Query on death of friend

[XFool]

I agree the system seems to have let you down here, but I'm thinking wider than this specific case, or to look at this case in a slightly different way, how would you, or the coroner, or anyone else be able to ensure others who knew him well and might have wished to attend the funeral knew about it?

Indeed, there are still questions being asked about some of his friends that we know of but do not have any contact details for. The executors don't sound terribly concerned.

Had things played out slightly differently, I guess it might easily have been the case that the first you heard of the death was well after the funeral had taken place...

That's true. But as it was I was one of the very first people to know, I arrived to find the police on the scene. I took it upon myself to keep 'everyone' informed and felt they were relying on me to tell them. Apart from anything else - what with the possible phone problem - I have been feeling very bad and guilty that I may have made some mistake and let him and a lot of other people down.

At least I now know it wasn't my fault. But it also sound as if we may never really know very much at all.

[XFool]

I'd like to thank everyone for their comments.

XFool

[Pipsmum]

So very sadly, it is not uncommon to be a bit like that. Death removes the central person and pivot. I'm sorry for your loss to have been made more harsh than it already is for you. You can take a little comfort in the fact he is unaware and would have wished it otherwise. I have a little tale from the other side of the coin, in that sometimes relatives do wish to find people but can't.

My estranged uncle died the Christmas before last. I only ever met him as a child. Luckily I happened to be at my fathers house when the call came on Christmas eve. My father has age related dementia and couldn't cope with the news and can't leave my mum on her own anyway. They are too old to make a journey. My cousin on the ground up there was about to go away and couldn't deal with it all on her own. He was all alone in the hospital when he went. They found my dad as his next of kin afterwards. Not sure how, but possibly from his name alone or maybe he'd been able to tell them before he went. We were able to find out from the hospital that he'd had a single visitor but neither we, nor they, knew who it was. I didn't know him so couldn't know where he drank or socialised to tell anyone. The landlady wanted his flat cleared up asap so I went up to help my cousin with his affairs. There were no address books, nor paperwork. Just a shocking smell of poo and wee from two starving cats and a pet caged rat that had eaten his siblings in starvation desperation.

We cleared up as best we could and gave his stuff to the red cross. Not that he had very much anyhow. Just warm clothes and some gardening stuff. The landlady kept his deposit because of the mess understandably. Any hardware went back to the hire shop. We found a couple that had been looking after him a bit and they didn't know whom he knew either. We knew he'd been married before but didn't know where she was. Only that he was separated and that she’d possibly gone to Australia. No way of knowing anything.

We managed to get the blue cross to come and fetch the poor terrified cats who had burrowed into the inside of the back of the sofa. The remaining rat got re-homed by a ratty lover. We fetched uncle from the morgue for a simple cremation and decided to keep the ashes until we found someone that belonged to him. Thankfully he had just enough in his account to pay for the most simple cremation, but not anything fancy. No funeral service, and besides, there was nobody to go to it. Apparently if you sign for someone then you have to pay for the cremation/burial. If you leave them in the morgue then the morgue claim their bank account to pay for it.

We've since found his ex-wife, or rather she found my dad. Luckily I was there again at the time, as instead of being happy with us, she gave a right earful and was furious with us for interfering and didn't want his ashes anyway. I'm not sure why she was so cross, or what else we could, or should, have done any other way. She said we were thieves and we'd nicked all his stuff and his money. Of course we didn’t, and anyway he didn't have any stuff worth having even if we had been. We'd kept safe, and not touched a single penny, of the remaining few quid in his bank account especially until we could find any family. She's given me her address and the bank have recently given me a cheque meant for her.

Not very nice to have someone so very cross when all we were doing was our familial duty by helping. It wasn't exactly a laugh so she’d have been more than welcome to do all the hard work. I thought she’d have been fond enough of him to want him, but apparently the money is all she requires. She’s welcome to every penny as he can’t use it. It’s a pity she didn’t ask nicely because we’d kept it for such anyway. A sad tale really.

We keep nice flowers on his urn box on our hall table, and will eventually take him to put his ashes in the sea where he apparently liked to go fishing. No idea what else to do with him, or how long to wait, as no doubt we'll find somebody who cares just after we’ve done the deed. Luckily my dad had been able to have a nice conversation with him not so many months before, but he can’t remember anyway.

I wonder what these two experiences should teach us all to do to make this a helpful thing. Maybe keep a little book saying death wishes with everything written down. The relatives or friends can't get into a locked phone so it can't be like the ICE number unless there is a place on a phone to do more.

[melonfool]

I can believe it, as data protection laws trump common sense these days.

That's just not true - data protection laws do not cover the deceased, they very specifically only cover the living.

They do cover the actions of executors though (because they are alive).

This sad situation was nothing to do with data protection, it was just a general breakdown of communication but one that, sadly, probably has no remedy.

Mel

[XFool]

I had thought this whole sorry business had been put to bed, however unsatisfactorily. However, in a sense it has just restarted. I have no material interest, though I obviously have some personal interest. I have been asked for information and advice by a third party - who likely is also trying to help the only living relative of the deceased who was his cousin, a women in America.

To keep things simple, I have been asked: Is it possible to take any legal action to challenge/stop the executor's actions?

Obviously I can't (and have no convincing reason for doing so) but what about the women from America? She is the only living relative. Apparently even SHE has been told she can't enter the house (which is being emptied and the contents likely trashed) for a simple momento - so she has not come over from the US as what's the point? I had simply assumed the contents and house would be sold to raise cash, pay any bills and the balance of the estate would go to her - obviously there might be a will that says otherwise, I have not the slightest idea.

It seems that the 'officials' involved have no interest in the concerns of any friends or even the only relative.

This whole thing seems well-nigh incomprehensible to me. Is any of this in any way 'normal'? If so, something seems very wrong somewhere.

[GoSeigen]

I had thought this whole sorry business had been put to bed, however unsatisfactorily. However, in a sense it has just restarted. I have no material interest, though I obviously have some personal interest. I have been asked for information and advice by a third party - who likely is also trying to help the only living relative of the deceased who was his cousin, a women in America.

To keep things simple, I have been asked: Is it possible to take any legal action to challenge/stop the executor's actions?

Obviously I can't (and have no convincing reason for doing so) but what about the women from America? She is the only living relative. Apparently even SHE has been told she can't enter the house (which is being emptied and the contents likely trashed) for a simple momento - so she has not come over from the US as what's the point? I had simply assumed the contents and house would be sold to raise cash, pay any bills and the balance of the estate would go to her - obviously there might be a will that says otherwise, I have not the slightest idea.

It seems that the 'officials' involved have no interest in the concerns of any friends or even the only relative.

This whole thing seems well-nigh incomprehensible to me. Is any of this in any way 'normal'? If so, something seems very wrong somewhere.

XFool, the responsibility of the executors is to carry out the wishes of the deceased as stated in the will. If nothing has been left to this relative then she has no more right to walk into your friend's home than I do to walk into yours and help myself to an item I fancy.

She should get a copy of the will, and if she is not a beneficiary the best she could do is contact the beneficiaries and ask very nicely if they could help in preserving the memento and have it sent to her at her own expense.


GS

[XFool]

Yes GoSeigen, I have become only too aware how it goes in these circumstances. Basically, it's 'take it or leave it'.

All this might make perfect sense in a world inhabited by soulless, mechanical insects. How inconvenient those left behind are human beings.

There just seems to be no 'give' or understanding or concern in the legal processes. Somebody has died? ...so fuggetaboutit!

[GoSeigen]

Yes GoSeigen, I have become only too aware how it goes in these circumstances. Basically, it's 'take it or leave it'.

All this might make perfect sense in a world inhabited by soulless, mechanical insects. How inconvenient those left behind are human beings.

There just seems to be no 'give' or understanding or concern in the legal processes. Somebody has died? ...so fuggetaboutit!

I'm not sure you read all my post! I wrote:

contact the beneficiaries and ask very nicely if they could help in preserving the memento and have it sent to her at her own expense.

I think your friend could "give" by offering a little politeness as well as paying the delivery expenses of what she wants, while the beneficiaries if asked nicely might be only too happy to "give" her the memento(s) that she would like.

I really don't see a problem here.


GS

[PinkDalek]

The cousin, who may or may not be the beneficiary of the Will (I’m assuming there is a Will, due to the mention of an Executor), might not know who is/are the beneficiary/ies to contact.

Maybe an idea for them to write to the Executor, including a letter about a memento or two to be passed on to the beneficiary.

[Dod101]

Yes GoSeigen, I have become only too aware how it goes in these circumstances. Basically, it's 'take it or leave it'.

All this might make perfect sense in a world inhabited by soulless, mechanical insects. How inconvenient those left behind are human beings.

There just seems to be no 'give' or understanding or concern in the legal processes. Somebody has died? ...so fuggetaboutit!

I have had two wives who died relatively young and I know only too well that the world goes on even when someone very close has died. I felt like saying 'Stop! My wife has just died', but as someone said to me at the time, sadly the world literally goes on and the same will happen when I or any one of us goes. Clearly the OP is feeling very bruised but that is, sadly, life although a little give and take does no harm

Dod

[GoSeigen]

the balance of the estate would go to her - obviously there might be a will that says otherwise, I have not the slightest idea.

It seems that the 'officials' involved have no interest in the concerns of any friends or even the only relative.

This whole thing seems well-nigh incomprehensible to me. Is any of this in any way 'normal'? If so, something seems very wrong somewhere.

Just want to reply to this bit as my earlier message was about what the cousin could practically do.

I suggested getting the will, because that will lay out the wishes of the deceased. If there is an executor (you said there is), there is a will. The will is a public document once it has entered probate so the cousin is entitled to a copy of it (at her expense). She can search for the will here:

http://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/

I don't know to whom you are referring when you say "officials" but if you mean the executor, then their role is very clear. They must carry out the requirements of the will, no more no less. It's presumptuous to expect them to respond to random people other than those named as beneficiaries. I'm assuming here that this is not one of those rare cases where foul play or some other unfair thing has happened. The deceased has asked for his estate to be passed to the beneficiaries and so that is what the executors must do. The beneficiaries OTOH could express their wishes to the executor regards personal effects which are of no value and I'm sure the executor would take account of any such request which did not go against the will of the deceased.

If the only relative IS a beneficiary then she of course can express her wishes directly to the executor. That is why I think she should establish ASAP whether she is one, assuming she doesn't know already. If she isn't, why not? Or rather if she knows she is not a beneficiary than why on earth does she think she has the right to stuff owned by the deceased?

I hope this makes things a bit clearer. As I said earlier, I can't see where anything has gone wrong here, not without further information anyway.

GS

[XFool]

Just want to reply to this bit as my earlier message was about what the cousin could practically do.

I suggested getting the will, because that will lay out the wishes of the deceased. If there is an executor (you said there is), there is a will. The will is a public document once it has entered probate so the cousin is entitled to a copy of it (at her expense). She can search for the will here:

http://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/

Thanks for that but there is currently zero information about the will in the public record. The executor has told me there is a will and that the cousin knows its contents. Obviously I have no knowledge of its contents as it is no business of mine.

If the only relative IS a beneficiary then she of course can express her wishes directly to the executor. That is why I think she should establish ASAP whether she is one, assuming she doesn't know already. If she isn't, why not? Or rather if she knows she is not a beneficiary than why on earth does she think she has the right to stuff owned by the deceased?

I don't believe it's anything to do with "rights", it's about other things entirely. The cousin's father was the brother of the deceased's father. There are family and sentimental matters involved.

Also, there is another women, who was the girlfriend of the deceased's dead brother. Understandably the deceased maintained a relationship with this woman, often spending Christmas with her. The trouble is, we (his friends) know of her but have no contact details for her whatsoever. Has she been told? Was SHE at the funeral service? Does she even know he is dead? Nobody knows. And we don't know how to find out.

Perhaps she will just have to fugetaboutit too?

[GoSeigen]

Perhaps she will just have to fugetaboutit too?

For the third time: no, she [ex-girlfriend of brother of deceased] will not have to just forget about it.

If she is a beneficiary then the executor will have to find her. If not, she may speak to the actual beneficiaries about her wishes [via the executor if necessary, as suggested by another poster] -- and one would think that if she cared that much she would know about the fellow's death by now!


If you feel there is a practical difficulty with either relation communicating their requests to the beneficiaries, could you explain what it is, then posters can make further suggestions?

Thanks for that but there is currently zero information about the will in the public record. The executor has told me there is a will and that the cousin knows its contents. Obviously I have no knowledge of its contents as it is no business of mine.

If the cousin knows the content of the will then this is academic. If not, or if you want to read it, then it's a simple matter of waiting for probate [and interested parties can request to be notified of probate].

I would add that if probate has not been entered and the executors are already dealing with the estate then it seems to me that they have "intermeddled": you might want to look up the implications of this, or hopefully someone more knowledgeable can comment.

GS

[Clitheroekid]

The will is a public document once it has entered probate so the cousin is entitled to a copy of it (at her expense). She can search for the will here:

http://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/

This is fine if the Will has actually been admitted to probate, but it's quite likely that it won't have been admitted yet, in which case the search will reveal nothing.

In that event you can submit a `standing search'. This means that if probate is granted within the next 6 months you will automatically be notified.

You can't do this online, so you will need to complete a PA1S form - https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... 1s-eng.pdf

Just tick the box half way down page 2 to say you want a standing search.

With regard to the more general points, situations like this are not that unusual. It's surprising how many people die without anyone being there to sort things out. I've sometimes made Wills for people like this - when you ask them who they want to be the executors, or even who they want to leave their estate to they say there's nobody they can really think of. Many end up leaving their estate to charity.

But although this may seem a very sad and pathetic situation quite a few of these people don't seem remotely depressed or concerned about it. They seem to be genuinely quite happy ploughing their own furrow, and their main concern is to put their affairs in order so as not to cause any problems when they drop off their perch.

To keep things simple, I have been asked: Is it possible to take any legal action to challenge/stop the executor's actions?

Obviously I can't (and have no convincing reason for doing so) but what about the women from America? She is the only living relative. Apparently even SHE has been told she can't enter the house (which is being emptied and the contents likely trashed) for a simple momento - so she has not come over from the US as what's the point? I had simply assumed the contents and house would be sold to raise cash, pay any bills and the balance of the estate would go to her - obviously there might be a will that says otherwise, I have not the slightest idea.

It seems that the 'officials' involved have no interest in the concerns of any friends or even the only relative.

The straight answer to your question is yes. There are numerous steps that can be taken against an executor or to prevent the executor being granted probate.

However, there have to be strong grounds for doing so, and you haven't disclosed any.

The fact that the woman is a relative is completely irrelevant where there's a valid Will (though the saying "Where there's a Will there's a relative" is very true). The mere fact she is related doesn't mean that she's inherited anything.

Being related gives her no more legal rights to information about the estate than you or I would have. The only person legally entitled to information at this stage is the executor, and he can choose to divulge it to third parties or not, as he sees fit.

However, most professional executors are keen to do a good job, so if you let him know of the woman in America he will probably speak to the beneficiaries, and if they're happy for him to do so he can then contact her.

[XFool]

For the third time: no, she [ex-girlfriend of brother of deceased] will not have to just forget about it.

If she is a beneficiary then the executor will have to find her. If not, she may speak to the actual beneficiaries about her wishes [via the executor if necessary, as suggested by another poster] -- and one would think that if she cared that much she would know about the fellow's death by now!

I/we have no idea! It could be anywhere on the spectrum from (a) She is fully informed, she is mentioned in the will, she is a beneficiary, she was contacted by the executor, she attended the funeral service. To (b) She doesn't even know he is dead.

That's the concern. We currently have not the slightest idea and no means to contact her. I obviously have no idea, but going on my experience so far, if I had to bet I'd go with (b). Either way, it would be nice to find out and establish the facts. It would, for instance, be nice to be able to put the cousin in touch with the deceased's brothers ex girlfriend.

I am going to try again to contact the deceased's neighbour who originally called the police. They might possibly be able to shed a little more light. In the meanwhile I have contacted the third party and the cousin in America and put your suggestion to them of trying to negotiate with the executor.

The thing is, I'm rather piggy-in-the-middle here, I have no material interest in the estate (which is why I didn't pursue the matter when I heard "an executor has been appointed"), I was originally simply interested in being told of the funeral arrangements and of letting everyone else know too. Epic fail there...

Anyway, thank you for your advice.

[GoSeigen]

In the meanwhile I have contacted the third party and the cousin in America and put your suggestion to them of trying to negotiate with the executor.

So sorry, XFool, but I really don't think I have suggested this anywhere. If anything I've tried to stress that the executor may have no ability to negotiate: such negotiation is neither their responsibility nor their right.

What I did suggest several times is to try to contact the beneficiary(s) to ask them for help. And I mentioned that the executor may be willing to forward such communications. It is the beneficiaries who are entitled to inherit the estate and so they can decide whether to give items or indeed money they receive to other people.

[Perhaps you meant someone else suggested this. If so apologise for getting mixed up...]

GS

[XFool]

In the meanwhile I have contacted the third party and the cousin in America and put your suggestion to them of trying to negotiate with the executor.

So sorry, XFool, but I really don't think I have suggested this anywhere. If anything I've tried to stress that the executor may have no ability to negotiate: such negotiation is neither their responsibility nor their right.

What I did suggest several times is to try to contact the beneficiary(s) to ask them for help.

How do I do that when I don't know who the beneficiaries are and it's none of my business? Will the executor tell me? The only person who currently knows, apart from the executor is, presumably, the cousin in America.

[GoSeigen]

In the meanwhile I have contacted the third party and the cousin in America and put your suggestion to them of trying to negotiate with the executor.

So sorry, XFool, but I really don't think I have suggested this anywhere. If anything I've tried to stress that the executor may have no ability to negotiate: such negotiation is neither their responsibility nor their right.

What I did suggest several times is to try to contact the beneficiary(s) to ask them for help.

How do I do that when I don't know who the beneficiaries are and it's none of my business? Will the executor tell me? The only person who currently knows, apart from the executor is, presumably, the cousin in America.

OMG, I did not suggest you contact the executor but that the people who are related to the deceased contact the executor. I hope we are not playing a game here...

Clitheroekid and others have explained pretty well:
1. Until the will enters probate it is a private document. This means the executor doesn't have to tell anyone anything about the will, but he/she might if asked nicely with genuine reasons.
2. Even if the executor elects to say nothing in this period, you have already stated that cousin of the deceased knows the content of the will. Thus she will know who the beneficiaries are. She can contact them herself, either directly or via the executor.
3. If she doesn't know and the executor will not say and will not pass on messages, then she can wait for probate; if probate is granted, then the will becomes a public document. The executor might be willing to send a copy at this point, but if not, it can still be obtained directly from the probate office for a small fee.
4. The problem finally becomes intractable if and when it is discovered that there will be no probate and/or the executor and beneficiaries (if contactable) have been unhelpful.

Having exhausted the above the friends and relations might have to "fugetaboutit", to coin a phrase. Until then, they ought to make contact, before the items they are interested in are gone. The minimum they could do is express an interest and ask nicely that the items be preserved in case they may receive them.

GS
P.S. I hope said deceased is not a certain gentleman of my acquaintance in Norfolk! That would be an amazing coincidence...

[XFool]

So sorry, XFool, but I really don't think I have suggested this anywhere. If anything I've tried to stress that the executor may have no ability to negotiate: such negotiation is neither their responsibility nor their right.

What I did suggest several times is to try to contact the beneficiary(s) to ask them for help.

How do I do that when I don't know who the beneficiaries are and it's none of my business? Will the executor tell me? The only person who currently knows, apart from the executor is, presumably, the cousin in America.

OMG, I did not suggest you contact the executor but that the people who are related to the deceased contact the executor. I hope we are not playing a game here...

Oh let's just forget about it then.