Moving dead bodies

[Lootman]

This is turning into quite an interesting discussion.

So who appoints Funeral Directors? Who pays for them?

If FDs take and cremate the body before the executors have probate, which must usually be the case as Lootman says, then how can they be sure...
a) they have the legal right to do so?
b) they will be paid by the estate?

Often the next-of-kin are the executors, so then the issue is moot. Where the executor is a professional, say a solicitor or bank manager, then they would not normally be involved in the funeral arrangements. After all, they would have no view on the service other than what might be in the Will, and they would probably defer to the family anyway. Funerals are very personal things.

The family chooses the FD and pays their bill. Sometimes they pay directly, but all the FD's I knew were willing to wait to be paid out of the estate. They become creditors of the estate. I'd assume they make discreet inquiries about the assets of the estate, but I wasn't present for that part. It's a job that requires some delicacy.

There may be no executor if there was no Will or the named executor is dead. In that case an Administrator is appointed to handle the estate but that can take a while. Most funerals happen within one to two weeks of death. And often a family can only deal with starting probate/administration after the funeral.

In dealing with hundreds of deaths I never had anyone claim the body on the basis of being an executor. Nor did anyone other than a FD or other hospital/coroner have a body released to them. In the case I mentioned where two women claimed the same body, I told them both to retain a solicitor to sort it out and I kept the body until then. Whether that solicitor was also the executor or not, I have no recollection.

[gryffron]

Lootman, I'm not doubting your experiences, nor that this may be common custom and practice.

However, it does seem there could be a direct conflict with the legal position. Which is quite clear that only the executor(s) have any legal rights.

If the hospital hands over the body and it is cremated by FDs at the suggestion of next-of-kin, then all three could be hung out to dry if the executor and/or will demanded something different. I am very surprised that in these litigious days the hospitals have practices which leave them open to such charges.

Gryff

[stewamax]

However, it does seem there could be a direct conflict with the legal position. Which is quite clear that only the executor(s) have any legal rights.

It is a real can of worms for the hospital.
If someone is admitted with a short-term terminal illness:
- next-of-kin details are needed for compassionate reasons
- if an 'Health and Welfare' LPA is extant, details of the current attorney are needed because if the sick person is mentally incapable, the attorney's decision on treatment - and particularly the need to prolong treatment - normally overrides those of the medics. There are exceptions, but the attorney's decision is treated as if the sick person made that decision
- executor/s* details are needed for disposal. Legally speaking, next-of-kin (unless they are also executors) have no input to this.


* - or administrator/s is there is no Will

[Dod101]

Having handled a number of family deaths over the last 20 years, I have never ever had the FD query whether I had the right to do this or that or the other, and this thread has moved into the realm of theory rather than the practical.

If a spouse dies at home or in hospital, the next of kin (usually the surviving spouse) gets a certificate of death from a doctor and armed with that can register the death, assuming their is no requirement for a post mortem enquiry. The appointed FD (appointed by the next of kin) will normally have custody of the body by then. In my experience they will deal with the local authority (for a burial) and the crematorium (for a cremation) and obtain all the necessary certificates.I have also dealt with the funerals of both parents and parents in law, and again the same thing applied.

FDs are a patient lot in my experience. I used to be treasurer for a military charity and although the grieving widow of the 70 year old ex squadie had no money herself or in the ex squadie's estate she went ahead with a £5000 funeral anyway. Then came the problem of how to pay for it so she turned to the ex regiment of the squaddie and they would usually offer a contribution, with various other military charities making up the balance. All of this took time, sometimes several months and meanwhile the FD had to live.

By the way it is only a can of worms for the hospital if the refrigeration has broken down. Otherwise I think it is fairly straightforward.

Dod

[gryffron]

Having handled a number of family deaths over the last 20 years, I have never ever had the FD query whether I had the right to do this or that or the other, and this thread has moved into the realm of theory rather than the practical.

This thread started in the theoretical.

It has moved into the Legal, this being the Legal Issues board.

Just because "everybody does it that way" doesn't make it the correct legal answer. The law IS crystal clear. Only the executor (or administrator) has any legal rights over the body.

Gryff

[stewamax]

... this thread has moved into the realm of theory rather than the practical.

Not so. FDs generally get called to action by relatives who are emotionally overwrought and 'wish to do the best' for the dead person.
I have also been party to arranging family funerals and never once was the much cheaper direct cremation mentioned for example.
FDs have a job to do and business is business, but having discussed this with otherwise hard-nosed colleagues who have also been party to arranging funerals, it is vanishingly rare to get competitive quotes - a practice seen perhaps as callous or derogatory to the dead person.

[Dod101]

... this thread has moved into the realm of theory rather than the practical.

Not so. FDs generally get called to action by relatives who are emotionally overwrought and 'wish to do the best' for the dead person.
I have also been party to arranging family funerals and never once was the much cheaper direct cremation mentioned for example.
FDs have a job to do and business is business, but having discussed this with otherwise hard-nosed colleagues who have also been party to arranging funerals, it is vanishingly rare to get competitive quotes - a practice seen perhaps as callous or derogatory to the dead person.

What could possibly be callous or derogatory about using an FD that the survivors are comfortable with. As a matter of fact, I live in a semi rural community where there are two FD firms within the locality. Everyone uses one or the other and since I know the one, and so did the several deceased persons, they were the obvious one to use. Many of the FD's charges are not really theirs anyway, but are costs from the crematorium, the local authority, doctor's fees and so on. Furthermore, my late wife for instance gave me full instructions about what was to be done.

As for moving off topic we are now well away from the original question which has I think been answered.

Dod

[Dod101]

Anyway if we have established that FDs are not licensed by any authority it follows that anyone can set himself up as a funeral director and therefore the answer to the OP is quite clear; that there is no law against carrying dead bodies around in the boot of your car although I imagine that you would need to have a good reason for doing so were you to be stopped by the police. The practice would be more often carried out by someone covering their tracks in some nefarious, possibly illegal, action, than simply taking a body for burial and I guess the police would be justified in being suspicious.

Dod

[didds]

2'ed I believe that your wife and others are simply putting problems in the way because they object to dead bodies either upseting them or others.

not quite - she doesn't believe its legal to do so. shes got no issue in having a corpse in the vehicle in this regard. She just refuses to believe you don't need "permission" from "someone" to move a corpse in this manner.

didds

[didds]

A hospital will not release a body to an individual - only to a funeral director with the correct documentation.

that's interesting - thanks Lootman.

So what happens if "the family" (or whoever) refuses to engage a FD and incur cost (or whatever other reason) ?

didds

[scrumpyjack]

According to this, there is no legal impediment to transporting a corpse in a private car.

http://evansaboveonline.co.uk/after-dea ... -the-body/

[Lootman]

A hospital will not release a body to an individual - only to a funeral director with the correct documentation.

that's interesting - thanks Lootman.

So what happens if "the family" (or whoever) refuses to engage a FD and incur cost (or whatever other reason) ?

I should qualify my answer. It was my hospital's policy to only release bodies for either an external post-mortem or to a FD for funeral. As a University teaching hospital we were in the NHS but apart from it as well - policy was set by an independent board of governors.

So it is entirely possible that other hospitals might release a body to an individual, although I suspect you'd have to jump through a few extra hoops because it is unusual. As others have suggested, in the event of a dispute the estate's executor or administrator could make a valid claim for possession of the body.

Any such dispute might take a few weeks to work through and the hospital would be stuck with the body during that period. If I recall correctly we had freezer room for about 12/16 bodies so our system was dependent on bodies moving out promptly. We averaged about 3 deaths a night (patients seem to usually die at night) when there are few hospital porters about so they'd usually lie in the ward until the 8 a.m. day shift started. And there was just one mobile coffin to transport the bodies to the mortuary.

[Mike88]

On a practical level how do you move a body after rigor mortis sets in a few hours after death? Wouldn't the corpse be difficult to transport in a family car?

[Lootman]

On a practical level how do you move a body after rigor mortis sets in a few hours after death? Wouldn't the corpse be difficult to transport in a family car?

Rigor mortis goes away after a couple of days so you might get away with it. A bigger problem is that the body will be frozen. You are essentially carting around 150 pounds of frozen meat, which will gradually thaw. A FD will usually quickly either embalm the body (if there is to be an open-casket viewing) or seal it to avoid problems.

We had one case of a very tall body, where rigor mortis had set in, which meant he would not fit into the coffin we used to move bodies. I was called down to the ward and, between me and the porter, we managed to apply a torsional force to the corpse until there was a cracking sound and it gave in the middle, whereupon it fitted.

I clearly was not paid enough.

[stewamax]

We had one case of a very tall body, where rigor mortis had set in, which meant he would not fit into the coffin we used to move bodies. I was called down to the ward and, between me and the porter, we managed to apply a torsional force to the corpse until there was a cracking sound and it gave in the middle, whereupon it fitted.

Good lateral thinking; did you have a clam-shell style mobile phone at the time perchance?

[Lootman]

We had one case of a very tall body, where rigor mortis had set in, which meant he would not fit into the coffin we used to move bodies. I was called down to the ward and, between me and the porter, we managed to apply a torsional force to the corpse until there was a cracking sound and it gave in the middle, whereupon it fitted.

Good lateral thinking; did you have a clam-shell style mobile phone at the time perchance?

It was before those were around, but the principle was the same.

[Mike88]

The replies to my earlier post confirm my belief that moving a corpse by private car is completely impractical although I chuckled at the roof rack suggestion which reminded me of the Chevvy Chase National Lampoons film when a dead relative fell off the roof rack in transit.

[Dod101]

If anyone is not aware of the death of Gram Parsons and more importantly for this thread the events thereafter, the following link may be of interest.

https://www.wideopencountry.com/gram-parsons-death/

Also of course if you do not know his music listen to it!

Dod

[Lootman]

If anyone is not aware of the death of Gram Parsons and more importantly for this thread the events thereafter, the following link may be of interest.

https://www.wideopencountry.com/gram-parsons-death/

Also of course if you do not know his music listen to it!

Yes, one of my favourite stories. A few years ago I got to stay in the Joshua Tree motel where he died, although room number six had strangely been renumbered or was otherwise not available.

[scrumpyjack]

The replies to my earlier post confirm my belief that moving a corpse by private car is completely impractical although I chuckled at the roof rack suggestion which reminded me of the Chevvy Chase National Lampoons film when a dead relative fell off the roof rack in transit.

Well I got a full size ambulance stretcher in my Passat estate with the rear and front passenger seat down. There are probably a number of estate cars that a normal size corpse would fit into.

Not that I have any intention of trying!