Donate to Remove ads

Got a credit card? use our Credit Card & Finance Calculators

Thanks to johnstevens77,Bhoddhisatva,scotia,Anonymous,Cornytiv34, for Donating to support the site

Money and assets

including wills and probate
Raine100
Posts: 3
Joined: October 25th, 2021, 11:10 pm

Money and assets

#453043

Postby Raine100 » October 25th, 2021, 11:15 pm

My recent discovery of executor of my late aunt’s estate has uncovered money in boxes around the house. My solicitor wants paper work to state where the money has come from but there is no link to my aunt’s bank accounts and this money accumulated over time. It’s in the region of £20,000 - what happens next? She wasn’t in receipt of benefits - what happens to this money if I can’t prove where it’s come from!?

Steveam
Lemon Slice
Posts: 974
Joined: March 18th, 2017, 10:22 pm
Has thanked: 1745 times
Been thanked: 534 times

Re: Money and assets

#453081

Postby Steveam » October 26th, 2021, 7:28 am

The solicitor is required to consider issues such as money laundering and one way to do this is to make enquiries about large amounts of cash - generally seen as a bit of a red flag - but the solicitor can and should use this only as an indication. The solicitor can and should consider all the circumstances and then make a (reasoned) decision as to whether the circumstances should be reported to the authorities.

You should answer the solicitor’s questions as well as you can but it’s well worth having a conversation or providing information that, for example, pensions had been withdrawn weekly in cash and not spent.

Even should the solicitor report this you will not lose out unless some wrong doing is found (unlikely to be money laundering but possibly hidden assets although you say no benefits were being claimed).

Don’t be concerned/blame the solicitor. They are just doing their job and, quite reasonably, protecting their position. Unfortunately £20,000 really is too large to be ignored.

Best wishes,

Steve

pochisoldi
Lemon Slice
Posts: 940
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:33 am
Has thanked: 31 times
Been thanked: 462 times

Re: Money and assets

#453090

Postby pochisoldi » October 26th, 2021, 8:11 am

A statutory declaration by the discoverer of the cash, describing how and where the money was found, and what was found?

A statutory declaration is the usual way to evidence facts which has no documentary evidence (e.g. "I declare that I have used the alleyway at the rear of Smith Street to access my back garden for 20 years")

Also it might be useful to describe the notes: paper or plastic, and (for paper) which design - if there are wedges of paper £10 and/or £20 notes with an older design this would give an indication of how long ago the notes were stashed.

For example piles of plastic £20 notes indicates money accumulated since Feb 2020.
A pile of notes containing Elgar and Adam Smith notes would date the pile to the period between 2007 and 2010.
An Adam Smith only pile: 2007 to 2020.

Despite the novelty for the solicitor, this won't have been the first time an executor has found money under a mattress, and the solicitor either needs to start using their legal research skills to come up with a solution, or someone more competent needs to be instructed in their place.

swill453
Lemon Half
Posts: 7962
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 6:11 pm
Has thanked: 984 times
Been thanked: 3643 times

Re: Money and assets

#453091

Postby swill453 » October 26th, 2021, 8:27 am

Raine100 wrote:My recent discovery of executor of my late aunt’s estate

I don't understand this phrase. Are you the executor, or is the solicitor the executor?

If it's you, then tell the solicitor to get on with the specific tasks you have assigned them, and not bother you with questions you can't answer.

Scott.

mutantpoodle
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1007
Joined: November 7th, 2016, 4:21 pm
Has thanked: 509 times
Been thanked: 122 times

Re: Money and assets

#453092

Postby mutantpoodle » October 26th, 2021, 8:29 am

qqq...Despite the novelty for the solicitor, this won't have been the first time an executor has found money under a mattress, and the solicitor either needs to start using their legal research skills to come up with a solution, or someone more competent needs to be instructed in their place.
uuqq

might not be the first time an executor has found cash...but I bet not many declare it and pay due IHT on it!
(obviously I dont suggest executor keeps the cash...just doesnt include it in assets)

didds
Lemon Half
Posts: 5244
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 12:04 pm
Has thanked: 3244 times
Been thanked: 1018 times

Re: Money and assets

#453093

Postby didds » October 26th, 2021, 8:31 am

This is my own naivety of course, and I also appreciate that for many people I may now be sounding very middle calss or similar, but 20K isn't THAT much money really.

ANALOGY : We are having a lot of work done on the house currently - chiefly external woodwork, that mainly because we broke ourselves buying it, we did very little with. The work will come to around 20K - but that I rationalised a couple fo weeks ago, is "only" 1K a year to keep a 1926 house in tip top condition. Which breaks down to about £20 a week. If instead of buying fags, a takeaway pizza, a mid week pub trip, etc etc etc one stuck that £20 a week in a box under the bed, in twenty years you've got 20K. (Im just ignoring inflation - stay with me here :-) )
As it is that 20K has actually necome available for this work becasue we paid off the mortgage two years ago - and I've been sticking the previous mortgage payments into a side account for exactly this sort of project. So two years of mortgage payments equates to 20K ... not really a long time to gather that level of cash that dependent on levels of income of course)

In essence ignoring my rubbish analogy above, 20K in a shoebox, squirrelled over a few decades maybe isnt really anything amazing...

I'll shut up now!

didds

Raine100
Posts: 3
Joined: October 25th, 2021, 11:10 pm

Re: Money and assets

#453120

Postby Raine100 » October 26th, 2021, 10:06 am

Thank you all for taking the time to respond. I’ll make myself clearer- I am not blaming the solicitor whatsoever, I was just taken aback when asked to prove where the money has come from as there is no paperwork to do this. The solicitor wants paperwork so that’s why I’ve come to the forum to seek advice as to what happens if I don’t have any paperwork. I’ve asked the solicitor this but they have not got back to me as of yet. Someone on the forum didn’t understand my poorly worded introduction - I am the executor.

Raine100
Posts: 3
Joined: October 25th, 2021, 11:10 pm

Re: Money and assets

#453122

Postby Raine100 » October 26th, 2021, 10:08 am

swill453 wrote:
Raine100 wrote:My recent discovery of executor of my late aunt’s estate

I don't understand this phrase. Are you the executor, or is the solicitor the executor?

If it's you, then tell the solicitor to get on with the specific tasks you have assigned them, and not bother you with questions you can't answer.

Scott.


Was supposed to have put ‘ my recent discovery AS executor of my late aunt’s estate

Dod101
The full Lemon
Posts: 16629
Joined: October 10th, 2017, 11:33 am
Has thanked: 4343 times
Been thanked: 7534 times

Re: Money and assets

#453139

Postby Dod101 » October 26th, 2021, 10:46 am

pochisoldi wrote:A statutory declaration by the discoverer of the cash, describing how and where the money was found, and what was found?

A statutory declaration is the usual way to evidence facts which has no documentary evidence (e.g. "I declare that I have used the alleyway at the rear of Smith Street to access my back garden for 20 years")

Also it might be useful to describe the notes: paper or plastic, and (for paper) which design - if there are wedges of paper £10 and/or £20 notes with an older design this would give an indication of how long ago the notes were stashed.

For example piles of plastic £20 notes indicates money accumulated since Feb 2020.
A pile of notes containing Elgar and Adam Smith notes would date the pile to the period between 2007 and 2010.
An Adam Smith only pile: 2007 to 2020.

Despite the novelty for the solicitor, this won't have been the first time an executor has found money under a mattress, and the solicitor either needs to start using their legal research skills to come up with a solution, or someone more competent needs to be instructed in their place.


A statutory declaration surely does not prove where the money came from. Can the OP discover for instance that the deceased went to the local Posy office every week or every month and collected her State pension in cash? Over three years or so that could easily amount to £20,000. Is it the solicitors problem anyway? If the OP is the sole executor then the solicitor is simply being employed and surely the responsibility would fall on the executor?

Of course the easy way would have been not to have disclosed the cash in the first place although £20,000 is getting on for the sort of sum that could for some people make a big difference to their lives. A bit late for that now I know but it is not ion the least unusual to find after someone has died that there is cash stashed around the house.

Dod

Watis
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1404
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 10:53 am
Has thanked: 352 times
Been thanked: 489 times

Re: Money and assets

#453146

Postby Watis » October 26th, 2021, 10:58 am

Dod101 wrote:
pochisoldi wrote:A statutory declaration by the discoverer of the cash, describing how and where the money was found, and what was found?

A statutory declaration is the usual way to evidence facts which has no documentary evidence (e.g. "I declare that I have used the alleyway at the rear of Smith Street to access my back garden for 20 years")

Also it might be useful to describe the notes: paper or plastic, and (for paper) which design - if there are wedges of paper £10 and/or £20 notes with an older design this would give an indication of how long ago the notes were stashed.

For example piles of plastic £20 notes indicates money accumulated since Feb 2020.
A pile of notes containing Elgar and Adam Smith notes would date the pile to the period between 2007 and 2010.
An Adam Smith only pile: 2007 to 2020.

Despite the novelty for the solicitor, this won't have been the first time an executor has found money under a mattress, and the solicitor either needs to start using their legal research skills to come up with a solution, or someone more competent needs to be instructed in their place.


A statutory declaration surely does not prove where the money came from. Can the OP discover for instance that the deceased went to the local Posy office every week or every month and collected her State pension in cash? Over three years or so that could easily amount to £20,000. Is it the solicitors problem anyway? If the OP is the sole executor then the solicitor is simply being employed and surely the responsibility would fall on the executor?

Of course the easy way would have been not to have disclosed the cash in the first place although £20,000 is getting on for the sort of sum that could for some people make a big difference to their lives. A bit late for that now I know but it is not ion the least unusual to find after someone has died that there is cash stashed around the house.

Dod



Money laundering regulations require the solicitor to be able to demonstrate that he has taken whatever steps he deems necessary to satisfy himself that the money has not been acquired as the result of money laundering. The statutory declaration proposed by pochisoldi may be sufficient but, as IANAL, I can't answer this aspect of the issue.

Watis

sg31
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1543
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:35 am
Has thanked: 925 times
Been thanked: 708 times

Re: Money and assets

#453159

Postby sg31 » October 26th, 2021, 11:25 am

My father left a lot of cash in the house. In his later years he was housebound, my sister and I did his shopping for him and looked after him, most of the time we provided what he needed and never asked for payment. He always wanted his pension drawing in cash and he 'put it in a safe place'.

He suffered from dementia so money meant nothing to him, he didn't know the difference between a pound and a penny. We had enough to do looking after his needs with him being bedbound much of the time and being double incontinent, we never considered the money.

I can well understand the situation the OP has described, I'm surprised the solicitor hasn't come across this before. Maybe it's because a lot of people would just deal with the matter themselves.

pochisoldi
Lemon Slice
Posts: 940
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:33 am
Has thanked: 31 times
Been thanked: 462 times

Re: Money and assets

#453162

Postby pochisoldi » October 26th, 2021, 11:32 am

Dod101 wrote:A statutory declaration surely does not prove where the money came from.


Exactly - if you have better evidence of provenance, then the declaration wouldn't be needed. You use one as a last resort.

Statutory declarations are sworn statements.
They're a way of adducing evidence that only exists in the head of a person.

Make a deliberately false one, and you are looking at a perjury charge.
Make a carelessly false one, and the perception of one's reliability takes a hammering.

Dod101
The full Lemon
Posts: 16629
Joined: October 10th, 2017, 11:33 am
Has thanked: 4343 times
Been thanked: 7534 times

Re: Money and assets

#453168

Postby Dod101 » October 26th, 2021, 11:39 am

pochisoldi wrote:
Dod101 wrote:A statutory declaration surely does not prove where the money came from.


Exactly - if you have better evidence of provenance, then the declaration wouldn't be needed. You use one as a last resort.

Statutory declarations are sworn statements.
They're a way of adducing evidence that only exists in the head of a person.

Make a deliberately false one, and you are looking at a perjury charge.
Make a carelessly false one, and the perception of one's reliability takes a hammering.


Yes I know that. I just wonder why a statutory disclosure of where the money was found would satisfy money laundering regulations. I suppose it is then up to the solicitor to decide whether in these circumstances, it is likely that the deceased was for instance a drug dealer. is that the point?

Dod

Lootman
The full Lemon
Posts: 18681
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 3:58 pm
Has thanked: 628 times
Been thanked: 6563 times

Re: Money and assets

#453215

Postby Lootman » October 26th, 2021, 1:28 pm

Dod101 wrote:Of course the easy way would have been not to have disclosed the cash in the first place although £20,000 is getting on for the sort of sum that could for some people make a big difference to their lives. A bit late for that now I know but it is not ion the least unusual to find after someone has died that there is cash stashed around the house.

Yes, I am fairly sure as an executor in that situation I would probably keep quiet about the cash, and then distribute it privately to the beneficiaries outside of the probate process, in the same way as I might with other physical assets that are not itemised in probate.

An exception would be if I had reason to believe that the cash was stuffed in a mattress for the express purpose of avoiding IHT although, in that case, I probably would renounce the executorship anyway rather than get involved. But £20,000 doesn't rise to that level and some people like to have cash around the house - I usually have a few thousand in my safe "just in case".

Too late for discretion now, as you say. But this kind of hassle and paranoia over cash is probably only going to get worse over time, which might just be why crypto is becoming so popular.

Clitheroekid
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2856
Joined: November 6th, 2016, 9:58 pm
Has thanked: 1384 times
Been thanked: 3771 times

Re: Money and assets

#453247

Postby Clitheroekid » October 26th, 2021, 2:59 pm

Raine100 wrote:My recent discovery of executor of my late aunt’s estate has uncovered money in boxes around the house. My solicitor wants paper work to state where the money has come from but there is no link to my aunt’s bank accounts and this money accumulated over time. It’s in the region of £20,000 - what happens next? She wasn’t in receipt of benefits - what happens to this money if I can’t prove where it’s come from!?

Your solicitor may want paperwork to state where the money's come from but if there isn't any then you can't produce it.

It's really not your problem. You've disclosed the existence of the cash, and it's for the solicitor to decide whether or not to make a SAR (Suspicious Activity Report). He will have to use his common sense and judgment to take a view as to whether there's any evidence that the cash is the proceeds of crime. If there is no such evidence then he doesn't need to make a SAR and it can just be dealt with as one of the estate assets.

In any event, its existence will be disclosed when the Inland Revenue Account is filed for probate purposes, so HMRC will find out about it then, and can investigate if they're so inclined (which they almost certainly won't be).

A statutory declaration by the discoverer of the cash, describing how and where the money was found, and what was found?

There's really no need for this. It's not your job to second guess what evidence the solicitor wants. In any event, it's not the facts surrounding the discovery of the cash that matter, it's where the cash originally came from that's important.

(It's also worth mentioning that statutory declarations are rapidly becoming obsolete, having been replaced by statements verified by a statement of truth, which have the same legal effect but without the faff of having to get it sworn in front of a solicitor.)

Yes, I am fairly sure as an executor in that situation I would probably keep quiet about the cash, and then distribute it privately to the beneficiaries outside of the probate process,

If you fail to disclose the cash in the Inland Revenue Account then you are committing a criminal offence, by knowingly submitting a false statement to the court. If the estate is subject to inheritance tax (or would be if the cash were to be included) then you're also committing tax evasion. Not recommended.

Lootman
The full Lemon
Posts: 18681
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 3:58 pm
Has thanked: 628 times
Been thanked: 6563 times

Re: Money and assets

#453253

Postby Lootman » October 26th, 2021, 3:16 pm

Clitheroekid wrote:
Yes, I am fairly sure as an executor in that situation I would probably keep quiet about the cash, and then distribute it privately to the beneficiaries outside of the probate process,

If you fail to disclose the cash in the Inland Revenue Account then you are committing a criminal offence, by knowingly submitting a false statement to the court. If the estate is subject to inheritance tax (or would be if the cash were to be included) then you're also committing tax evasion. Not recommended.

Just to be clear, I meant that only as a way of avoiding the ridiculously invasive questions about cash stuffed into a mattress.

If IHT was an issue, which wasn't mentioned in this case, then you could always add the value of the cash to the declaration of value for chattels, which was implied by the part of my sentence that you omitted to requote: "in the same way as I might with other physical assets that are not itemised in probate."

Clitheroekid
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2856
Joined: November 6th, 2016, 9:58 pm
Has thanked: 1384 times
Been thanked: 3771 times

Re: Money and assets

#453284

Postby Clitheroekid » October 26th, 2021, 5:28 pm

Lootman wrote:If IHT was an issue, which wasn't mentioned in this case, then you could always add the value of the cash to the declaration of value for chattels, which was implied by the part of my sentence that you omitted to requote: "in the same way as I might with other physical assets that are not itemised in probate."

There are separate sections in the IRA for cash and chattels, and if it's a potentially taxable estate you also have to identify individual chattels of any value.

I'd think the reason for this is because HMRC would want to know about any stashes of cash, as it may well be a red flag for further investigation.

I would therefore reiterate that to deliberately overvalue chattels by £20k and to fail to declare cash of £20k would be to knowingly submit a false statement (with apologies for the multiple split infinitives! ;-))

scrumpyjack
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4814
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 10:15 am
Has thanked: 606 times
Been thanked: 2675 times

Re: Money and assets

#453292

Postby scrumpyjack » October 26th, 2021, 5:55 pm

If you can demonstrate that the cash had been accumulated over many years, being made up of different age banknotes, 20k is not an unaccountably large amount. She may just have kept 10 percent of her pension in cash over many years and have been an eccentric old lady. That would be a reasonable explanation if there are no concrete reasons to think it incorrect.

Lootman
The full Lemon
Posts: 18681
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 3:58 pm
Has thanked: 628 times
Been thanked: 6563 times

Re: Money and assets

#453295

Postby Lootman » October 26th, 2021, 6:13 pm

scrumpyjack wrote:If you can demonstrate that the cash had been accumulated over many years, being made up of different age banknotes, 20k is not an unaccountably large amount. She may just have kept 10 percent of her pension in cash over many years and have been an eccentric old lady. That would be a reasonable explanation if there are no concrete reasons to think it incorrect.

Or to put it another way, if the estate is large enough to attract IHT then £20,000 is not a lot in percentage terms (6% or less), and therefore should not warrant adverse scrutiny. Whilst if £20,000 is most of the value of the estate, then the estate is not large enough for anyone to care anyway - indeed I would not have thought that probate would be needed at all for such a small estate.

I have to say I greatly dislike the presumption that if you have custody of a large amount of cash that the onus is somehow on you to prove that you came by it legitimately. The burden of proof should be on the authorities to prove that you didn't. It is not a crime to hold cash; it is legal tender.

DrFfybes
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3731
Joined: November 6th, 2016, 10:25 pm
Has thanked: 1171 times
Been thanked: 1964 times

Re: Money and assets

#453815

Postby DrFfybes » October 28th, 2021, 10:48 am

scrumpyjack wrote:If you can demonstrate that the cash had been accumulated over many years, being made up of different age banknotes, 20k is not an unaccountably large amount. She may just have kept 10 percent of her pension in cash over many years and have been an eccentric old lady. That would be a reasonable explanation if there are no concrete reasons to think it incorrect.


Mum used to live on her investment income and State Pension, but get her £70/week disabled living allowance into the Post Office, and then once a month take £2-300 out in cash and shove it in a drawer 'just in case'. When we got her a safe a few years ago she wandered around and collated it all into the safe. There was over £9k, plus nearly £3k still in the post office. She split it with me and my sister, and over the next few years we got an Xmas bundle, but otherwise that could easily have been £20k by the time she took ill 18 months ago.

Ironically it has nearly all gone back in care fees since then.

Paul


Return to “Legal Issues (Practical)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests