Returning goods

[mc2fool]

You paid with a credit card, right? So you could send it back to them and put in a section 75 chargeback.

Thanks.

I thought I'd be out of time for that, but you prompted me to check and it appears I have 120 days.

Or rather, there seem to be two separate things: Section 75, and chargeback (e.g. https://www.ukfinance.org.uk/our-expert ... section-75 ). The 120 days applies to the latter. Ho, hum, more complexity, more research to do

Yeah, sorry, slightly sloppy on my part but the term "chargeback" has both a generic and specific meaning. If you call your card provider and request "a chargeback" they'll understand what you (generically) want without you having to be specific as to which kind.

Section 75 applies to credit card purchases over £100 and you have six years to file. Chargeback specifically refers to all debit card purchases and credit card purchases up to £100, i.e. those not covered by s.75, and you have 120 days. But as I say, chargeback is also generically used to refer to both types of claim.

[chas49]

Presumably the distance selling regulations do not apply here but I thought they allowed returns more or less with no questions asked within a time limit of course).

Dod

(italics added) - It's 14 days unless the retailer offers a longer term (which may be subject to conditions). Unfortunately probably of no help to the OP.

[Dod101]

Presumably the distance selling regulations do not apply here but I thought they allowed returns more or less with no questions asked within a time limit of course).

Dod

(italics added) - It's 14 days unless the retailer offers a longer term (which may be subject to conditions). Unfortunately probably of no help to the OP.

Thanks.

[AF62]

You paid with a credit card, right? So you could send it back to them and put in a section 75 chargeback.

That would be my choice - a retailer gets one chance to do the right thing then a s75 claim.

But a couple of points, a ‘chargeback’ is different from a s75 claim and the call handlers at the credit card companies are easily confused so best to not mix the terms.

Then with a s75 claim, the claim is with the card company and not the retailer, so if the card company want the machine sent to them then they will ask, so I wouldn’t presumptively send the machine back to the retailer. Also when I have made successful s75 claims for faulty goods the credit card company has never asked for them to be returned, just evidence of their disposal - photo of them thrown into a council tip, donation to charity shop, etc.

[UncleEbenezer]

I should add here that I'm not happy about claiming against Visa: they're not the ones refusing to honour their returns policy! Though I guess they are someone with the clout to deal with a big retailer: perhaps that's the principle at work here?

As an alternative, might it be an option to invoke the legal expenses protection in my home insurance policy and get a lawyer?

[AF62]

I should add here that I'm not happy about claiming against Visa: they're not the ones refusing to honour their returns policy! Though I guess they are someone with the clout to deal with a big retailer: perhaps that's the principle at work here?

I somehow doubt that the agreement your credit card company has through VISA and the retailer puts the card company ‘on the hook’ for the money and that it isn’t recovered from the recalcitrant retailer (assuming the retailer is still in business).

[88V8]

I should add here that I'm not happy about claiming against Visa: they're not the ones refusing to honour their returns policy! Though I guess they are someone with the clout to deal with a big retailer: perhaps that's the principle at work here?

I somehow doubt that the agreement your credit card company has through VISA and the retailer puts the card company ‘on the hook’ for the money and that it isn’t recovered from the recalcitrant retailer (assuming the retailer is still in business).

I'm sure that's true.
On the few occasions that I've had to get eBay involved in refunds, I expect they charge the seller.
Normally though I find eBay sellers are so averse to bad feedback it's not actually necessary to go through the complaints process.

V8

[mc2fool]

I should add here that I'm not happy about claiming against Visa: they're not the ones refusing to honour their returns policy! Though I guess they are someone with the clout to deal with a big retailer: perhaps that's the principle at work here?

VISA won't be the one paying (unless the retailer goes bust in the interim). They will extract the refunded amount from the retailer and slap them with a fee on top for the hassle.

One tactic might be to tell the retailer that if they don't honour their stated 30 day returns policy you will get your bank to do a section 75 reversal of the transaction. That might nudge them into just giving you the refund, as it will be cheaper and less hassle than getting and dealing with the s.75. OTOH I guess it might warn them to get their defences up .... so dunno what's best there.

[BigB]

I should add here that I'm not happy about claiming against Visa: they're not the ones refusing to honour their returns policy! Though I guess they are someone with the clout to deal with a big retailer: perhaps that's the principle at work here?

As an alternative, might it be an option to invoke the legal expenses protection in my home insurance policy and get a lawyer?

Depending on what your actual goal is here, would you consider trying to make a short video with your Android phone.

Earlier this year we bought 4 kitchen stools, £250 ea, and delivered as 2 piece self assembly items - the seat screwed and locked to a premoulded steel mechanism with spring (so the stool rotates and centres) on the base of the leg unit. One of the 4 stools had a loose/clicky steel mechanism, and I phoned/emailed them to get a replacement. They were a little resistant (offered me a 25% reduction on just the faulty one) and were squirming. When they accepted I wanted a replacement and gave me the online form for the replacement there was a request for photos/videos. When I'd sent the form with a short video capturing the loose/clicky movement, they then moved quickly/efficiently but reluctantly to replace.

Videos are used in numerous industries to quickly/easily demonstrate what a user does in a situation, realtime. It might be easier than you think and it might help get a result.

Best of luck

[UncleEbenezer]

I should add here that I'm not happy about claiming against Visa: they're not the ones refusing to honour their returns policy! Though I guess they are someone with the clout to deal with a big retailer: perhaps that's the principle at work here?

As an alternative, might it be an option to invoke the legal expenses protection in my home insurance policy and get a lawyer?

Depending on what your actual goal is here, would you consider trying to make a short video with your Android phone.

First, I have tried to make videos before - like the local ponies dancing as they often do in the early evening in spring and summer - and always failed. Or rather, I get about half a second of video, then it stops[1]. I've never been interested enough to figure out why.

Second, I struggle to think through the logistics of it. Even if I could hold the phone in place with one hand while making coffee with the other (in practice it would need my full concentration just to keep the phone focussed, rather than wandering off to the wine rack, or my feet, or somesuch), I'd have to deal with things like walking over to the sink to empty the warming water from the cup. What do I do - put the phone in my pocket while filming? How did you deal with performing two tasks at once?

Third, unlike your case, there's nothing to see. Just a cup of less-than-hot coffee being produced. How is the temperature of the coffee supposed to become evident in a video?

Fourth, in the context of a published returns policy that reads like no quibbles, why the heck should I have to jump through such hoops?

Do people really make videos of themselves performing tasks? The stories one occasionally reads suggests that "selfie" snapshots cause enough trouble!

[1] which is why I've posted snapshots but never videos to Snorvey's thread.

[BigB]

I should add here that I'm not happy about claiming against Visa: they're not the ones refusing to honour their returns policy! Though I guess they are someone with the clout to deal with a big retailer: perhaps that's the principle at work here?

As an alternative, might it be an option to invoke the legal expenses protection in my home insurance policy and get a lawyer?

Depending on what your actual goal is here, would you consider trying to make a short video with your Android phone.

First, I have tried to make videos before - like the local ponies dancing as they often do in the early evening in spring and summer - and always failed. Or rather, I get about half a second of video, then it stops[1]. I've never been interested enough to figure out why.

Second, I struggle to think through the logistics of it. Even if I could hold the phone in place with one hand while making coffee with the other (in practice it would need my full concentration just to keep the phone focussed, rather than wandering off to the wine rack, or my feet, or somesuch), I'd have to deal with things like walking over to the sink to empty the warming water from the cup. What do I do - put the phone in my pocket while filming? How did you deal with performing two tasks at once?

Third, unlike your case, there's nothing to see. Just a cup of less-than-hot coffee being produced. How is the temperature of the coffee supposed to become evident in a video?

Fourth, in the context of a published returns policy that reads like no quibbles, why the heck should I have to jump through such hoops?

Do people really make videos of themselves performing tasks? The stories one occasionally reads suggests that "selfie" snapshots cause enough trouble!

[1] which is why I've posted snapshots but never videos to Snorvey's thread.

2. Make a short script, bulleted, of what to show, and practice it. I think I could make a 40 second video of me making a coffee in my Nespresso machine, including topping up the water, inserting the pod, then pushing the button and waiting 30 secs for the end. I'd lean the camera against something on the kitchen worktop, probably landscape mode, and check its alignment, then check you can easily start and stop the video by tapping the button in the camera app without moving the phone. Alternatively, ask someone to hold the phone and video you.

3. There is something to see. Video evidence that you have done everything expected in quick/realtime - video can remove the "we don't really know if he's doing it correctly argument". You could just use the video to prove the machine is used quickly and correctly, and then report the tepid coffee, or you could consider getting a thermometer and including a temp check.

4. I'm not saying you should have to, but it could help remove a sticking point if you're dealing with someone trying to squirm/avoid.

There's a whole world of superb educational and support videos on youtube, covering almost anything you could imagine, to see how to do something. Several of the channels have become really quite expert at scripting/filming/editing, giving excellent outputs that take you stage by stage through some process, allowing you to skip/pause though it time and time again.

[mc2fool]

Third, unlike your case, there's nothing to see. Just a cup of less-than-hot coffee being produced. How is the temperature of the coffee supposed to become evident in a video?

Possibly they just want to see that you're "using it properly" and not doing anything daft with it? (Not quite sure what scope there is for that...)

I agree that it all seems like hoop-jumping but OTOH if you can do as they ask then at least they don't have that reason to deny you.

In terms of logistics, can you not prop the phone up somewhere? It doesn't have to walk around with you, just have a clear view of the machine and what you're doing to/with it. Lodging the phone between bags of dried beans or lentils or similar can offer both stability and the flexibility to point it as needed

[88V8]

I should add here that I'm not happy about claiming against Visa: they're not the ones refusing to honour their returns policy! Though I guess they are someone with the clout to deal with a big retailer: perhaps that's the principle at work here?

As an alternative, might it be an option to invoke the legal expenses protection in my home insurance policy and get a lawyer?

Depending on what your actual goal is here, would you consider trying to make a short video with your Android phone.

First, I have tried to make videos before - like the local ponies dancing as they often do in the early evening in spring and summer - and always failed. Or rather, I get about half a second of video, then it stops[1]. I've never been interested enough to figure out why.

I would have the same inability/disinterest problem.
I would solve it by finding a 5-year old to do the job for me.

V8

[UncleEbenezer]

I should add here that I'm not happy about claiming against Visa: they're not the ones refusing to honour their returns policy! Though I guess they are someone with the clout to deal with a big retailer: perhaps that's the principle at work here?

As an alternative, might it be an option to invoke the legal expenses protection in my home insurance policy and get a lawyer?

Depending on what your actual goal is here, would you consider trying to make a short video with your Android phone.

First, I have tried to make videos before - like the local ponies dancing as they often do in the early evening in spring and summer - and always failed. Or rather, I get about half a second of video, then it stops[1]. I've never been interested enough to figure out why.

I would have the same inability/disinterest problem.
I would solve it by finding a 5-year old to do the job for me.

V8

Are you Dirk Gently?

If I asked a child into my kitchen, my fear would be getting bloomin' arrested!

Please occifer, I only wanted some help with making a video ...

[Clitheroekid]

There's a danger here of not being able to see the wood for the trees. All this talk about making videos is frankly ridiculous for a situation like this, and it's clear the retailer is just trying to put obstacles in your way.

As you say, it's an absurd suggestion anyway, as the problem is the low temperature, so how on earth is a video supposed to record that? Perhaps you should make the coffee then video yourself drinking it, making a disgusted face and saying "By Jove, that's far too tepid, it won't do at all!"

However, it would be sensible to obtain some evidence, so perhaps stick a thermometer in a cup of coffee straight from the machine and take a photo of the thermometer in the coffee showing the temperature. Make a note of the time and date you took the photo.

But the basic situation seems to me quite simple. The machine is producing coffee at too low a temperature. Assuming there's no way of adjusting it to increase the temperature then the machine is quite clearly neither fit for purpose nor of satisfactory quality - end of.

You are therefore entitled to reject it within 30 days of the purchase, and it sounds as though your original communication with them was probably a rejection. If you're not sure, and you're still within the 30 days, then you should contact them again immediately, saying unequivocally that you are rejecting the machine because it's not fit for purpose and/or not of satisfactory quality. You might want to quote section 20 Consumer Rights Act 2015 - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/20

The retailer must arrange collection of the machine at their own expense or reimburse you the cost of sending it back to them.

[stevensfo]

I should add here that I'm not happy about claiming against Visa: they're not the ones refusing to honour their returns policy! Though I guess they are someone with the clout to deal with a big retailer: perhaps that's the principle at work here?

As an alternative, might it be an option to invoke the legal expenses protection in my home insurance policy and get a lawyer?

Depending on what your actual goal is here, would you consider trying to make a short video with your Android phone.

First, I have tried to make videos before - like the local ponies dancing as they often do in the early evening in spring and summer - and always failed. Or rather, I get about half a second of video, then it stops[1]. I've never been interested enough to figure out why.

I would have the same inability/disinterest problem.
I would solve it by finding a 5-year old to do the job for me.

V8

Yes, that reminds me of the old jokes about new technology.

'Installing your new TV decoder box: Ask a neighbour's 10-year old son to do it!'

Having seen how fast our own kids were when young, I know how true this is.


Steve

[GoSeigen]

Forget the 30-day rule as it “not fit for purpose”
https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/busines ... ow-1334458

Trouble with that is that it leads to what looks like a subjective argument: they could turn round and say that's what it does: if you don't consider it hot enough, tough. That kind of argument terrifies me.

Applying a sledgehammer analogy to crack my nut ... The Post Office told each of those Horizon victims they were the only one having problems with the system, and for years the courts sided with the PO. If that could happen over something so big and serious as that, isn't it almost certain to happen to me over a small matter like this?

Grow some cohones and demand your consumer rights. If the first wallah can't satisfy you demand to see the manager or the owner if a small business.

Don't walk out until they agree to refund.


There can be no compromise when it comes to cups of coffee.

GS

[UncleEbenezer]

I should add here that I'm not happy about claiming against Visa: they're not the ones refusing to honour their returns policy! Though I guess they are someone with the clout to deal with a big retailer: perhaps that's the principle at work here?

I somehow doubt that the agreement your credit card company has through VISA and the retailer puts the card company ‘on the hook’ for the money and that it isn’t recovered from the recalcitrant retailer (assuming the retailer is still in business).

OK, to follow up, I did put in a claim to Visa. They've just written to say they've credited me the money and are raising a claim with Wayfair. This is not the end of it: they've said they'll tell me how Wayfair responds.

I've still got the coffee machine and its box cluttering up the place. I guess I should check with the Visa folks before disposal. Since it would be an excellent machine for someone who likes their coffee lukewarm (perhaps RS but not Mrs RS), I guess if noone wants it returned I should attempt to sell it and donate any proceeds to charity?

It also occurred to me that maybe a small-claims court claim might've been relatively painless.

[mc2fool]

OK, to follow up, I did put in a claim to Visa. They've just written to say they've credited me the money and are raising a claim with Wayfair. This is not the end of it: they've said they'll tell me how Wayfair responds.

So will them telling you how Wayfair responds be just an FYI, or is there a possibility that Visa could, depending on the response, reverse the credit?!?

Or maybe they're expecting the response to say whether Wayfair wants the coffee machine back or not....

[UncleEbenezer]

OK, to follow up, I did put in a claim to Visa. They've just written to say they've credited me the money and are raising a claim with Wayfair. This is not the end of it: they've said they'll tell me how Wayfair responds.

So will them telling you how Wayfair responds be just an FYI, or is there a possibility that Visa could, depending on the response, reverse the credit?!?

Or maybe they're expecting the response to say whether Wayfair wants the coffee machine back or not....

I don't know what possibilities there may hypothetically be.

But they (Visa) already know full details. I forwarded all correspondence with Wayfair on the matter in support of the claim. Quite a contrast: Visa haven't asked me any followup questions or put up hurdles, they've just reviewed what I sent.