when does a advertised earnings rate become age discrimination

[didds]

In our town is a job advertised for £6/hour.

now that is NMW for 18-20 year olds (being greater than £5.55) but would not meet NMW for 21 and older.

Is this effective age discrimination?

didds

[melonfool]

It is age discrimination and it is an unintended consequence of the NMW (or, maybe intended, to get younger people off the dole, who knows!?).

Didn't you ask exactly this on TMF?

Mel

[didds]

You know Mel, after I posted it did ring a bell and I wondered exactly the same thing!

Thanks for your succinct and excellent answer nonetheless!

didds

[Lootman]

Back when I was that age, such starter-grade jobs would be called "apprenticeships". A business, usually in one of the trades, would specifically hire school-leavers to work for a peppercorn wage with the idea that, once they had served their time and learned their trade, they would graduate onto adult pay scales.

If one regards such a hiring strategy as discriminatory now, then should we assume that the concept of an apprenticeship is consigned to being an obscure historical footnote? Can a business no longer target school leavers as trainees? Or do they have to hire them as adults, pay them an adult wage and then charge them for their training?

[UncleIan]

then should we assume that the concept of an apprenticeship is consigned to being an obscure historical footnote? Can a business no longer target school leavers as trainees?

Apprenticeships are very much still a thing. I don't know the details, but I am fairly sure they are still aimed at just school/college leavers.

[didds]

They are very much a thing.

https://www.getmyfirstjob.co.uk/Apprent ... ships.aspx

didds

[Lootman]

They are very much a thing.
https://www.getmyfirstjob.co.uk/Apprent ... ships.aspx

So maybe the job you saw listed was framed as an apprenticeship, in order to be able to specifically target a school-leaver?

My other thought is that the job may come with other benefits so the minimum wage doesn't apply. When our children were young we hired a school-leaver as a live-in nanny. She had her own bedroom, free bills, phone and utilities etc. This was in a nice part of London and so the value of that alone was close to the minimum wage, and I paid her enough in cash each week that she could live well.

Maybe such an arrangement wouldn't pass muster now, but is it possible that the job you saw came with in-kind benefits that exempt it from the minimum wage rules?

[Slarti]

Back when I was that age, such starter-grade jobs would be called "apprenticeships". A business, usually in one of the trades, would specifically hire school-leavers to work for a peppercorn wage with the idea that, once they had served their time and learned their trade, they would graduate onto adult pay scales.

If one regards such a hiring strategy as discriminatory now, then should we assume that the concept of an apprenticeship is consigned to being an obscure historical footnote? Can a business no longer target school leavers as trainees? Or do they have to hire them as adults, pay them an adult wage and then charge them for their training?

I'm pretty sure that apprenticeships have been defined by law for a long time and consist of a contract between "master" and apprentice such that after a period as an apprentice you are qualified in a trade.

Unless there is more to the advert than we have been told, this would not be that.

Slarti

[didds]

Unless there is more to the advert than we have been told, this would not be that.

Slarti

correct slarti - this was a xmas tree selling role..

didds

[IsleofWightPete]

I'm pretty sure that apprenticeships have been defined by law for a long time and consist of a contract between "master" and apprentice such that after a period as an apprentice you are qualified in a trade.

That may historically have been the definition, but it bears little or no relation to the present day apprenticeship.

There is certainly no concept of a "master", nor is there a concept of being "qualified in a trade".

There are many definitions available by googling "what is an apprenticeship", and indeed there are different levels of apprenticeship, but a simple summary is available here:
https://www.learndirect.com/business/pr ... iceship-2/

Apprenticeships are government funded work-based training programmes for people aged 16 and over. They combine on the job training with nationally recognised qualifications

[melonfool]

I'm pretty sure that apprenticeships have been defined by law for a long time and consist of a contract between "master" and apprentice such that after a period as an apprentice you are qualified in a trade.

That may historically have been the definition, but it bears little or no relation to the present day apprenticeship.

There is certainly no concept of a "master", nor is there a concept of being "qualified in a trade".

There are many definitions available by googling "what is an apprenticeship", and indeed there are different levels of apprenticeship, but a simple summary is available here:
https://www.learndirect.com/business/pr ... iceship-2/

Apprenticeships are government funded work-based training programmes for people aged 16 and over. They combine on the job training with nationally recognised qualifications

Yup, you can do an apprenticeship at any age, and you get paid the apprentice rate. An employer may not advertise an apprenticeship and mention age.

Same with 'graduate' jobs, you can say 'recently graduated' but not relate that to age, so could have been a mature student.

It's not much use harking back to what happened thirty years ago, what is required is information on the law now.

Mel

(that "government funded" bit is going to need to change when the new levy comes in next year!)

[Slarti]

That may historically have been the definition, but it bears little or no relation to the present day apprenticeship.

There is certainly no concept of a "master", nor is there a concept of being "qualified in a trade".

There are many definitions available by googling "what is an apprenticeship", and indeed there are different levels of apprenticeship, but a simple summary is available here:
https://www.learndirect.com/business/pr ... iceship-2/

Apprenticeships are government funded work-based training programmes for people aged 16 and over. They combine on the job training with nationally recognised qualifications

But the point I was making, that apprenticeships are regulated, still stands.

Also, I'm sure I saw something, possibly in a Grand Designs, where someone doing an ancient trade was apprenticed to a Master Whateveritwas as there was no nationally recognised qualification, there being only 4 or 5 people in the country still doing the job.

Slarti

[Lootman]

correct slarti - this was a xmas tree selling role..

No, honest guv, it is a lumberjack, forestry management and tree surgeon apprenticeship

[sg31]

Unless there is more to the advert than we have been told, this would not be that.

Slarti

correct slarti - this was a xmas tree selling role..

didds

Maybe the low wage only applies to allow him to spruce up his selling techniques, It definitely doesn't sound fir.

[chas49]

The discussion has shifted away from age discrimination so can we please now consider it Closed unless there is anything on-topic to add. Any tree-related punnery should be posted in Laughing Fools!

The thread has not been locked in case further on-topic discussion follows.

chas49-Moderator