Impasse over land ownership

[sackofspuds]

I have a 50% share in a small plot of agricultural land.

The other half is in the name of my deceased sister. We were tenants in common.

She died over 10 years ago while overseas and my brother in law never did go through UK probate because the half share of the land was pretty much her only UK asset; all else was in cash which he got. Don't think he went through probate at all.

She died intestate. She was barely 40.

The land has a barn on it and clearly a decaying building is a liability rather than an asset.

Problem is that my ex brother in law cannot be bothered to get the land put in his name. Presumably this would mean going through probate.

He lives in the USA and is probably a US citizen by now; he married one. He also has UK citizenship and Canadian citizenship. He is never going to live in the UK.

He certainly doesn't need the money from the land and neither do I.

However, I don't want the liability of it.

I did think he could send me my sister's death certificate and I could get her taken off the deeds. This looks straightforward.

I could then rent it to the people who live next door - they are interested - and they could maintain it. Perhaps I could even sell it but that's not my main objective.

I have explained to my ex brother in law that the barn makes this a liability not an asset and this needs sorting out but he just can't be bothered.

We are not on bad terms but not close.

Is there anything I can do to force the issue?

[didds]

not a legal answer but...

you are not on bad terms, but not close. he will never ever live in the UK. So if you end up hacking him off youve nothing to olsoe anyway.

Good luck with the legal stuff. It strikes me if you were to wander onto the land and remove the barn (dunno how easy that would be !) he wouldnl;t know anyway.

WRT to things like "Dangerous Weeds Act" (rings a bell with me somewhere) who maintains the land currently?

didds

[sackofspuds]

Hi Didds, Nobody maintains it currently which is why it needs sorting out.

[kempiejon]

Sackofspuds,

You said if you could get your sisters death certificate it would be easy to get her removed from the deeds. I know little about how land deeds work but if you know this process you can get a copy of the death certificate from the GRO for a £10/20.
https://www.gov.uk/order-copy-birth-dea ... ertificate

[sackofspuds]

Hi kempiejon

Problem is she died in Singapore.

From what I gathered from the Land Registry, in the case of land the Land Registry doesn't differentiate between joint tenants and tenants in common. It seemed on my reading of it that if I sent them an original death certificate then her name could be removed and I could at least rent the paddock to the neighbours on a self maintaining lease. Obviously this is not an ideal way of going, better would be for my ex brother in law to organise probate properly and we could then decide what to do once half was in his name but I see next to no chance of this happening.

Actually, I am assuming here that I don't already have the legal right to enter into a rental agreement with the neighbours. I am assuming I don't because I own only half but I guess I could be wrong.

[LittleDorrit]

Adverse possession?

[dspp]

Adverse possession?

seconded

[Mike88]

Normally land with a barn on it is very valuable as it is ripe for development on the footprint. Knock it down and the value is probably lost.

[gryffron]

I did think he could send me my sister's death certificate and I could get her taken off the deeds...
Problem is she died in Singapore.

Google is your friend: https://www.mfa.gov.sg/content/mfa/over ... icate.html
"APPLICATION FOR DEATH EXTRACT... Eligibility: The family members or anyone who is related to the deceased... Application via Internet... S$40.00" c£22.

Adverse possession sounds a better way to go though. Cos then it's yours not BiL's.

Gryff

[sackofspuds]

Thanks gryffron, I didn't think the Singaporean government would be so accommodating regarding overseas applications. I also thought my ex brother in law could have got his act together and popped one of his certified copies in the post but it doesn't look like he ever will.

[Clitheroekid]

Adverse possession?

seconded

It doesn't matter if it's thirded, fourthed or hundreded - it's impossible for a joint owner to claim adverse possession against his co-owner. If you want chapter and verse it's Schedule 1, paragraph 9 of the Limitation Act 1980.

Unfortunately, the only straightforward way of resolving it is by obtaining a grant of probate. However, from a purely pragmatic point of view you might be able to avoid doing so if the BIL was willing to sign a declaration to the effect that he holds his half share on trust for you as the sole beneficial owner - i.e. he would be effectively giving the half share to you.

A possible issue is that when people own as tenants in common the Land Registry usually registers a `Form A' restriction against the title, saying that a sole owner can't give a good receipt for sale proceeds. This would complicate matters, as you would have to persuade LR that they were justified in removing the restriction and then make an application for removal. However, this should be possible if your BIL were willing to execute the declaration of trust.

[sackofspuds]

Thanks Clitheroekid, I was hoping you'd reply!

Yes, I actually checked the Land Reg details again last night and there is indeed a Form A restriction on it. The explanation of it that the Land Reg provide is a tough read!

A grant of probate is what I have been telling my BiL that he would require. Too much trouble for him thus far, unfortunately.

Interesting about the declaration of trust but without a grant of probate, do you think it's likely the Land Reg would accept that he is entitled to my late sister's share?

I began the process of obtaining a certified copy of my late sister's death certificate from the Singapore authorities before I noticed the Form A restriction. Do you think there any point in obtaining the certificate and sending it to the Land Reg with the appropriate form?

In the short term I'd like to rent the land to the neighbours so someone can maintain it and I'm sure my BiL would be happy to carry on kicking the can down the road by doing this. The problem is that I don't know if either of us is entitled to enter into a rental agreement with a third party, given he's not on the deeds and I own only half. Any rent would be nominal or, if it helped, free.

[Clitheroekid]

Interesting about the declaration of trust but without a grant of probate, do you think it's likely the Land Reg would accept that he is entitled to my late sister's share?

It's obviously a very unusual situation, and it would be equally unusual to try to persuade LR to release a Form A restriction on this basis. But it would be a considerably simpler procedure than obtaining probate, and I would think it's worth a try. If they refuse to accept the application then you can always go back to the probate route.

One possible solution, if a grant of probate is required, would be for your BIL to grant you a power of attorney, so that you could make the probate application. This would require minimal effort on your brother's part compared to him making the application himself, though he would still have to supply you with full details of the other assets held by your sister.

I began the process of obtaining a certified copy of my late sister's death certificate from the Singapore authorities before I noticed the Form A restriction. Do you think there any point in obtaining the certificate and sending it to the Land Reg with the appropriate form?

Yes. You will need the death certificate whichever route you take. However, you can't just send the death certificate with `the appropriate form' as the appropriate form requires you to prove to LR's satisfaction that you are entitled to request removal of the restriction, and as things stand you clearly aren't.

[sackofspuds]

Thanks again Clitheroekid.

What about renting the field to the neighbours? Do you think I am legally entitled to do that right now?

[PaulBullet]

SackofSpuds

Has he said you cannot rent the land to the neighbor?

if he has not I would simply ask him in an email

Paul

[sackofspuds]

Hi PaulBullet

BiL won't object but question is whether we are legally entitled to do it what with the deeds not regularised.

[didds]

Hi PaulBullet

BiL won't object but question is whether we are legally entitled to do it what with the deeds not regularised.

but who is there to then object? BiL has provided agreement. A contract wilkl presumably exist between you and the renter/tenant.

Who else will "care" ?

didds

[sackofspuds]

Hi didds

When I sign a legal agreement I want to know that it is valid.

Neighbours will keep a horse on the land most likely. I don't want to be sued if their child has an accident.

Presumably a lease would have some kind of clause in it about liability. I want to be sure that any agreement is as legally sound as it can be.

Likewise, a valid lease allows me to terminate it in an organised way.

[didds]

Cheers sackofspuds - I get all that.

But those are concerns/situations whatever you legal or otherwise position of being able to rent the land. If you owned the land outright those concerns would still be valid ones to be covered.

which still brings us back to what legality is actually "checkable", by whom, and for what purpose?

The only issue appears to me (and IANAL) is you renting/leasing the land when you don't actually have the legal right to do - but there appears to be nothing stopping you from doing so and its not as if you are passing yourself off as the landlord of a piece of land to which you are entirely unconnected etc. The only other person with any claim on the land is BiL, that you say has/will provide an OK to do so. There is no other owner of the land to get in your way, land registry don't care/its not their issue who rents it, the police aren't bothered - there is no criminal law involved.

I don't see what is to stop you from continuing in the same way as if you owned it outright. TBH I'm not even sure what would stop you if BiL said no seeing as he clearly has no interest in it anyway and would never find out what happened to it.

CK will now explain chapter and verse as to what the issues I don;t see are

didds

[JonE]

Neighbours will keep a horse on the land most likely.

The headpost refers to the plot as 'agricultural land'. My recollection is that equine use is not usually considered 'agricultural' for planning purposes so it could be viewed as a 'change of use' requiring planning consent.

I've no idea whether this could ever become an issue in practice for you or the neighbours but just mention it as an aspect that may merit some research.

Cheers!