Urgent help with neighbour issue pls

[Rivkah]

So my neighbours have been bullying me for over a year. Things are now getting serious as they've applied to court to ask me to move my waste pipe. My solicitor originally said there was no trespass but is now saying I don't have reasonable prospects for success unless I provide evidence on when the pipe was installed. I have done a survey, looked through all the deeds and can find nothing. The single deed I need I no longer stored by the land registry. I spoke to a contractor who said my solicitor is wrong and that since both houses are grade 2 listed I do enjoy the right to use the pipe since it was likely installed a long time ago.

I would really appreciate any advice on where I can find a private contractor to let me know how much it would cost to move the pipe, as I don't want to go to court.
And also any advice on where I might find out when this drain was put in.
I'm a single mum desperately trying to keep my home and my neighbours will not let up no what. I know the pipe has been there for at least 20 years but I have no way to prove it. Please help. Thank you

[midnightcatprowl]

So sorry to hear of the pressure you are under. Neighbours can be a great blessing or a great curse and you've obviously got the latter. Just a thought but could you define more clearly what you mean by a 'waste' pipe? Would this be essentially a sewer pipe or something else? Also how long have the neighbours been there?

Lynn

[GoSeigen]

Hi and welcome to The Lemon Fool. This is the Legal Issues board, but you have asked the following two questions:

I would really appreciate any advice on where I can find a private contractor to let me know how much it would cost to move the pipe, as I don't want to go to court.
And also any advice on where I might find out when this drain was put in.

Neither of those are legal questions and so off-topic for this board.


There is a Property Investing board here:

viewforum.php?f=13

and DIY/building board here:

viewforum.php?f=40

either of which might be more relevant to the questions.


Or did you actually have a legal question you want answered? In that case you need to say what it is and maybe also give a more detailed history of your dispute.

Good luck.


GS

[supremetwo]

So my neighbours have been bullying me for over a year. Things are now getting serious as they've applied to court to ask me to move my waste pipe. My solicitor originally said there was no trespass but is now saying I don't have reasonable prospects for success unless I provide evidence on when the pipe was installed. I have done a survey, looked through all the deeds and can find nothing. The single deed I need I no longer stored by the land registry. I spoke to a contractor who said my solicitor is wrong and that since both houses are grade 2 listed I do enjoy the right to use the pipe since it was likely installed a long time ago.

I would really appreciate any advice on where I can find a private contractor to let me know how much it would cost to move the pipe, as I don't want to go to court.
And also any advice on where I might find out when this drain was put in.
I'm a single mum desperately trying to keep my home and my neighbours will not let up no what. I know the pipe has been there for at least 20 years but I have no way to prove it. Please help. Thank you

As said, please advise more details, i.e. where does the waste pipe run from and to?

Do you have a legal cover clause in your property insurance?

[Rivkah]

Apologies, my legal question is this:

(The pipe in question is my waste pipe. All the waste from my property goes into a pipe that enters their property, and joins with their waste pipe then exists onto the street to join the sewer). The properties used to be one house, and are grade II listed. My house used to be a shop and dental surgery prior to this. I have records from the Council, but am asking for the applications as at present I can only find documents on whether planning permission was granted.
Neighbours have been there roughly 19 years. I need to prove the pipe was there before they go there, which is clearly was!


Following an application for an injunction to make me move my waste pipe so it does not go through their property, my solicitor had initially advised that I should put in for a counter claim that they are stopping me from enjoying the use of the waste pipe which I should have a right to. As far as I understand we have responded to the court with a counter claim. However, my solicitor is now saying I do not have reasonable prospects of winning the case as I do not have enough evidence.



I need to either find all previous owners and seek a statement to say the pipe was there for the last 20 years. That’s about three different owners and I have no idea how to get a hold of them.

There is a single deed that supposedly covers this information (the existing deeds refer to this but state nothing else re drainage), but this deed is nowhere to be found. The land registry no longer have it.



I need to evidence this pipe somehow to support my case...or find another way to remedy this issue.


They are now asking for my conveyancing file. Which I hope won't open a new can of worms. Nothing in the file to say the pipe is illegally trespassing though.

Thanks in advance

[88V8]

Shared drainage is a common feature of older properties. So what's with the neighbours, are they looking to build over the drain?

You may also get help on the Period Property forum, here
http://www.periodproperty.co.uk/forum/viewforum.php?f=1

V8

[mike]

I need to evidence this pipe somehow to support my case

Many years ago, I resolved a boundary dispute using historical aerial photographs from the national archives.

Time and technology have moved on, and there is a huge library of these online at https://historicengland.org.uk/images-books/archive/collections/aerial-photos/

Although it is only an outside chance your house will be photographed, and also from the correct side of the house to show the down-pipe, it will only take a few minutes to search their database. You will need to register to zoom in.

[JonE]

Neighbours have been there roughly 19 years. I need to prove the pipe was there before they go there, which is clearly was!

What am I missing? Surely they know that they haven't consented to its installation during the past 19 years so why do you need to prove what they already know?

Following the changes in 2011 is it not now the case that the pipe from your property up to your boundary remains a private drain but that pipe then becomes a public sewer/drain up to the point where it joins their private drain and the combined flows then continue along this public sewer/drain until meeting the main? I believe that may well be the case so they're seemingly hassling you about your use of a public sewer - which surely can't be right.

The water authority in your area must have published a guide but the legislation is here:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/201 ... tents/made

Cheers!

[Rivkah]

Thank you. Unfortunately the ariel photos won't help as the drain is underground.
The two houses are attached and the drain goes straight from my house into theirs and out to the street. Thames Water have said it would be trespassing on their property without their permission to be there and I just can't seem to prove that the pipe was there before them!

They don't want to build etc over it. It's too deep down to even impact them. Purely just troubling me...

[dspp]

1. Ask the Water Board for sight of their old maps. For my street the WB have the drains maps that clearly show which properties are common, and which are not.

2. Go the the local council records office to look in the listed building files. You'd be surprised what you can find in there.

regards, dspp

[fisher]

I have a neighbour whose main drain comes into my garden and connects with mine. It does not come into or under my house - but I'm not sure this matters. The previous reply mentioning the 2011 legislation is correct that the drain became the water board's responsibility in 2011. They are responsible for it from the point it enters my garden. I had this confirmed by Yorkshire water recently.

I am not a lawyer but I would think that any onus of proof is on your neighbours to prove you have to alter your drainage. I would also chase this up again with Thames water and point out the 2011 legislation to whoever you talk to. Escalate it if you're not happy with what you're told - ask to talk to a supervisor.

Maybe consider talking to a different solicitor?

[staffordian]

Are the neighbours seriously suggesting that without their knowledge or permission, you have dug up their garden and rerouted a pipe?

I am not a lawyer, but surely if they are claiming this, the onus is on them to prove your guilt, on the balance of probabilities, rather than for you to have to prove your innocence?

And despite the loss of deeds, is there nothing in what you have which refers to this? Isn't there usually some standard wording which covers this sort of thing, such as the passage of rainwater through joint guttering as well as sewerage and drainage?

But as others have said, from the point where the two properties pipes meet, the sewage pipes should be the responsiblitiy of the water company, so a chat with them might be useful.

Edit just read the post above which covers similar points, but I'll leave mine for extra emphasis

[pochisoldi]

The way I see it, you have a neighbour who wants a pipe moved for their own benefit.

The pipe has probably been there for years, and you have an easement by prescription.
What's not clear is where the burden of proof lies - do you have to prove that the easement exists, or do they have to prove that it doesn't.
The way I see it, such an arrangement is likely to have been present for a number of years.
For example if this is a cast iron pipe which goes into the ground, then it's unlikely that such a pipe would have been installed in the last 30 years.
Similarly, if the pipe leads into an inspection chamber, and the lid is an old design, this points towards the pipe having existed in it's current state since at least when the design was no longer available - for example if it goes into a manhole cover which says "Needham, Stockport", I can tell you that Needhams shutdown when I was a kid in the late 1970s...

Personally I would agree to let them move the pipe, conditional on
(1) They acknowledge that you have an easement for the pipe
(2) them giving you an undertaking to pay for all the work and making good to your property afterwards.
(3) Any relocation of the pipe to be carried out within 3 years of the judgement

Then sit back and enjoy knowing that you've been reasonable, and they've won a pyrrhic or hollow victory which will cost them money to see it through.

[spigot]

Thank you. Unfortunately the ariel photos won't help as the drain is underground.
The two houses are attached and the drain goes straight from my house into theirs and out to the street. Thames Water have said it would be trespassing on their property without their permission to be there and I just can't seem to prove that the pipe was there before them!

They don't want to build etc over it. It's too deep down to even impact them. Purely just troubling me...

How Thames can say the drain is a trespass without seeing the deeds mystifies me.

As Pochisoldi said the material of your soil pipe, (that's the large diameter pipe usually on the outside of the house is cast iron, not plastic this would indicate pre 1970 at least. The latest the drain would have been installed in all probability would have been the building was converted to two separate dwellings.

AFAIK in a civil case the balance of probability is all that is required, not absolute proof. If you can determine when your dwelling was first sold as a separate dwelling or that the plans for the conversion were approved by the local planning authority. Either piece of information should hopefully be sufficient. This is so obvious I can't help thinking they are attempting to just harass you.
IANAL
Good luck

[Rivkah]

Thank you all so much.

I've now spoken to Thames Water and they have said I need to ask the council whether the drain is public or private. I feel I need to chase them about this, surely they should know! But they can't see our property connected on their map. And they have said the council also have the map of connected pipes. So I'm requesting all of this from the council and the listed building file. Hope they all come quickly.

Waiting to hear back from our solicitor to see if the planning permission document is enough for the case.

I've looked through my doorbell footage and have lots of videos of the neighbour peering into my windows, exiting my garden gate, reversing onto my drive, and also taking photos of my house. It makes me feel very unsafe.

[staffordian]

It does really sound as though the sewer pipe issue is a symptom of a larger issue rather than being the key problem.

Has this potential harassment been raised with your solicitor?

As you are no doubt aware, this sort of thing can open a can of worms, but if cannot face the thought of giving up and moving elsewhere before things get to the point where they get really ugly, you may have no option but to raise it.

[pochisoldi]

I've looked through my doorbell footage and have lots of videos of the neighbour peering into my windows, exiting my garden gate, reversing onto my drive, and also taking photos of my house. It makes me feel very unsafe.

Have you spoken to them about this? Do they know that they are "pursuing a course of conduct which amounts to harassment to another " S1(1)(a), or "
pursuing a course of conduct which they know which he knows or ought to know amounts to harassment of the other." S1(1)(b) Prevention of Harassment Act 1997.

You should also bring this behaviour to the attention of the court, as evidence that the "move your pipe" action is borne from an intent to harass and intimidate, rather than the more reasonable intents of "abating or preventing nuisance/damage" or "necessity" (It needs to be moved in order to permit some other legitimate activity).

[pochisoldi]

It does really sound as though the sewer pipe issue is a symptom of a larger issue rather than being the key problem.

Has this potential harassment been raised with your solicitor?

As you are no doubt aware, this sort of thing can open a can of worms, but if cannot face the thouht of giving up and moving elsewhere before things get to the point where they get really ugly, you may have no option but to raise it.

This has me thinking that their legal action is an abuse of process.

If they have lived there for 19 years, why haven't they taken action in respect of trespass before?
Surely by not taking action they have acquiesced/accepted the trespass.
If this is the case then they may be prevented from taking action against you under the principle of estoppel.

Might be worth speaking to your solicitor again, and mentioning "proprietary estoppel" (google pointed me to https://www.inbrief.co.uk/land-law/prop ... -estoppel/ )

You may want to ask your solicitor "Do you have any experience of dealing with easement disputes?", and if the answer is "no" or evasive, ask for a recommendation and take your problem to someone who does.
You don't want to be taking advice from a solicitor who gets five gold stars for Family law and conveyancing, but only gets the beginners badge for land disputes.

PochiSoldi
(IANAL/"I am not a lawyer" disclaimer applies to this and all other posts in this neck of the woods)

[stewamax]

As JonE and others have pointed out, the pipework under the neighbouring property that carries your effluent is almost certainly now the responsibility of Thames Water and neither you nor your neighbour should be interfering with it

Specifically:
- the private drain that runs under your property is yours
- the continuation of this drain that runs under the neighbour's property (to the point where it joins the neighbour's private drain) is a lateral drain and is now the responsibility of Thames Water
- the drain from the point where the lateral drain joins the neighbour's private drain is a private sewer and is also now also the responsibility of Thames Water

Whether or not an easement (in your case the right to use a drain under your neighbour's land) existed in your deeds may be irrelevant since any easement should now have transferred to Thames Water even though you have the benefit of using the drain. The lawyers in this thread can perhaps clarify, but a utility company in such a case is generally the easement holder and you are merely the easement beneficiary.

Thames Water don't need to trace the run of the drain: you just need to flush some harmless (approved!) dye that appears in the public sewer where is exits from your neighbour's land; their only quibble might then be that you and your neighbour have separate outflows to the public sewer and yours just happens to run under the neighbouring land, but I would be surprised if they bothered.

Your neighbour may wish to have a 'discussion' with Thames Water's legal people...

[spigot]

So my neighbours have been bullying me for over a year. Things are now getting serious as they've applied to court to ask me to move my waste pipe. My solicitor originally said there was no trespass but is now saying I don't have reasonable prospects for success unless I provide evidence on when the pipe was installed

You say Rivkah that your neighbours have been there approximately 19 years and they have been bullying you for over a year. How long have you lived there please? If the bullying did not start shortly after you moved in did you have a reasonable relationship beforehand?
Have you had any communication from a court, their solicitor, or have you only your neighbours word they have applied to a court?

Has there been any problems with the drains to either of your properties for which they could, rightly or wrongly blame you? or any other kind of event that would bring the drains to their attention? Trying to get you to pay for rerouteing your drains which would be very expensive and are almost certainly perfectly legal would be classed as bullying a single mother. Is there any other behaviour that you consider bullying, (excluding what you have from CCTV)?

I've looked through my doorbell footage and have lots of videos of the neighbour peering into my windows, exiting my garden gate, reversing onto my drive, and also taking photos of my house. It makes me feel very unsafe.

When you have your neighbour on video peering into your windows have they rang the doorbell first? have you been at home and seen them? Have they had a legitimate reason for coming onto your property, eg. taken a parcel in for you or just wanting to talk with you? Using your drive for reversing may be a bit cheeky but would not count as bullying or harassment.

Sorry for all the questions Rivkah but as you answer them it will probably help you to decide whether or not you should be contacting the police about your neighbour's behaviour rather than worrying about your communal drain. No doubt others will air their views also.