Dying without a will

[wheypat]

Moderator Message:
RS: Moved to Legal Board. Shadow left here.

My mother-in-lar refuses point blank to make a will or even discuss making a will. I've tried several times with her (as have her children) but all that happens is she breaks into floods of tears and says she's not ready to think about dying yet. And anyway, she says, it's simple, I want to split my assest between my children.

I know she is being stupid, but this is reality, she will not make a will. And it's not up for discussion

So, when she dies, what happens? She will (hopefully) be survived by her 3 children, 5 grandchildren and (probably) her spiteful younger sister who was an absolute cow when their parents died (my wife was named as executor of her grandmother's will and the afore mentioned twisted sister threatened legal action over the grandmother's will and my wife's handling of it as 'she was robbed'). We expect that should she survive my mother-in-law she will demand 'her share' of the estate.

Please don't tell us to get her to make a will, it ain't going to happen.

[swill453]

Intestacy guide here https://www.gov.uk/inherits-someone-dies-without-will

Scott.

[gryffron]

So from Scott's link it looks like the children share equally. Exactly as she wishes.

The only other issue is who gets to administer the estate? Looks like the children also: https://www.clarionsolicitors.com/blog/ ... administer

No great problems as it appears so clear in this case. As you can see from both links, siblings rank behind children AND grandchildren in both cases. So unless there are complications you are not telling us about, like she is separated but not divorced from earlier marriage etc...

Gryff

[argoal]

Swill's link will say the same but the rule is:

Children - if there is no surviving married or civil partner

If there is no surviving partner, the children of a person who has died without leaving a will inherit the whole estate. This applies however much the estate is worth. If there are two or more children, the estate will be divided equally between them.

Children - if there is a surviving partner

If there is a surviving partner, a child only inherits from the estate if the estate is valued at over £250,000. If there are two or more children, the children will inherit in equal shares:

one half of the value of the estate above £250,000.

All the children of the parent who has died intestate inherit equally from the estate. This also applies where a parent has children from different relationships.

No mention of spiteful younger sisters anywhere in the rules as far as I can see if there are children involved. She won't have any course to appeal unless there are exceptional circumstances such as she would be made homeless and destitute by the execution of the will.

[swill453]

Children - if there is a surviving partner

If there is a surviving partner, a child only inherits from the estate if the estate is valued at over £250,000. If there are two or more children, the children will inherit in equal shares:

one half of the value of the estate above £250,000.

You're being a bit more specific, and getting into the area where the rules are different depending on which country of the UK you are in.

However it seems in the OP's case, no such complication is involved, and the rule is the same throughout the UK.

Scott.

[yorkshirelad1]

My mother-in-lar refuses point blank to make a will or even discuss making a will. I've tried several times with her (as have her children) but all that happens is she breaks into floods of tears and says she's not ready to think about dying yet. And anyway, she says, it's simple, I want to split my assest between my children.

I know she is being stupid, but this is reality, she will not make a will. And it's not up for discussion

So, when she dies, what happens? She will (hopefully) be survived by her 3 children, 5 grandchildren and (probably) her spiteful younger sister who was an absolute cow when their parents died (my wife was named as executor of her grandmother's will and the afore mentioned twisted sister threatened legal action over the grandmother's will and my wife's handling of it as 'she was robbed'). We expect that should she survive my mother-in-law she will demand 'her share' of the estate.

Please don't tell us to get her to make a will, it ain't going to happen.

A really simple will saying just that is really quick and easy to get written (solicitors have Will Making Weeks where they do a free will in return for a donation to a nominated charity). Dying without a will is covered by the rules of intestacy as noted by others on this thread. Having a simple will in place makes it a lot easier for those left behind and saves a lot of work and administration at a time when there enough things to be dealing with. Does your MIL want to see the family split over arguing, and see most of her hard-earned readies get consumed in legal fees? But if your MIL doesn't want to think about dying then you have more worries than lack of Will e.g. getting her affairs in order, where are her important documents, is there any life insurance, does she have a list of her bank accounts, what about online accounts and passwords, what sort of funeral does she want, is she (part-) owner of the house and where are the house deeds etc etc. I've just finished executing a will for a friend: it was a simple Will, she was organised about her paperwork etc which made it a lot easier and quicker (not to mention cheaper) for which I am thankful: it would have been very awkward if there hadn't have been a will (there was an estranged daughter and a recently almost-divored (ex-)husband who were both disinherited). Sorry, this isn't what you wanted to hear ("Please don't tell us to get her to make a will,") but maybe if your MIL heard it from someone else who's done it and isn't a family member and has recent experience, maybe that would help? IANAL.

[wheypat]

My mother-in-lar refuses point blank to make a will or even discuss making a will. I've tried several times with her (as have her children) but all that happens is she breaks into floods of tears and says she's not ready to think about dying yet. And anyway, she says, it's simple, I want to split my assest between my children.

I know she is being stupid, but this is reality, she will not make a will. And it's not up for discussion

So, when she dies, what happens? She will (hopefully) be survived by her 3 children, 5 grandchildren and (probably) her spiteful younger sister who was an absolute cow when their parents died (my wife was named as executor of her grandmother's will and the afore mentioned twisted sister threatened legal action over the grandmother's will and my wife's handling of it as 'she was robbed'). We expect that should she survive my mother-in-law she will demand 'her share' of the estate.

Please don't tell us to get her to make a will, it ain't going to happen.

A really simple will saying just that is really quick and easy to get written (solicitors have Will Making Weeks where they do a free will in return for a donation to a nominated charity). Dying without a will is covered by the rules of intestacy as noted by others on this thread. Having a simple will in place makes it a lot easier for those left behind and saves a lot of work and administration at a time when there enough things to be dealing with. Does your MIL want to see the family split over arguing, and see most of her hard-earned readies get consumed in legal fees? But if your MIL doesn't want to think about dying then you have more worries than lack of Will e.g. getting her affairs in order, where are her important documents, is there any life insurance, does she have a list of her bank accounts, what about online accounts and passwords, what sort of funeral does she want, is she (part-) owner of the house and where are the house deeds etc etc. I've just finished executing a will for a friend: it was a simple Will, she was organised about her paperwork etc which made it a lot easier and quicker (not to mention cheaper) for which I am thankful: it would have been very awkward if there hadn't have been a will (there was an estranged daughter and a recently almost-divored (ex-)husband who were both disinherited). Sorry, this isn't what you wanted to hear ("Please don't tell us to get her to make a will,") but maybe if your MIL heard it from someone else who's done it and isn't a family member and has recent experience, maybe that would help? IANAL.

You are preaching to the converted but she has made it plain that she will not do this under any circumstances - she cannot face up to the fact that she is going to die (one day) and refuses to contemplate it. So yes, I'm with you 100% but it is not going to happen. Luckily all of her children do get on very well so at least they won't be fighting over the estate (I think).

[ouzo]

I looked at this from the opposite point of view - what if I died before I made a will!

[doug2500]

she cannot face up to the fact that she is going to die (one day) and refuses to contemplate it.

The evidence is overwhelming

I remember being fairly horrified when my parents made me make a will at 18. I was not overly happy about it but it made sense as I had a share in some business assets at the time. Since then it has been a source of bemusement to me why otherwise sensible people balk at the thought of a will.

[pochisoldi]

Looks to me that this is something that will have to be handled by her children at the right time, together and alone.

"Right time" being some point in the future where MIL might be thinking about their own mortality (friend/close relative/someone young that she liked dies/suffers a serious illness).
"Together" meaning a joint initiative towards Mum by all her children.
"Alone" means just the children, and also being seen to be acting on their own initiative to help Mum deal with something that she'd rather not deal with.

Hope this helps
PochiSoldi

[wheypat]

Looks to me that this is something that will have to be handled by her children at the right time, together and alone.

"Right time" being some point in the future where MIL might be thinking about their own mortality (friend/close relative/someone young that she liked dies/suffers a serious illness).
"Together" meaning a joint initiative towards Mum by all her children.
"Alone" means just the children, and also being seen to be acting on their own initiative to help Mum deal with something that she'd rather not deal with.

Hope this helps
PochiSoldi

They've tried, I've tried. She had a stroke a couple of years ago which I thought might make her face up to it, but no. All that happens is they have magicaly famly arguments, floods of tears and a ong silent period. Thanks all for the links though, very useful to know that the witch like sister can't muscle in and claim her estate

[Lootman]

A Will really only matters if Probate is needed. Someone who cannot be persuaded to make a Will might be persuaded to take steps to ensure that no Probate is needed. This could involve the transfer of assets and accounts to her children, or setting up her assets so that they jointly owned with her children. In both such cases there would then be no Estate to administer. The assets would automatically transfer to her children upon her death, and there may no more work to do, especially if no IHT was due.

Easier to pull off if she doesn't own a property.

[Maylix]

Hi Wheypat
You've been given good info on intestacy rules. From the sounds of it, two things are certain
1. there wont be a will
2. the sister is going to cause problems, no matter what the intestacy rules /any will says.

Lootman has given you some advice on how to avoid/minimise probate and I would just add one thing; the best defence against the sister is a) knowing the rules (which are in your favour), and b) a united front from the children. So make sure that the 3 children know and would be happy to repeat after their mum passes that they had conversations with her where she said that she didn't want to make a will and that she wanted to split her assets equally amongst the children. Hopefully the united front will deter the sister, but, depending on how spiteful and mendacious the sister is, and worst comes to worst and a will (orchestrated by the sister) appears after the event, you will want a firm footing for contesting it.
HTH
Maylix

[pochisoldi]

They've tried, I've tried. She had a stroke a couple of years ago which I thought might make her face up to it, but no. All that happens is they have magicaly famly arguments, floods of tears and a ong silent period. Thanks all for the links though, very useful to know that the witch like sister can't muscle in and claim her estate

I would suggest that you keep a record (as much as you can) of all the times the subject was broached and what the response was, just in case a will magically appears from nowhere when the worst does happen...

PochiSoldi

[Clitheroekid]

Hopefully the united front will deter the sister, but, depending on how spiteful and mendacious the sister is, and worst comes to worst and a will (orchestrated by the sister) appears after the event, you will want a firm footing for contesting it.

It sounds exceptionally unlikely that the MIL will be manipulated into making a Will that favours her sister, as is being suggested. And as there isn't the slightest prospect of the sister being able to claim anything in the absence of a Will there's really no need for this at all.

If the MIL wants her estate divided equally between the three children and there's unlikely to be any argument between them as to who should administer the estate then - and it's not often I say this - there really isn't much need for a Will, as it would simply set out what will happen anyway.

I've tried several times with her (as have her children) but all that happens is she breaks into floods of tears and says she's not ready to think about dying yet.

As there is absolutely no need for her to make a Will in this situation there's no justification for nagging her to do so and making her feel upset. In fact, I would take the view that the decent thing to do is to say you've taken legal advice and the good news is that what she wants will happen anyway. You can all then relax and get on with your lives without worrying about a non-existent problem.

[AndyPandy]

Something that Yorkshirelad1 touched on.

Does the MiL openly support any charities? Could a child of the MiL approach said charity(ies) to see if they are part of Will Writing week and, if so, could the charity put MiL onto their mailing list for Will Writing week? A nudge from that direction might be more effective than pleading from children.

[Clitheroekid]

A Will really only matters if Probate is needed. Someone who cannot be persuaded to make a Will might be persuaded to take steps to ensure that no Probate is needed. This could involve the transfer of assets and accounts to her children, or setting up her assets so that they jointly owned with her children. In both such cases there would then be no Estate to administer. The assets would automatically transfer to her children upon her death, and there may no more work to do, especially if no IHT was due.

Easier to pull off if she doesn't own a property.

As a general point the biggest danger of transferring assets to your child is that you may need them in later life to pay for care. Unfortunately, whilst one would like to think that one's grateful children would reciprocate by paying for that care this is very often not the case. Even if they are inclined to do so (and many aren't) they may well have spent the money.

Also, whilst this sort of scheme may sound superficially attractive it's actually extremely hazardous where the transfer of a house is concerned, and the dangers and potential costs of undertaking such an exercise can far outweigh the minor disadvantages of having to obtain probate.

The three biggest risks of transferring a house to one's children are known as the three D's - death, divorce and debt.

If you give your house to your child they may suddenly die without having made a Will. In that case you may find that `your' house is now owned by your child's spouse or child, who may decide they'd like to cash in and turf you out.

Or your child may find themselves being divorced, so that you end up in a house owned by your child's ex-spouse, who may also decide that you are no longer welcome to live there.

The third risk is that your child becomes insolvent. Although this may sound unlikely, over 100,000 people a year in the UK are formally declared insolvent. If your child is made bankrupt `your' home will be an asset in the bankruptcy. The trustee in bankruptcy is legally obliged to force a sale in order to raise money for your child's creditors, potentially leaving you out on the streets.

These situations can arise whether you have transferred the property outright or whether you have transferred it into joint ownership.

And they are not just theoretical. I have personally dealt with situations where each of these scenarios actually happened. In each case the parties involved had dealt with the transfer themselves with the help of the Land Registry. Unfortunately, the LR, whilst helping people to deal with conveyancing, do not and are not qualified to provide advice with regard to the ramifications of that conveyancing.

It's another irony, rather like people making their own Wills, that lawyers make far more money from the results of their doing so than from actually doing the Will making / conveyancing in the first place!

[midnightcatprowl]

Think we should acknowledge the value of the the two remarkably sensible and useful posts from Clitheroekid.

I'd just like to add though that I'm surprised that so many posting on this thread do not fully comprehend the extreme aversion to making a will which afflicts a significant number of people. The reasons can include:

a belief that by making a will they would be signing their own death warrant - and in certain families that could indeed be the case of course;

a belief that people urging them to make a will are effectively trying to 'drive them into their grave';

a superstitious belief that the making of a will makes it more likely that you will die;

an inability to come to terms in any way at all with the fact that sooner or later you WILL die. This is quite different from hoping you won't die for a while yet or hoping to live as long as possible and it is also quite different to simply being afraid of death which most people are at least to some degree. It is an inability to come intellectually and emotionally to terms with the fact that your life is finite. People who feel like this are never going to give in to persuasion nor to explanations about the horrid example of x who died without a will and the evil consequences thereof because they are unable to cope with the concept of their death and bitterly resent anyone who tries to persuade them of the validity of the concept.

[wheypat]

Think we should acknowledge the value of the the two remarkably sensible and useful posts from Clitheroekid.

I'd just like to add though that I'm surprised that so many posting on this thread do not fully comprehend the extreme aversion to making a will which afflicts a significant number of people. The reasons can include:

a belief that by making a will they would be signing their own death warrant - and in certain families that could indeed be the case of course;

a belief that people urging them to make a will are effectively trying to 'drive them into their grave';

a superstitious belief that the making of a will makes it more likely that you will die;

an inability to come to terms in any way at all with the fact that sooner or later you WILL die. This is quite different from hoping you won't die for a while yet or hoping to live as long as possible and it is also quite different to simply being afraid of death which most people are at least to some degree. It is an inability to come intellectually and emotionally to terms with the fact that your life is finite. People who feel like this are never going to give in to persuasion nor to explanations about the horrid example of x who died without a will and the evil consequences thereof because they are unable to cope with the concept of their death and bitterly resent anyone who tries to persuade them of the validity of the concept.

#

Thanks all - particularly to the guide for what happens when she dies and who gets the loot (not that will be vast sums involved). A will is not going to happen (to put this in perspective my cat died recently and when the MIL asked about him to be told he was dead we had another 20 minutes of tears - any mention of death and this is what happens). She cannot, she will not, for reasons I cannot understand, face up to death. It seems to be that the best result is to drop the subject entirely and then when she goes (as we all will one day) let her children deal with the situation. None of the kids need money (which is nice) and they all get on (which is nice) and we are probably looking at an estate <150K, assuming non is spent on care home fees in the future.

My main worry was that the twisted sister (TS) could claim the lot, which she can't (this is of course assuming that the sister outlives the MIL and that if/when the MIL dies the sister finds out, as they've not spoken since their father's funeral 10 years ago - not even Christmas cards). Once their parents estate was divided by my wife the TS threatened all kinds of legal action 'to get her fair share'. It was so petty she demanded an extra £25 to cover the bank fees for dispersing the estate value once everything was sold.

Families and money eh?

[dubre]

Almost all the people who I know to have transferred property etc. have taken this extremely risky measure with the hope of avoiding IHT and, in particular,care home fees.All with the help of a lawyer!