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Probate Gross Value

including wills and probate
scrumpyjack
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Re: Probate Gross Value

#619393

Postby scrumpyjack » October 7th, 2023, 6:17 pm

AdrianC wrote:Gryff,
I just re-read the above. I’m certain the shares in the private company do qualify for an exemption from IHT. I’m also pretty sure their value is included in the gross and net probate value. Does that make sense? There is only a £6k difference between gross and net. The company accounts available online show net assets of over £1m. Dad owned 42% of the shares. His shares won’t be worth 42% of company assets - there’s likely discounts applied due to lack of control and marketability. They are worth more than £6k, though!

Am I missing something?

Thanks.


The Executor has to claim BPR. Did he/she claim it? The estate won't get it unless it is claimed.

AdrianC
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Re: Probate Gross Value

#619408

Postby AdrianC » October 7th, 2023, 10:05 pm

scrumpyjack wrote:
AdrianC wrote:Gryff,
I just re-read the above. I’m certain the shares in the private company do qualify for an exemption from IHT. I’m also pretty sure their value is included in the gross and net probate value. Does that make sense? There is only a £6k difference between gross and net. The company accounts available online show net assets of over £1m. Dad owned 42% of the shares. His shares won’t be worth 42% of company assets - there’s likely discounts applied due to lack of control and marketability. They are worth more than £6k, though!

Am I missing something?

Thanks.


The Executor has to claim BPR. Did he/she claim it? The estate won't get it unless it is claimed.


The executor has employed a solicitor to do all the work, and I hope the solicitor knows what they’re doing.

For now I only know publicly available information, plus how much IHT was paid and a rough idea of the financial assets. I’m working backwards from all that. Again, not that it makes any difference to the outcome. I’d just like to understand.

scrumpyjack
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Re: Probate Gross Value

#619410

Postby scrumpyjack » October 7th, 2023, 10:23 pm

AdrianC wrote:
scrumpyjack wrote:
The Executor has to claim BPR. Did he/she claim it? The estate won't get it unless it is claimed.


The executor has employed a solicitor to do all the work, and I hope the solicitor knows what they’re doing.

For now I only know publicly available information, plus how much IHT was paid and a rough idea of the financial assets. I’m working backwards from all that. Again, not that it makes any difference to the outcome. I’d just like to understand.


It isn't necessarily too late. If it is found that BPR should have been claimed, a 'Corrective' can be submitted and the excess IHT refunded.

Clitheroekid
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Re: Probate Gross Value

#619411

Postby Clitheroekid » October 7th, 2023, 10:42 pm

AdrianC wrote:I just re-read the above. I’m certain the shares in the private company do qualify for an exemption from IHT. I’m also pretty sure their value is included in the gross and net probate value. Does that make sense? There is only a £6k difference between gross and net. The company accounts available online show net assets of over £1m. Dad owned 42% of the shares. His shares won’t be worth 42% of company assets - there’s likely discounts applied due to lack of control and marketability. They are worth more than £6k, though!

Yes, the value of the shares would be included in the estate - the exemptions are applied after the vale of the estate has been calculated.

Although a minority shareholding would normally attract a fairly hefty discount that's not invariably the case - for example if someone held 45% of the shares and their spouse owned 15%, or if a sale of the company was imminent and its value had been agreed.

You should also be aware that shares in a private company will not always qualify for 100% relief. This is because of the `excepted assets' rule. In simple terms, an asset will only qualify for BPR if it had been used wholly or mainly for the purposes of the business in question, or it was required for future use for the purposes of the business.

The ‘future use’ test was an issue in the 1998 case of Barclays Bank Trust Co Ltd v Inland Revenue Commissioners. The deceased owned half the shares in a company, the other half being owned by her husband. The company’s business was the sale of bathroom and kitchen fittings.

The company‘s turnover at the time of her death was approximately £600,000, but it held £450,000 in cash that was invested on a very short term basis. The executors claimed BPR on the full value of the company's assets but HMRC said that the company only actually needed £150,000 for its future use , and that the balance of £300,000 was not reasonably needed. It therefore determined that the £300,000 was an excepted asset, and did not attract any BPR - ouch!

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Re: Probate Gross Value

#619518

Postby AdrianC » October 8th, 2023, 3:19 pm

Clitheroekid wrote:Yes, the value of the shares would be included in the estate - the exemptions are applied after the value of the estate has been calculated.


Does the probate net value include the value of the shares before any exemptions? I'm trying to reconcile the gross and net values reported.

Clitheroekid wrote:Although a minority shareholding would normally attract a fairly hefty discount that's not invariably the case - for example if someone held 45% of the shares and their spouse owned 15%, or if a sale of the company was imminent and its value had been agreed.

You should also be aware that shares in a private company will not always qualify for 100% relief. This is because of the `excepted assets' rule. In simple terms, an asset will only qualify for BPR if it had been used wholly or mainly for the purposes of the business in question, or it was required for future use for the purposes of the business.

The ‘future use’ test was an issue in the 1998 case of Barclays Bank Trust Co Ltd v Inland Revenue Commissioners. The deceased owned half the shares in a company, the other half being owned by her husband. The company’s business was the sale of bathroom and kitchen fittings.

The company‘s turnover at the time of her death was approximately £600,000, but it held £450,000 in cash that was invested on a very short term basis. The executors claimed BPR on the full value of the company's assets but HMRC said that the company only actually needed £150,000 for its future use , and that the balance of £300,000 was not reasonably needed. It therefore determined that the £300,000 was an excepted asset, and did not attract any BPR - ouch!


Yikes! This could be the case here. I think I mentioned upthread that the company is a manufacturing business that just happens to own a residential rental property. All the numbers work if I include the rental property value in the IHT calculation, and put a hefty discount on the company shares. Could just be coincidence.

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Re: Probate Gross Value

#619539

Postby AdrianC » October 8th, 2023, 5:28 pm

Adding to my previous post, this article below agrees with Gryff from a few posts above - the rental property will not be an excepted asset.

https://www.accountancydaily.co/busines ... ted-assets

Excess cash could be an excepted asset, though.


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