Estate executor heel-dragging?

[TedSwippet]

We'll see how they respond -- or perhaps more accurately, if they respond! -- to the complaint, I guess.

Complaint filed on 15 Oct. Acknowledgement received on 21 Oct. Email received on 5 Nov suggesting I might receive some form of response "next week". Since then, nothing, despite prompting from me.

That makes eight weeks since filing the complaint with no response. After that period, the case can now be referred to the Legal Ombudsman. So I guess that will have to be the next step. We are not talking about a one-man band solicitor practice here either. According to their company profile, this solicitor group has over 100 employees and sales close to £7mm. It is pretty shocking that they cannot muster the resources to handle even the simpler parts of this complaint (what is the current status of the matter? where is the money held? and so on), never mind the questions in it that they will find much more awkward.

I am not one to place much credence in online reviews. However, the Trustpilot and Google reviews for the Legal Ombudsman paint one of the bleakest pictures I have ever seen regarding a service organisation (and quite possible, any organisation). And by the Legal Ombudsman's own admission, it will likely take between nine months and a year to even get their attention to the point for an investigation to begin. Depressingly useless, considering that the aim here is to get things moving at the solicitor group.

The other avenue I looked at is the Solicitors Regulation Authority. At first blush, the behaviour of the solicitor group I'm dealing with contravenes several of their code of conduct clauses. At minimum, 3.2, 3.5(b), 8.4, and perhaps also 3.6. However, it is unclear to me whether the Solicitors Regulation Authority would take this on, or whether they would instead just slope shoulders and shunt to the Legal Ombudsman. Does failure to follow the code of conduct raise to the level of "break our rules"? Don't know.

Does anyone here have any inside knowledge or other ideas of how to move this forwards?

Removing these solicitors from the case and then following up by taking some form of legal action against them for their incompetence seems drastic, but I'm currently out of better ideas.

[Clitheroekid]

[I am not one to place much credence in online reviews. However, the Trustpilot and Google reviews for the Legal Ombudsman paint one of the bleakest pictures I have ever seen regarding a service organisation (and quite possible, any organisation). And by the Legal Ombudsman's own admission, it will likely take between nine months and a year to even get their attention to the point for an investigation to begin. Depressingly useless, considering that the aim here is to get things moving at the solicitor group.

Yes, the Legal Ombudsman (LeO) is a shambles. However, it's not a black and white process. It's not just a matter of making a complaint and then waiting 18 months for a result.

Once the complaint has been made and the solicitors are notified about it they will be under severe pressure to resolve the matter long before LeO has to make a decision.

If they fail to rectify the problem it will mean that any penalty / compensation order imposed by LeO will be more severe. I would expect that the large majority of LeO complaints are dealt with by the solicitors resolving the problem relatively quickly and the client accepting the outcome.

The other avenue I looked at is the Solicitors Regulation Authority.

Forget it. They only deal with disciplinary matters - the conduct would have to be far more serious than just poor service for them to get involved. That's why LeO exists - to deal with matters that are outside the remit of the SRA.

[TedSwippet]

Once the [Legal Ombudsman] complaint has been made and the solicitors are notified about it they will be under severe pressure to resolve the matter long before LeO has to make a decision.

Thank you. Presumably, the pressure comes from notification sent by the Legal Ombudsman, not just by me? Of course, I'll email the solicitor to indicate that I've raised the complaint with LeO, but if it takes LeO months or years to formally notify the solicitor, my words might not count for much.

An additional complication is that I am handling this on behalf of my mother, who is knocking on the door of 90 years old. She absolutely does not want to get involved in this mess (and frankly, could not really handle it -- she does not do email, and is vague on the phone). My mother is the beneficiary; I am not. LeO insists it can only accept complaints from beneficiaries or executors, and I am neither.

I am a named attorney on my mother's LPA, which I think should suffice. I also have a short signed letter from my mother indicating that she is happy for me to deal with this specific matter in her place and with/by whomever. It is however unclear what of these LeO would actually need in order to accept a complaint from me. I asked them directly by email some weeks ago. No answer, of course.

If they fail to rectify the problem it will mean that any penalty / compensation order imposed by LeO will be more severe. I would expect that the large majority of LeO complaints are dealt with by the solicitors resolving the problem relatively quickly and the client accepting the outcome.

Thanks again. I guess we will see. I had anticipated that receipt of a formal complaint from me might spur the solicitor into some form of action, since it is clearly the first step towards something more assertive, but apparently not. Shrug.

Forget it. They [Solicitors Regulation Authority] only deal with disciplinary matters - the conduct would have to be far more serious than just poor service for them to get involved. That's why LeO exists - to deal with matters that are outside the remit of the SRA.

Ah, right. As I thought, then. Unfortunate, given that LeO is so messed up.

I guess there is no harm in at least suggesting to the solicitor that they have failed to live up to several clauses of the SRA's Code of Practice? Objectively, in the case of clauses 8.4 (no response, so clearly complete failure to resolve complaint within eight weeks) and 8.5 (complaint not dealt with promptly), and subjectively for several others.

[ReformedCharacter]

LeO insists it can only accept complaints from beneficiaries or executors, and I am neither.

I made a complaint to the LeO on behalf of my niece about 5 years ago. The complaint was eventually dismissed by the LeO but there was no objection to me acting on my niece's behalf.

RC

[Dod101]

With a PoA there can be no objection to your acting on your mother's behalf. That is what it is for.

OTOH I would now remove the case from the current solicitors but you will need to know who you will place the case with. Ask around friends acquaintances, local legal firms etc. Some local firms at least will probably be happy to take it on in order to gain a client but some no doubt will decline as it will probably be too messy. Have you asked to speak to the senior partner of the current firm?

Dod

[TedSwippet]

With a PoA there can be no objection to your acting on your mother's behalf. That is what it is for.

Looks that way. Thank you.

I've had the paperwork on the bookshelf for more than a decade, and always thought there needed to be some 'trigger' to activate it, but it seems not. I have not had cause to use it before, so never investigated beyond a cursory glance. Apparently I've been good to go all along, then.

I would now remove the case from the current solicitors but you will need to know who you will place the case with. Ask around friends acquaintances, local legal firms etc. Some local firms at least will probably be happy to take it on in order to gain a client but some no doubt will decline as it will probably be too messy.

I would have thought the initial case was clean enough, so presumably you mean the mess that the current solicitor may have created?

Certainly a good idea to ask around locally, with a view to taking the whole thing out of their hands, but I'm conflicted over whether this might not actually slow things down if we're close to the finishing line. Very hard to tell, unfortunately. Not least because the current shower are not forthcoming with any useful information.

Have you asked to speak to the senior partner of the current firm?

I haven't, but if I did I'd probably get no reply. This seems to be their MO.

Beyond that, it's a little hard to identify the individual from the outside. I found a named "Compliance officer for legal practice". Perhaps them? The SRA's description of a "COLP" doesn't quite seem to fit the bill.

Anyway, things to pursue after I've formalised a LeO complaint, I think. I can't imagine any response from the solicitor sufficient to now forestall that.

[Dod101]

No, were I you I would act now. No matter if it slows things down. From what you have said that would be difficult and a new firm is surely likely to want to create a good impression or they would not take on the case, as they will know that it has a messy history. Anyway, I would certainly ask to speak to the senior partner first. You will then know whether you should stay with them or go somewhere else. Obviously, to me, anyway, if you think/know you will get no response, then extract the case from them. You are paying them. They are not doing you a favour, which is the way that some clients seem to think when dealing with the law!

Dod

[TedSwippet]

No, were I you I would act now. No matter if it slows things down. From what you have said that would be difficult and a new firm is surely likely to want to create a good impression or they would not take on the case, as they will know that it has a messy history.

LeO complain filed. Clock started on yet another long wait, then, I guess. On the above, I have identified a couple of potential local candidates who might be willing to take this one.

My worry though, is that this somehow exceeds my authority. I was handed this affair two years into it, third hand, and cannot even adequately find a title for my role in it. My mother was the only individual who knew the deceased personally, and even there contact was remote (occasional, phone only) for decades. I do not know who appointed the current solicitor as executor, or when; it would not have been my mother. Maybe a hospice or funeral director?

Somehow though, my mother became the solicitor's primary contact for this matter. My mother and my aunt are cousins of the deceased, and beneficiaries known to me, but there are potentially around eight or ten other cousin beneficiaries on a distant side of the family that none of us have ever had anything to do with, or even knew about until the family tree started emerging. For them, this inheritance will come entirely out of the blue.

So far, nothing I have done has increased any costs to the estate, or added to delays in winding it up. However, unilaterally deciding to move the work to a different solicitor would. In the worst case, this could I suppose be construed as a net negative by one of the other beneficiaries. Particularly if the whole affair is on the cusp of conclusion anyway (which it might or might not be; no way of telling with a solicitor as uncommunicative as this one). I'm a bit reluctant to open myself up to that possibility.

[TedSwippet]

Some movement, though limited.

It is more than four months since I complained to the solicitor, and so far only partial resolution. They have finally admitted to one eight month delay, and are on the verge of admitting to a second six or seven month one, so total delays attributable to their inaction come to well over a year. This on top of scandalously poor complaints handling, never mind their general lack of responses and other past dilatory actions.

On the first delay, they have offered a contingent 'goodwill' payment of £200. That suggests that they might increase this to £400 or so when the second is confirmed (I have no doubt it will be). They state that the estate money is being kept in an interest bearing account.

My sense is that this compensation is too low, but what would be a reasonable amount to accept?

Ordinarily I would base financial restitution estimates on the interest that has been lost directly to beneficiaries, say 0.5% over 14 months. This would total well over £3,000 on the size of estate we're talking about. They haven't stated the interest rate they have on the account that holds this money though, so until that's known it's hard to quantify; it probably won't be any form of high interest account, maybe even just BoE base rate. Perhaps half, so £1,500?

As for general compensation for inconvenience and so on, LeO guidance put this at (I think) the upper end of "Significant award", so £750 or so. In the past, LeO decided that a two-month delay warranted a £250 payment, so on that scale £750 for a delay that is seven times longer seems if anything low.

On these numbers then, I might be looking for around than £2,250. Against the solicitor's (potential) £400, that puts us a long way apart. Without agreement at this stage, we're left waiting on LeO, which will add months if not years to the whole saga.

Does anyone have any better suggestions for how to frame the decision over whether or not to accept a solicitor's offer of compensation?

For completeness, my LeO complaint is (presumably) still somewhere in LeO's interminable processes. More than two months since filed, and so far nothing at all from them.

[Boots]

Apologies if you have already discussed this. I would want to see a detailed itemised interim statement of account, with dates. They clearly will be reluctant to give that. But if you can get it, I would be looking to eliminate all charges during the periods of delay, plus some modest compensation.

The interest bearing account is a easy line they trot out. 0.01% is an interest rate, but if you could demonstrate what you might have earned over the period with other investments you hold, you will be in a stronger position.

Good luck!

[GoSeigen]

As a first demand, I'd go for 8% interest, or whatever the standard rate applied to debts by the courts currently is. For comparison, my long term investment return is close to 12% after tax, expenses and inflation, while I borrow at around 9%, and credit card rates sit at 18% or more. I don't think you should accept the exceptionally anomalous low savings/risk-free rates of very recent years.


GS

[Dod101]

£200 as compensation is almost an insult and bear in mind that they will probably add that sort of money to their fee anyway because you will be unable to identify it. Have you got any timescale from them as to when the matter can be concluded?

CK ought to be your man if he is willing to give advice but I would have thought that you want to get your position properly clarified and either really get into this matter or not and if not just tell everyone involved that you are backing off. (It does not sound as if you can resign as you do not appear to be officially appointed) If you are not named as an executor nor a beneficiary you could step back with a clear conscience.

Dod

[TedSwippet]

Apologies if you have already discussed this. I would want to see a detailed itemised interim statement of account, with dates. They clearly will be reluctant to give that. But if you can get it, I would be looking to eliminate all charges during the periods of delay, plus some modest compensation.

Ordinarily, yes. However, the solicitor here is working at a fixed price; the tranches of work farmed out to the title research company are charged to the estate as 'disbursements'. So in that sense, they're not really charging for the delay; at least, not explicitly.

The interest bearing account is a easy line they trot out. 0.01% is an interest rate, but if you could demonstrate what you might have earned over the period with other investments you hold, you will be in a stronger position.

I'm pretty sure the interest the solicitor is receiving will be well short of the interest any of the beneficiaries could achieve through simple open-market instant access accounts, never mind any more adventurous investment options. The key to this will I think be uncovering what rate is currently being paid back into the estate's funds, and working up from that.

As a first demand, I'd go for 8% interest, or whatever the standard rate applied to debts by the courts currently is. For comparison, my long term investment return is close to 12% after tax, expenses and inflation, while I borrow at around 9%, and credit card rates sit at 18% or more. I don't think you should accept the exceptionally anomalous low savings/risk-free rates of very recent years.

LeO's standard procedure -- that is, if they ever wake up and do anything -- is to restore you to the position you would have been in if not for solicitor negligence. I'd love to ask for 8%, but it feels unrealistic. I'm doubtful that LeO would wear that rate, or anything even close to it. And this would be tens of thousands of pounds. It is perhaps arguable that it could indeed represent the actual cumulative loss to beneficiaries, but that seems like a tough sell.

£200 as compensation is almost an insult and bear in mind that they will probably add that sort of money to their fee anyway because you will be unable to identify it. Have you got any timescale from them as to when the matter can be concluded?

Absolutely an insult, I'd say. As already noted though, the solicitor's fee is fixed upfront. They could I suppose hide some added costs as 'disbursements', but to be honest that seems unlikely; too easy to uncover. As for timescales, that's all down to the title research company -- who also appear slow -- and the solicitor has refused to comment on 'third party' issues. Reasonable I suppose (though a guess would be nice, no matter how vague).

CK ought to be your man if he is willing to give advice but I would have thought that you want to get your position properly clarified and either really get into this matter or not and if not just tell everyone involved that you are backing off. (It does not sound as if you can resign as you do not appear to be officially appointed) If you are not named as an executor nor a beneficiary you could step back with a clear conscience.

Personally no vested interest, so yes, I could pass this on to someone else. However, I'm unlikely find anyone with the willingness/tenacity to stick at it to the extent needed, and having got this far and with all the history I have with it, I'm probably the best person to carry it forwards to some form of completion anyway.

They do seem to (finally) have accepted that since I have POA for a beneficiary, I am to be taken seriously. And honestly, at this point it's becoming a bit of a 'grudge match'. The longer it goes on, the more I'm inclined to take this to the bitter end if only for the sheer satisfaction of winning.

[TedSwippet]

The solicitor has, finally (some ten months after complaint) come up with a proposed compensation amount. Their full offer, based on fourteen months of delays added by them due to mishandling, amounts to just under 0.1% of the estate's value. They based this on the UK base interest rate in effect at the time they caused these delays, 0.1%, less the 0.01% interest they receive in interest from the bank holding the estate cash.

This again seems insulting. It is deficient in several ways.

Firstly, LeO guidance indicates "We always seek to return customers to the position they would have been in if the service hadn’t been poor." Even if the money is paid out today -- and we are of course still waiting, so that's not going to happen -- the weighted average UK base interest rate over the past fourteen months, which is the period over which beneficiaries would have been deprived of access, is above 0.5%. So the solicitor's offer should be at least five times what they propose. And this is without taking into account that individuals can easily find accounts paying more than the base rate of interest. And that interest rates are rising fast even as the beneficiaries have still not received any money.

Secondly, the same guidance suggests payment for "inconvenience", ranging from £250 to £750 for "significant inconvenience". I'd say this qualifies as significant. Now, there are at least ten beneficiaries. And I'd argue that each has been "significantly inconvenienced". Taken at face value then, that adds a further £2,500 in compensation. Asking for this seems entirely reasonable; just not sure if it's feasible.

And finally(*), again from the guidance, the potential for a reduction in fees. The estate has paid more than £7,500 (flat fee) to the solicitor. It's hard to conclude that what we received represents value for money to date.

So ... now seeking perhaps around £5,000-£8,000 in restitution, where the solicitor is offering £475. We're a loooong way apart. I imagine then that this will go the bitter end of the LeO process. And that is not exactly fast either; registered in Dec 21, and still probably at least year away from the front of their queue. But then, until the estate is finalised and beneficiaries paid, it will not be possible to calculate the compensation based on interest. What is happening though, is that since this is a fourteen month rolling period, with each day that passes where beneficiaries are not paid, a day is removed from a low interest segment and added to a higher interest one. In that sense, the compensation expected from the solicitor increases as time goes on.

Did I miss any opportunities to stick it further to this solicitor group?

What a royal pain this has been. Title Research is slow and inefficient, but the solicitor group running the show is a shambles.


(*) Actually, the guidance also suggests "an apology". No chance. I've not even received an explanation. I'll pass anyway. If they sent one, I cannot imagine it would other than a weaselly political one. A "we're sorry you feel that ..." type of thing.

[GoSeigen]

The solicitor has, finally (some ten months after complaint) come up with a proposed compensation amount. Their full offer, based on fourteen months of delays added by them due to mishandling, amounts to just under 0.1% of the estate's value. They based this on the UK base interest rate in effect at the time they caused these delays, 0.1%, less the 0.01% interest they receive in interest from the bank holding the estate cash.

This again seems insulting. It is deficient in several ways.

Firstly, LeO guidance indicates "We always seek to return customers to the position they would have been in if the service hadn’t been poor." Even if the money is paid out today -- and we are of course still waiting, so that's not going to happen -- the weighted average UK base interest rate over the past fourteen months, which is the period over which beneficiaries would have been deprived of access, is above 0.5%. So the solicitor's offer should be at least five times what they propose. And this is without taking into account that individuals can easily find accounts paying more than the base rate of interest. And that interest rates are rising fast even as the beneficiaries have still not received any money.

Secondly, the same guidance suggests payment for "inconvenience", ranging from £250 to £750 for "significant inconvenience". I'd say this qualifies as significant. Now, there are at least ten beneficiaries. And I'd argue that each has been "significantly inconvenienced". Taken at face value then, that adds a further £2,500 in compensation. Asking for this seems entirely reasonable; just not sure if it's feasible.

And finally(*), again from the guidance, the potential for a reduction in fees. The estate has paid more than £7,500 (flat fee) to the solicitor. It's hard to conclude that what we received represents value for money to date.

So ... now seeking perhaps around £5,000-£8,000 in restitution, where the solicitor is offering £475. We're a loooong way apart. I imagine then that this will go the bitter end of the LeO process. And that is not exactly fast either; registered in Dec 21, and still probably at least year away from the front of their queue. But then, until the estate is finalised and beneficiaries paid, it will not be possible to calculate the compensation based on interest. What is happening though, is that since this is a fourteen month rolling period, with each day that passes where beneficiaries are not paid, a day is removed from a low interest segment and added to a higher interest one. In that sense, the compensation expected from the solicitor increases as time goes on.

Did I miss any opportunities to stick it further to this solicitor group?

What a royal pain this has been. Title Research is slow and inefficient, but the solicitor group running the show is a shambles.


(*) Actually, the guidance also suggests "an apology". No chance. I've not even received an explanation. I'll pass anyway. If they sent one, I cannot imagine it would other than a weaselly political one. A "we're sorry you feel that ..." type of thing.

Do I understand that they still haven't distributed the funds but admit that their service has been poor and the payment is overdue? Have they made a commitment as to when the distributions will be made and what is causing any continued delay? [EDIT: sorry haven't read through the thread again, hoped you could just quickly confirm these points as of today.]

Is the compensation proposed a "without prejudice" offer?

GS

[TedSwippet]

Do I understand that they still haven't distributed the funds but admit that their service has been poor and the payment is overdue?

Yes. Specifically, they have admitted they added fourteen months of unnecessary delay to an already extremely slow process. The intrinsic slowness is due to research on the (unfortunately, fairly large) family tree, because the deceased was intestate. This research is still ongoing.

Have they made a commitment as to when the distributions will be made and what is causing any continued delay?

No timescale, but in fairness they cannot realistically provide one.

They engaged Title Research to create a complete list of beneficiaries. Once it has done this, they can then have insurance issued that will cover any 'unexpected' future beneficiaries. Only at that point can they pay out. So it all hinges on when Title Research sign off as completed; the final hurdle. And they have to wait for birth, marriage, and death certificates requested from sclerotic government departments. Slowness everywhere, then. (The lesson is: do not die intestate.)

Is the compensation proposed a "without prejudice" offer?

Not specifically. And although entirely without any expression of regret, or explanation, or any commitment to improvement in future, the plain text in the email seems fairly unambiguous in accepting their being the cause of added delay.

The fourteen month delay is the most specific portion of the complaint, since it is objective and quantifiable. There are several other subjective aspects. The solicitor group has been unresponsive and offhand throughout, uncooperative and borderline obstructive on occasions, and their formal complaint handling, at least in this case, has been abysmal. Harder to quantify appropriate compensation for these parts of the complaint, though.

[TedSwippet]

Sitrep. Solicitor group's "full and final" offer is 3x their first, and with a vague statement about using "bank of England base rates" for financial compensation.

However, I cannot accept that. Even if I wanted to, taking it would be a grave tactical error on my part. Until the estate monies are paid out, there is no way to quantify monetarily the actual financial loss (interest, opportunity cost, etc) to beneficiaries. Lowballing interest is one of the solicitor group's trademark activity. Poor service continues even ten months after a formal complaint; it was bad before, but if anything has worsened rather than improved. And accepting any offer at this stage will kill the LeO complaint, leaving me with absolutely no recourse to improve the offer of compensation should their incompetence add yet more unnecessary delays and future crappy (borderline nonexistent) service.

And so, it goes to the bitter end with the Legal Ombudsman after all. Nearly five years into the whole saga. And at least another year or so to wait, then.

[DrFfybes]

They engaged Title Research to create a complete list of beneficiaries. Once it has done this, they can then have insurance issued that will cover any 'unexpected' future beneficiaries. Only at that point can they pay out. So it all hinges on when Title Research sign off as completed; the final hurdle. And they have to wait for birth, marriage, and death certificates requested from sclerotic government departments. Slowness everywhere, then.

MrsF does a LOT of family research for herself and others.

Apparently the system is slower now, sometimes it can take up to a week to obtain a copy of a certificate, whereas it used to be 24-48 hours. Bearing in mind the ones she wants are from the late 1700s up to early 1900s, it seems surprising a professional firm should struggle any more than she does. The Govt site surrently says "certificate available within 4 working days of receipt of order".

Overseas certificates will obviously take longer.

Paul

[Dod101]

They engaged Title Research to create a complete list of beneficiaries. Once it has done this, they can then have insurance issued that will cover any 'unexpected' future beneficiaries. Only at that point can they pay out. So it all hinges on when Title Research sign off as completed; the final hurdle. And they have to wait for birth, marriage, and death certificates requested from sclerotic government departments. Slowness everywhere, then.

MrsF does a LOT of family research for herself and others.

Apparently the system is slower now, sometimes it can take up to a week to obtain a copy of a certificate, whereas it used to be 24-48 hours. Bearing in mind the ones she wants are from the late 1700s up to early 1900s, it seems surprising a professional firm should struggle any more than she does. The Govt site surrently says "certificate available within 4 working days of receipt of order".

Overseas certificates will obviously take longer.

Paul

Of course, if the ancestors had had the good sense to live in Scotland, it is all online.

Dod

[TedSwippet]

An interesting twist, as this saga now enters its sixth year without resolution.

After months of delay, the solicitor group finally provided the estate accounts. A bit of forensics on my part revealed that they appeared to have failed to collect over £100k of estate monies, in the form of a life insurance payout. Details are a bit convoluted, but what seems to have happened is that there was a successful insurance claim, and the insurance intermediary received the money, and then sent several repeated emails to the solicitor asking for details of the account into which to pay it, without receiving any reply. So they gave up. In the intermediary's words, "the payment was not made and the process could not be completed."

The good news is that it appears that this money is still collectable (pending some audit), seemingly languishing in some escrow account, so it shouldn't be entirely lost. However, it looks very much like it would never have reached the estate and the beneficiaries if I had not uncovered this error and then engaged directly with the insurance intermediary to find out the details.

To my mind, this goes well past solicitor group "poor service" and into "professional negligence".

The question is, then, what to do about it? Obviously, at minimum roll it into the ever-lengthening outstanding LeO complaint. I'm probably still a year or so away from the front of the LeO's queue, but with the possibility of negligence hanging in the air, taking any offer from the solicitor before LeO involvement now seems even more ill-advised than before. And that's without taking into account that the solicitor is still adding more unnecessary delays, obstruction, and laughably poor service into the process, even as the LeO complaint against them creeps forwards.

I really, really hate this solicitor group.