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Disability claims

including wills and probate
genou
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Re: Disability claims

#12927

Postby genou » December 7th, 2016, 11:06 am

Clitheroekid wrote:
genou wrote:
On the "less than ideal" ; Jesus CK, please retract that.

Certainly not! The `ideal' employee is chosen solely on merit. If external factors like compliance with discrimination law persuade the employer to choose someone different then that person is by definition `less than ideal'.


Change your premise from 29 year old woman/ man. Two 28 year old men. One has epilepsy, one does not. Are you still willing to describe one or of the applicants as "less than ideal" ?

Given the mod's last post , I'll leave it there.

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Re: Disability claims

#13230

Postby patrickmacqueen » December 8th, 2016, 10:13 am

As I understand it, some of the contributors to this thread are saying that the anti-discrimination laws shouldn't apply to small businesses.

In general terms these laws make it unlawful for an employer to treat someone worse because of one or more of the the following "protected characteristics"

age
disability
gender reassignment
marriage and civil partnership
pregnancy and maternity
race
religion or belief
sex
sexual orientation

From a straightforward dis-application of the equality laws for small businesses it would logically follow that it should be legal for a job advertisement to say "no [blacks/women/gays/Muslims/whatever] need apply" - after all, if a small employer has decided that he or she is not going to hire someone in one of these categories, it would be unfair to make a candidate waste their time with a hopeless application.

Have I missed anything, or is that what CK, dspp and quelquod actually support?

dspp
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Re: Disability claims

#13270

Postby dspp » December 8th, 2016, 11:15 am

patrickmacqueen wrote:As I understand it, some of the contributors to this thread are saying that the anti-discrimination laws shouldn't apply to small businesses. ......- after all, if a small employer has decided that he or she is not going to hire someone in one of these categories, it would be unfair to make a candidate waste their time with a hopeless application.


I have commented elsewhere that I wasn't going to become further involved, but you have asked me a direct question. You make a very fair point. However the reality at the moment is that some of these candidates, for some of these employers, are already wasting their time - they just don't know when not to bother. I have said that in my case when hiring I acknowledge the hiring risk and press on regardless to hire the best candidate. Others have said that they acknowledge the risk and allow it to influence their hiring decision. So clearly there is a hiring risk, and clearly some employers are taking it into account. Perhaps therefore it is more honest to allow the small employer to be candid up front.

By the way I am well aware of these factors playing against the classic white British male in some situations. In order to bring in an employee from abroad on a visa there is a need to show you've advertised the job in the relevant places. Why do you think that there used to be all those small print job ads in the back of some national newspapers (now probably online last time I tangled with the visa application process) - many were to allow the employer to firmly reject all applicants on some scoresheet and then bring in candidate Z from abroad. If you've ever had a candid talk with dual-national business owners from some countries you would know that ... and then of course their job was to get a passport and then marry and bring in the spouse and rinse & repeat. My point is that discrimination goes on in practice on grounds that we may find distasteful, but sometimes the cure is worse than the disease.

This is a difficult one and I do not know the answer for sure. Like I said I hire anyway so I can look my daughter in the eye one day. But there is a real risk to the business by doing so.

regards, dspp

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Re: Disability claims

#13304

Postby Gengulphus » December 8th, 2016, 12:31 pm

patrickmacqueen wrote:As I understand it, some of the contributors to this thread are saying that the anti-discrimination laws shouldn't apply to small businesses.
...
Have I missed anything, or is that what CK, dspp and quelquod actually support?


I cannot speak for them, but as far as I'm concerned, I think the anti-discrimination laws should take the costs and risk they impose on small businesses into account. How, I don't know, beyond the belief that "cliff edge" effects need to be avoided where possible. That means that straightforward disapplication of anti-discrimination laws on a "less than N employees" criterion is not a very good idea: instead, the anti-discrimination laws need to soften their impact on small businesses, preferably in some way that gradually fades away as the number of employees increases rather than jumping abruptly at some particular number of employees.

Gengulphus

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Re: Disability claims

#13320

Postby quelquod » December 8th, 2016, 1:10 pm

Have I missed anything, or is that what CK, dspp and quelquod actually support?

I think you've deliberately missed quite a lot in the interests of making a point which isn't in debate. See my earlier posts. Whilst in general only discriminating to the same extent that I expect most people favour their subconscious biases (and with due deference to the title of this board) I've refused to accept the disproportionate risks of having a key employee disappear and not be able to be replaced for a very considerable time. This is a practical result of ill-considered legislation.

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Re: Disability claims

#13334

Postby patrickmacqueen » December 8th, 2016, 1:48 pm

I think you've deliberately missed quite a lot in the interests of making a point which isn't in debate. See my earlier posts.


I don't think so. What I've observed in previous posts by you is an argument that the equality legislation is counterproductive, in that it encourages employers to avoid hiring some people who will end up getting pregnant, leaving early or whatever. For example:

But you rather miss the point (I think I made it clearly enough earlier) that this discrimination is actually aggravated because of the legislation.


You also gave a metaphorical three cheers (or two recs) to CK's post in which he said among other things:

If government policy is to engineer social change through anti-discrimination law it should only do so where the organisation is either publicly funded or large enough to be able to take on less than ideal people without it having any serious effect on its performance.


So I don't think it's unreasonable for me to surmise that you're not in favour of equality legislation, at least as it applies to small businesses. And businesses which are free from equality legislation will, presumably, be able to discriminate openly against whomever they choose. My purpose in putting it as starkly as this is to try and make people who, like a lot of us, enjoy a good moan about various aspects of modern life, face up to some of the consequences of winding the clock back.

quelquod
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Re: Disability claims

#13401

Postby quelquod » December 8th, 2016, 4:17 pm

[So I don't think it's unreasonable for me to surmise that you're not in favour of equality legislation, at least as it applies to small businesses.

Well, rather than leave it there I will tell you that I am generally opposed to discrimination. Nevertheless I won't take needless business risks where I have no way of mitigating them. So far as I'm concerned this falls into the pseudo-democracy situation of 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to eat for lunch and in any case it's nothing at all to do with equality.

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Re: Disability claims

#13517

Postby Clitheroekid » December 8th, 2016, 11:43 pm

patrickmacqueen wrote:From a straightforward dis-application of the equality laws for small businesses it would logically follow that it should be legal for a job advertisement to say "no [blacks/women/gays/Muslims/whatever] need apply" - after all, if a small employer has decided that he or she is not going to hire someone in one of these categories, it would be unfair to make a candidate waste their time with a hopeless application.

Have I missed anything, or is that what CK, dspp and quelquod actually support?

It's a fair point, and the short answer is that no, I certainly wouldn't support that proposal. I would find it offensive, as, I hope, would the vast majority of people.

But this whole issue is bedevilled with hypocrisy. In practical terms many employers may as well include the proposed wording in their job advertisements, as they have no intention of employing one or more of the groups mentioned. So as I've said before, all the law does in such situations is to suppress open expression of discrimination. It doesn't change the underlying attitude - in fact in some cases it probably reinforces such attitudes by the very fact of forcibly suppressing them.

And the fundamental question of whether or not such discrimination is `morally' justifiable is highly subjective. I would take the view that the owner of a small business who decides not to employ a young woman because of the risk that she may have a child is behaving reasonably and that he has not transgressed any moral code, whereas if he chose not to employ someone simply because they were black I would consider that to be a result of bigotry rather than for any genuine business reason and that such a decision should be condemned.

However, even though the employer may in that example be morally culpable I still think that their freedom to choose who to employ should outweigh any discrimination issues, so that they should not be subject to legal sanctions. As I said in an earlier post where there are only a handful of employees who by definition all have a close relationship with the employer it's absolutely critical that they all have a good relationship with him, and he should therefore have complete freedom to choose his employees without any constraint.

What we want to achieve is a situation where people are genuinely non-discriminatory, and I do believe that we have been moving in that direction generally over the past few decades. Because younger people have grown up in a much more mixed environment than the average white, middle-class, middle-aged male they are more accepting of difference anyway, without the law having to try and force them into it. Ideally, I would like to see the day when all discrimination law could be repealed, simply because it had become irrelevant.

In the imperfect meantime I accept without reservation anti-discrimination law that punishes `hate crimes'. I also accept that it's reasonable to apply anti-discrimination employment laws to larger companies and organisations so as to enable some positive discrimination in favour of disadvantaged minorities as a matter of social policy. But such legislation is counter-productive in the case of small businesses, benefiting neither employer nor employee, and they should not be subjected to it.

Where and how the line should be drawn is a difficult question, but fortunately not one that I have to answer!

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Re: Disability claims

#13676

Postby Diziet » December 9th, 2016, 2:32 pm

And the fundamental question of whether or not such discrimination is `morally' justifiable is highly subjective. I would take the view that the owner of a small business who decides not to employ a young woman because of the risk that she may have a child is behaving reasonably and that he has not transgressed any moral code, whereas if he chose not to employ someone simply because they were black I would consider that to be a result of bigotry rather than for any genuine business reason and that such a decision should be condemned.


And what happens to the women whose careers are curtailed purely because they may have a child at some point in the future (or, shock horror, because they may have a child already?)? Presumably their income contributes to the economy, and in our sympathy for the small business owner we significantly limit the employment prospects and income generation of a whole chunk of the population. Which is, of course, why these laws are in existence.

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Re: Disability claims

#13736

Postby Gengulphus » December 9th, 2016, 4:45 pm

Diziet wrote:
And the fundamental question of whether or not such discrimination is `morally' justifiable is highly subjective. I would take the view that the owner of a small business who decides not to employ a young woman because of the risk that she may have a child is behaving reasonably and that he has not transgressed any moral code, whereas if he chose not to employ someone simply because they were black I would consider that to be a result of bigotry rather than for any genuine business reason and that such a decision should be condemned.


And what happens to the women whose careers are curtailed purely because they may have a child at some point in the future (or, shock horror, because they may have a child already?)? Presumably their income contributes to the economy, and in our sympathy for the small business owner we significantly limit the employment prospects and income generation of a whole chunk of the population. Which is, of course, why these laws are in existence.


And if we have no sympathy for the small business owner, we discourage them from being small business owners who have employees at all - and that also limits employment prospects and income generation... Which is, of course, why the laws concerned need to show some sympathy for both sides.

The difficult question is how!

Gengulphus

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Re: Disability claims

#13770

Postby quelquod » December 9th, 2016, 6:04 pm

Diziet wrote:And what happens to the women whose careers are curtailed purely because they may have a child at some point in the future (or, shock horror, because they may have a child already?)? Presumably their income contributes to the economy, and in our sympathy for the small business owner we significantly limit the employment prospects and income generation of a whole chunk of the population. Which is, of course, why these laws are in existence.


The UK has one of the highest (the highest?) rate of new business startups, predominantly small of course, in Europe and the highest failure rate. When a small business fails it takes with it the employment and income of all of its employees and frequently much of the assets of its owner and FWIW its contribution to the economy. Transferring these potential costs to it which should be those of the state transfers a liability which it should not have to bear. There is no other personal choice whose cost has to be borne in this way. As (I think CK) said earlier if the state sees this as a cost worth bearing, then it should bear it. Already having children is not at issue.

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Re: Disability claims

#14294

Postby modellingman » December 12th, 2016, 10:28 am

quelquod wrote:The UK has one of the highest (the highest?) rate of new business startups, predominantly small of course, in Europe and the highest failure rate.


Although not essential to the rest of your argument, these statements do strike me as being rather bold. I would be genuinely interested in seeing any sources you have for making them.

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Re: Disability claims

#14330

Postby chas49 » December 12th, 2016, 12:16 pm

quelquod may have other sources, but the employer enterprise birth rate here (http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/struct ... indicators) shows for 2014 data, that the UK had the highest birth rate for enterprises with 1-4 employees, second highest for 5 -9 employees, highest for 10+ employees. For some reason that I can't fathom, the UK is 5th highest for all sizes of enterprise.

But in any case this does tend to support his assertion :)

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Re: Disability claims

#14453

Postby Diziet » December 12th, 2016, 4:38 pm

The UK has one of the highest (the highest?) rate of new business startups, predominantly small of course, in Europe and the highest failure rate.


So are we talking about special protection for small businesses to get out of anti-discrimination laws, or are you saying that they should be able to opt out of employing women of childbearing age (so say 18-50?). Or that small businesses should be indemnified of any eventuality relating to not employing a white man with no health issues or disabilities?

In any case, the simple way of levelling out the playing field regarding children is compulsory parental leave equally shared between men and women. I have a feeling this is unlikely to happen, but it would level things remarkably well.

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Re: Disability claims

#14503

Postby modellingman » December 12th, 2016, 7:07 pm

chas49 wrote:quelquod may have other sources, but the employer enterprise birth rate here (http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/struct ... indicators) shows for 2014 data, that the UK had the highest birth rate for enterprises with 1-4 employees, second highest for 5 -9 employees, highest for 10+ employees. For some reason that I can't fathom, the UK is 5th highest for all sizes of enterprise.

But in any case this does tend to support his assertion :)


At the peril of being struck down as being off-topic...

I had also come across those indicators on the Eurostat site.

IMHO the indicator for birth rates under a heading of "Entrepreneurial Performance" are flawed in that they they use the number of existing businesses as the denominator rather than a population based measure. If a country has an unusually low (or high) number of businesses relative to its size of population then that will increase (decrease) its business birth rate compared to using a population based denominator. In the context of entrepreneurialism a population based denominator is more appropriate since it is measuring the rate at which individuals form new businesses. Birth rates measured using numbers of existing businesses as their denominator have their uses but measuring the entrepreneurial characteristics of a population is not one of them.

A quick look at other data for 2014 on the Eurostat website (number of enterprises, births of enterprises and resident population) suggests that the UK does have a lower than average number of businesses* when measured on a population basis (34 per 1000 population compared to an EU average of 52). [* enterprises in NACE/SIC 2007 classes B-N]. As a result, when business birth rates are expressed on a population basis, the UK rate is slightly below the EU average: 4.92 per 1000 population cf 5.07.

I would not claim much for my quick-and-dirty analysis. If I wanted to make the claim that quelquod was wrong in his assertions, I would back it up with a more rigorous case than I have set out above.

I made my comment about data sources...

modellingman wrote:
quelquod wrote:The UK has one of the highest (the highest?) rate of new business startups, predominantly small of course, in Europe and the highest failure rate.


Although not essential to the rest of your argument, these statements do strike me as being rather bold. I would be genuinely interested in seeing any sources you have for making them.


...because bold, unreferenced statements should be open to challenge, particularly on boards such as these.

It is serendipitous that the response to this challenge has also identified that care is always needed when using and interpreting official statistics. Sorry if that sounds smug. It is not meant to be.

As I have noted, the bold statements, were not essential to quelquod's argument and I will not indulge myself further by distracting from the interesting discourse on the recruitment challenges faced by small businesses.

modellingman

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Re: Disability claims

#14534

Postby Clitheroekid » December 12th, 2016, 9:05 pm

Diziet wrote:In any case, the simple way of levelling out the playing field regarding children is compulsory parental leave equally shared between men and women. I have a feeling this is unlikely to happen, but it would level things remarkably well.

I'm not sure I understand this - what do you mean by "compulsory" parental leave?

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Re: Disability claims

#14612

Postby Diziet » December 13th, 2016, 8:59 am

I'm not sure I understand this - what do you mean by "compulsory" parental leave?


For example, if a woman is taking 6 months maternity leave then she takes 3 months and the father takes 3 months. I am aware there will be a million objections, but it would change the mindset pretty effectively.

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Re: Disability claims

#14674

Postby Gengulphus » December 13th, 2016, 11:46 am

Diziet wrote:
I'm not sure I understand this - what do you mean by "compulsory" parental leave?


For example, if a woman is taking 6 months maternity leave then she takes 3 months and the father takes 3 months. I am aware there will be a million objections, but it would change the mindset pretty effectively.


Depends what mindset you're talking about...

In particular, I can think of at least three mindsets that it might change: the mindset of generally obeying the law, the mindset of voting for politicians who enact ill-thought-out laws, and the mindset of regarding the risks and costs of employing a woman as significantly different from those of employing a man. Which it would be most effective at changing is a good question! ;-)

Gengulphus

Clitheroekid
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Re: Disability claims

#14685

Postby Clitheroekid » December 13th, 2016, 12:06 pm

Diziet wrote:
I'm not sure I understand this - what do you mean by "compulsory" parental leave?


For example, if a woman is taking 6 months maternity leave then she takes 3 months and the father takes 3 months. I am aware there will be a million objections, but it would change the mindset pretty effectively.

So would you propose making such leave compulsory? Such a move would be extremely draconian, and impossible to enforce.

What happens if - as would probably be the usual situation - the father doesn't want to take 3 months' leave and the mother wants the full 6 months' leave? Or if neither parent wants the full 3 months' leave? Are you proposing that people who refuse to comply should be punished in some way?

Frankly, it sounds like a recipe for disaster.

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Re: Disability claims

#14687

Postby Diziet » December 13th, 2016, 12:11 pm

Well, maternity leave seems to be a disaster for women's career prospects, judging from this thread, so sharing the burden seems fair. I don't make policy, but I am sure it would be possible to work something out that would be fair and equitable.


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