Redunadancy, tied accommodation question

[lizzydripin]

Well it has finally happened, OH has been made redundant, I think we knew it would happen someday. It means we lose nearly 2/3rds of our income plus our home.
My question is this the job also included a home that we have lived in for the past 27 years, there was never any documents or tenancy agreement when my OH saw a solicitor a couple of years ago, when we thought this might happen, he implied that this put us in a strong position, does anyone know if this is the case.
Lizzy D

[PinkDalek]

Well it has finally happened, OH has been made redundant, I think we knew it would happen someday. It means we lose nearly 2/3rds of our income plus our home.
My question is this the job also included a home that we have lived in for the past 27 years, there was never any documents or tenancy agreement when my OH saw a solicitor a couple of years ago, when we thought this might happen, he implied that this put us in a strong position, does anyone know if this is the case.
Lizzy D

Not an answer to your specific question but there's a brief guide from Shelter here Accommodation that comes with your job http://england.shelter.org.uk/housing_a ... h_your_job which might be worth a read generally until the experts arrive. It also links to Farm workers living in tied accommodation http://england.shelter.org.uk/housing_a ... ommodation if of relevance.

From the first link, was there anything in the employment contract (which, as they say, doesn't have to be in writing) regarding the accommodation?

It may help others if you go into more detail, prompted by the points made in the links, if you feel comfortable providing such detail.

[lizzydripin]

Hi Pinkdalek , Thank you, I hadn't even thought of that my head is all over the place. Apparently it is mentioned in his employment contract, he thinks it says something to the effect you can stay but at market rent which of course we will not be able to afford.
Thanks
Lizzy

[Clitheroekid]

Hi Lizzy, I'm sorry to hear of your situation.

Unfortunately, the advice on the Shelter website is - as one would expect - quite correct. A tenancy that is tied to employment is generally only as secure as the employment itself, and when the employment ends so does the tenancy.

You may want to consider whether the redundancy itself is fair though. Depending on the size of your OH's employer there are quite complicated procedures that have to be observed by an employer when selecting people for redundancy, and if they get it wrong (and many do) it may amount to unfair dismissal, entitling your OH to financial compensation or - probably better in your own case - reinstatement.

More importantly, if he does have a viable unfair dismissal claim he may be able to use it as a negotiating tool to be kept on.

Unfortunately, this is unlikely, so don't get your hopes up, but it would definitely be worth your OH obtaining some competent employment advice sooner rather than later.

[melonfool]

Can you say any more about the redundancy situation and how it has arisen? Also, how old is he?

Mel

[lizzydripin]

Hi

Clitheroekid, Thank you for the advice from shelter, I think we have no rights as far as the house is concerned and this is my biggest worry as it seems to be really hard to find landlords that except pets. To be honest if they reinstate OH I think we would just end up waiting for it to happen again, we have had the idea that he might be next since I was made redundant about 6 years ago now, they made several other people redundant in between, but we buried our heads in the sand and carried on. I would give anything to have things back how they were and OH have his job back but I do not think it will happen, and as the house is integral to the estate, I think they will just want us gone!

Melonfool, Thank you for asking, I was handed a letter for OH on Friday of last week, he was made redundant along with four of his colleagues, basically it was the operations team, the head gardner and a member of the office staff. There have been around 33ish redundancies in less than ten years including my own, from a staff of on average around 10- 12. OH is 53 years old and has worked for the Estate for around 22 years we have lived in the cottage for about 28 years, it was a rental when we first moved here but they kept reducing the rent instead of wage rises and then eventually they stopped it all together. We never had a tenancy agreement. But recently it was added to OHs employment contract. He had his first meeting on Monday of this week when they just reiterated what was in the letter and his second meeting will be next Monday we think his finish date will be Friday next week, although we are not sure how they will be able to cover some jobs that will need doing for next weekend. . This has all been done by an agent that was taken on by the charitable trust to do a strategic review in which It think the idea is that they now run everything. Not sure what else there is to tell apart from the fact that we are worried sick mostly because we will have now where to live and if OH find a similar role it is unlikely to be local and therefore I will be out of work.

Many thanks
Lizzy

[melonfool]

Hi

Clitheroekid, Thank you for the advice from shelter, I think we have no rights as far as the house is concerned and this is my biggest worry as it seems to be really hard to find landlords that except pets. To be honest if they reinstate OH I think we would just end up waiting for it to happen again, we have had the idea that he might be next since I was made redundant about 6 years ago now, they made several other people redundant in between, but we buried our heads in the sand and carried on. I would give anything to have things back how they were and OH have his job back but I do not think it will happen, and as the house is integral to the estate, I think they will just want us gone!

Melonfool, Thank you for asking, I was handed a letter for OH on Friday of last week, he was made redundant along with four of his colleagues, basically it was the operations team, the head gardner and a member of the office staff. There have been around 33ish redundancies in less than ten years including my own, from a staff of on average around 10- 12. OH is 53 years old and has worked for the Estate for around 22 years we have lived in the cottage for about 28 years, it was a rental when we first moved here but they kept reducing the rent instead of wage rises and then eventually they stopped it all together. We never had a tenancy agreement. But recently it was added to OHs employment contract. He had his first meeting on Monday of this week when they just reiterated what was in the letter and his second meeting will be next Monday we think his finish date will be Friday next week, although we are not sure how they will be able to cover some jobs that will need doing for next weekend. . This has all been done by an agent that was taken on by the charitable trust to do a strategic review in which It think the idea is that they now run everything. Not sure what else there is to tell apart from the fact that we are worried sick mostly because we will have now where to live and if OH find a similar role it is unlikely to be local and therefore I will be out of work.

Many thanks
Lizzy

Sounds like they are outsourcing the service - get him to ask them if he is TUPE transferring, and if not, why not.

Has he always been paid (at least) minimum wage (since it existed) as well as his cottage?

Mel

[lizzydripin]

Hi Melonfool

I think it will be contractors that they take on for the estate positions, OH was management so the land agent will be doing that themselves I would have thought, would this mean he could be TUPE for the land agent that will be then doing his job in effect? He was on a fairly good wage not minimum wage

Thanks
Lizzy

[melonfool]

Hi Melonfool

I think it will be contractors that they take on for the estate positions, OH was management so the land agent will be doing that themselves I would have thought, would this mean he could be TUPE for the land agent that will be then doing his job in effect? He was on a fairly good wage not minimum wage

Thanks
Lizzy

In theory yes - but it's hard to know without full details. He should just ask them - let them explain why he is not.

I assume he's got full redundancy pay?

Mel

[dspp]

The redundancy and consultation processes are slightly different if there are more or less than 20 people employed.

How many are employed by the 'owner' (which you say is a charitable trust ?)

The redundancy payment may be fairly large if he has had a long period of employment with them. That may help.

Now if the 'rent' was cut to zero as a way of substituting for pay that may be a reason to ask for a higher redundancy pay as the basis of the calculation could be argued as being (pay+rent) not (pay). You say he is 53 and has worked there 22 years, so he started at 31. That suggests to me you may be hitting the £14,670 cap. Worth looking carefully at the redundancy process used and the redundancy calculation I would suggest. Others here are better able to give an opinion than I am.

regards, dspp
-----------------------------
https://www.gov.uk/redundant-your-rights:
You’ll normally be entitled to statutory redundancy pay if you’re an employee and you’ve been working for your current employer for 2 years or more.

You’ll get:

half a week’s pay for each full year you were under 22
one week’s pay for each full year you were 22 or older, but under 41
one and half week’s pay for each full year you were 41 or older
Length of service is capped at 20 years.

If you were made redundant on or after 6 April 2017, your weekly pay is capped at £489 and the maximum statutory redundancy pay you can get is £14,670. If you were made redundant before 6 April 2017, these amounts will be lower.

[lizzydripin]

Hi

I was thinking about the TUPE and have a couple of questions:

OH is having to show one of the girls in the office, who is sales, part of his job. then I would imagine the rest will be done by the land agent.
I think the fact they are pushing some to someone who already works there may preclude TUPE.
If this is not the case and the agent employed OH would he then lose the right to 22 years of redundancy payments?

In answer to dspp question, there are less then 20 people employed, there were 10 of which 5 have been made redundant. He is being made redundant from the 16th of June.

I am not sure how you get to the maximum redundancy payment when both capping limits for length of service and amount of pay are less than OH's amounts but it still comes out less than the maximum in the calculator.

I feel we may be able to negotiate for a higher redundancy payment maybe but not sure. I the past some one who worked for just to years, alibi on a wage of £45,000 plus, was given a £40,000 redundancy package, plus a pension payment and was then able to carry on doing the job but for a different company as an agent, he was a friend of one of the trustees!

Lizzy

[melonfool]

Hi

I was thinking about the TUPE and have a couple of questions:

OH is having to show one of the girls in the office, who is sales, part of his job. then I would imagine the rest will be done by the land agent.
I think the fact they are pushing some to someone who already works there may preclude TUPE.
If this is not the case and the agent employed OH would he then lose the right to 22 years of redundancy payments?

In answer to dspp question, there are less then 20 people employed, there were 10 of which 5 have been made redundant. He is being made redundant from the 16th of June.

I am not sure how you get to the maximum redundancy payment when both capping limits for length of service and amount of pay are less than OH's amounts but it still comes out less than the maximum in the calculator.

I feel we may be able to negotiate for a higher redundancy payment maybe but not sure. I the past some one who worked for just to years, alibi on a wage of £45,000 plus, was given a £40,000 redundancy package, plus a pension payment and was then able to carry on doing the job but for a different company as an agent, he was a friend of one of the trustees!

Lizzy

If it is TUPE then all his service and rights go with him.

None of us here can guess or decide if it should be - ask them why they say it is not.

It may well be because the tasks are being carried out in a different way, but you need them to tell you that. And look out for age discrimination, because it sounds a bit like that may be at play here.

The 20 people only affects the length of consultation, makes it 30 days.

I can't think why he isn't getting the max redundancy - he should be! Ask them for their working out.

Mel

[lizzydripin]

Hi Mel,

I am confused about the max redundancy as I can not seem to get the online calculator to award the maximum amount even though OH exceeds the criteria.

Is it just a bit more than can give if they feel like it?

Thanks
Lizzy

[lizzydripin]

Ahhh, it seems to be your age if OH was older he would get more
Lizzy

[PinkDalek]

I am confused about the max redundancy as I can not seem to get the online calculator to award the maximum amount even though OH exceeds the criteria. ...

Using this calculator https://www.gov.uk/calculate-your-redundancy-pay I get to a statutory redundancy payment of £12,714 (rather than the maximum amount of £14,670), based on the following (which may be inaccurate but based on the information provided so far):

What date were you made redundant? 16 June 2017
How old were you on the date you were made redundant? 53
How many years have you worked for your employer? 22.0 [***See below]
What is your weekly pay before tax and any other deductions? £489 [I've used the maximum here]

This would appear to be why the maximum amount is not available:

*** Your entitlement is 26.0 weeks.

You get:

0.5 week’s pay for each full year worked when you’re under 22
1 week’s pay for each full year worked when you’re between 22 and 41
1.5 week’s pay for each full year worked when you’re 41 or older

To achieve the £14,670 he'd need 30.0 weeks.

[lizzydripin]

Thank you PinkDalek
That has made it clear, not much we can do then apart from appeal to their good will to increase it in line with some previous redundancy payments. If OH can find another job it is not too bad if not I think it will go quickly even though I have battened down the hatches.

The next thing will be how to get a decent employers reference from them as they can be vindictive, the person in charge tried to give me a bad reference but fortunately my current employer did not trust it as he had already met me but I was given a bad reference for another job I had applied for, the excuse was she didn't want me working for the opposition. I was also threatened ,with legal action when I tried to claim wages I had earned for jobs they had asked me to do after my redundancy process had started at the time we couldn't do anything about it because OH was still working for them!!

Thanks
Lizzy

[Clitheroekid]

... we have lived in the cottage for about 28 years, it was a rental when we first moved here but they kept reducing the rent instead of wage rises and then eventually they stopped it all together. We never had a tenancy agreement. But recently it was added to OHs employment contract.

If you moved into the cottage after 15 January 1989 then the landlord at the time would have had to give you a special form of notice called a `section 20 notice' informing you that you were entering into an assured shorthold tenancy (`AST').

If you weren't given this notice then the tenancy would have been an `assured tenancy'.

The difference is that under an assured tenancy you have security of tenure, in that the landlord can't get you out simply by giving two months' notice as they can with an AST. They have to prove to the court one of the grounds set out in Schedule 2 of the Housing Act 1988 - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/50/schedule/2

There are two types of grounds in the Schedule. The first lot are mandatory grounds - if the landlord proves their case then the court must order possession. These grounds include such things as failure to pay rent or being convicted of a serious criminal offence.

The second set of grounds are discretionary - if the landlord proves their case the court has to balance the interests of the landlord and tenant, and can refuse possession if they think the tenant's interest outweigh those of the landlord.

In your case, the relevant ground would appear to be Ground 16:

The dwelling-house was let to the tenant in consequence of his employment by the landlord seeking possession or a previous landlord under the tenancy and the tenant has ceased to be in that employment.

On the face of it your landlord wouldn’t be able to use this ground as it seems that your OH started working for his employer several years after you moved into the property. However, if it is simply that the property was owned by a different landlord by whom your OH was employed then the ground would probably apply.

But recently it was added to OHs employment contract.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this. It's possible that the old tenancy may have been `surrendered' (i.e. given up) in return for a new tenancy that is tied to your OH's employment.

However, there are provisions in the HA 1988 that invalidate agreements procured by the landlord that are intended to deprive an assured tenant of their security of tenure. So if your OH was persuaded to sign a new tenancy agreement linked to his employment that effectively surrendered the old assured tenancy the new agreement may not be enforceable.

In other words the old assured tenancy would still exist, and your landlord would have to prove one of the Schedule 2 grounds to get you out.

If you do have an assured tenancy then it may be possible that your landlord can’t evict you. But I should make it clear that this is an outside chance. There isn’t enough detailed history in your posts to give a definitive answer.

However, the very fact that such a possibility exists at all should persuade you to obtain expert advice.

It would be worth initially taking this tenancy rights checker provided by Shelter - http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advic ... cy_checker

But I really would strongly advise you to obtain advice from a housing law specialist. Shelter themselves are very good, but if it's too complicated they will be able to refer you to a suitable specialist.

[lizzydripin]

Hi Clitheroekid,

I apologies my maths was not good when I first worked our how long we have been here We actually moved into the cottage in 1992 we had no tenancy agreement we did pay rent (at the time the owner was still alive and if she liked you you got a house, one of the criteria was that you had to be married, the house was a mess and they had been unable to rent it out so we had a low rent and did lots of work to it. My OH was self employed in building at the time and worked for the landlord after we had been here a while on that bases, he was on a very low wage, eventually the landlord took him on as an employee, on a very low wage, and each year instead of a wage rise they reduced the rent further until it ceased completely. He worked his way up over the years until he became management and at some point they changed his employment contract to mention the cottage, in as much that his job required that he lived onsite. He was here to answer alarms and for animal welfare.
The house was also improved by the landlords and a small extension added. I would imagine nowadays it would go for a fairly good rent and that we would not be able to afford it certainly on my wage.
Thanks
Lizzy D

[Clitheroekid]

We actually moved into the cottage in 1992 we had no tenancy agreement we did pay rent

OK, then because the tenancy started before 1997 it would definitely have required a section 20 notice to be served to make it a shorthold tenancy.

As there was no written tenancy agreement it's extremely unlikely that the landlord at the time would have served you with such a notice - she probably didn't even know such a thing existed.

The fact that there was no written agreement is neither here nor there. It was automatically an assured tenancy because you didn't receive the notice, which gave you very considerable security of tenure.

My OH was self employed in building at the time and worked for the landlord after we had been here a while on that bases, he was on a very low wage, eventually the landlord took him on as an employee

So he was not an employee when you originally moved in. This means that on the face of it the landlord can't use ground 16 as a basis for seeking possession.

at some point they changed his employment contract to mention the cottage, in as much that his job required that he lived onsite.

Again, without seeing the actual paperwork it's not possible to give definitive advice, but the fact that his employment contract required him to live at the house doesn't automatically mean that the assured tenancy came to an end. It may well still exist, and continue to exist after your OH ceases his employment.

If so, you would have the right to carry on living there indefinitely.

I would imagine nowadays it would go for a fairly good rent and that we would not be able to afford it certainly on my wage.

This is a fair point, and unfortunately there is no rent control with assured tenancies. However, you might enquire as to the availability of housing benefit. It's obviously means-tested but you may be eligible if only one of you is working. It would certainly be worth checking.

The basic point is that you may not have to move out when your OH ceases to be employed. And even if in the long term you have to leave because it's unaffordable you can potentially use your right to remain in occupation as a means of getting a better financial settlement out of the owner / employer.

In other words they may well take the view that they are better off giving you a cash lump sum to get possession quickly than have to go through all the rigmarole of terminating your tenancy legally.

But I would again reiterate that you really should seek specialist advice. I'm now 99% sure that you did have an assured tenancy. The critical question is whether or not this was brought to an end when your OH's contract was altered to refer to the house.

[lizzydripin]

Thank you Clitheroekid,

We will certainly see if we can get further advice on this and then try and consider how this knowledge may help. We love the house, we have done a lot of work o it,but it is not easy anyway to live so close to work when you are no longer working there if that makes sense., even if we could afford it.Living and working so close makes it a way of life that is hard to switch off. But it is also very hard to find accommodation that allows pets.

I think we may know more after OH's meeting tomorrow. Unfortunately the job closing dates on the positions he has applied for are a way off yet, and some of them are in other parts of the country so we would definitely need to move which would help us decide on a course of action.

Thanks again
Lizzy