Moving dead bodies

[didds]

Its come clear to me recently that rather than coiughing 3-4K on a funeral directors orgainsed funeral., on eoption is to donate the entire body to medical science.

When I last investigated this (1.5 years ago maybe?) , it seemed that aside from the 2 x Drs certs @ circa £100 each, and maybe the issue surrounding a dead body not getting all puffy and manky while that occurs, all one needs to do then is transport the dead body to a suitable medical scool who will basically take the body off your hands, no charge. (ISATR something about wrapped in a sheet delivered on a pallet)

Now - there would be some other paperwork involved I am sure with the medical school but...

My wife is convinced that you can't drive around with a dead body in a car/van (even with the death certificates and presumably some letter of arrangement with the aforementioned medical school). She insists you musty have to have " a licence". Frankly - I don't see why. You've got the death cert, proof of delivery to a medical school for medical science purposes. End of.

However... does anybody know the actual truth here? I'm talking England and Wales if that makes a difference

cheers!
didds

PS yes, I am considering this for myself at least.

[Dod101]

I cannot see why one would not be allowed to drive around with a dead body in the back. I cannot vouch for that as a fact. Not something I fancy doing myself but as a matter of fact, a very elderly friend of mine died a couple of weeks ago and left his body for medical science. The University concerned, once it had satisfied itself that all the paperwork was in order, came along and collected it, the same day that he died if I understood correctly. The least they could do I would have thought. Anyway if the death occurs in hospital, the body will be moved pronto to the mortuary to await collection by someone.

Apparently once the Uni are finished with it, the remains are returned to the relatives and they can then have a funeral if they like.

Dod

[JohnB]

https://www.hta.gov.uk/faqs/body-donation

One thing to watch is its done by area, if you move away, then the institution might ask for the extra transport costs. And if they don't want you, you have to arrange funeral directors.

BTW I paid £1370 in London 7 years ago for Dad's minimalist cremation, including Doctors fees. There was no funeral, no lying-in or embalming, but I got the ashes, which are under a slab in the back garden, and I say hello as I pass. Funeral directors have lots of fees you can opt out of if you ask.

My donation to science form is years old, I must do another one in case they've lost it.

[Lootman]

I cannot see why one would not be allowed to drive around with a dead body in the back.

A hospital will not release a body to an individual - only to a funeral director with the correct documentation.

Of course, if your loved one dies at home then you have control, and you could indeed cart the body to your vehicle and drive it around. Back when I was in charge of deaths for a University teaching hospital in London I did indeed have a woman who drove in with her dead husband in the boot, demanding a second post-mortem because she did not like the results of the first one.'

It's not very healthy to drive around with dead bodies, especially in the summer.

[redsturgeon]

My friend did a diy funeral for his uncle who had no other relatives apart from him and his brother. They bought a body bag, hired a transit and dleivered him to the cemetery where they had paid a grave digger to dig his grave. They popped him in the hole and that was that.

John

[JonE]

... dleivered him to the cemetery where they had paid a grave digger to dig his grave. They popped him in the hole and that was that.

Not quite. It seems your friend didn't mention all the details such as gaining the licence which granted the time-limited right of burial in the specific plot - though perhaps his uncle had the foresight to acquire that himself (and even mention it in his Will so his nephews could administer and even renew it in future).

Cheers!

[stewamax]

A hospital will not release a body to an individual - only to a funeral director with the correct documentation.

Interesting, especially as Funeral Directors are not licensed and the occupation is not regulated.
I wonder what a hospital's excuse would be if I - as provable next of kin and sole executor of the deceased's Will - turned up with a Registrar's 'green form' and coffin (you can buy them, in spite of what excuses the the trade will trot out) or body bag?
And I know of no other legal impediment to my transporting a body or even burying it in my back garden as long as public health (e.g. polluting water-courses) isn't compromised. [It will, of course., make my house harder to sell...]

[Lootman]

A hospital will not release a body to an individual - only to a funeral director with the correct documentation.

Interesting, especially as Funeral Directors are not licensed and the occupation is not regulated.

I wonder what a hospital's excuse would be if I - as provable next of kin and sole executor of the deceased's Will - turned up with a Registrar's 'green form' and coffin (you can buy them, in spite of what excuses the the trade will trot out) or body bag?

And I know of no other legal impediment to my transporting a body or even burying it in my back garden as long as public health (e.g. polluting water-courses) isn't compromised. [It will, of course., make my house harder to sell...]

In my time in that job no corpse left the hospital without my signature. The only people who ever claimed a body, apart from FD's, were cases where there was going to be an external post-mortem, so either another hospital or the Coroner.

I would do the meetings with families and NOK's. I would release any personal effects (unless I had reason to believe there was a dispute over who was entitled to them, and that happens) including jewellery and the removal of gold teeth. I would comply with any special requests such as religious requirements or a request to see the body. I would often give advice on which FD to use if they didn't have one; I was on first-name terms with all the FD's in London.

I never had an individual ask for a body and I would have refused and probably told them to have a solicitor contact me. If that had happened I would then have contacted the hospital's solicitor or the Crown Commissioners, which was the standard practice in any dispute over a body or its effects.

But it must be possible because the woman I mentioned earlier somehow got her dead husband out of Addenbrooke's and drove it down from Cambridge in the back of her estate car.

This was all a long time ago and I don't know what the rules are now, except that I can only imagine the rules have become stricter. The issue is not so much you quickly burying the body to the required depth. It's rather what happens to the body before then. And I would not want that on my head.

[stewamax]

I never had an individual ask for a body and I would have refused and probably told them to have a solicitor contact me. If that had happened I would then have contacted the hospital's solicitor or the Crown Commissioners, which was the standard practice in any dispute over a body or its effects.

If I come equipped with:
- the registrar's green form
- a Will showing me as sole executor
- proof of my identity
on what basis - apart from 'standard practice' - are you refusing to release the body to me?

[Arborbridge]

I never had an individual ask for a body and I would have refused and probably told them to have a solicitor contact me. If that had happened I would then have contacted the hospital's solicitor or the Crown Commissioners, which was the standard practice in any dispute over a body or its effects.

If I come equipped with:
- the registrar's green form
- a Will showing me as sole executor
- proof of my identity
on what basis - apart from 'standard practice' - are you refusing to release the body to me?

Lootman will answer for himself, but in this position, I would say this is sufficient irregular as to require me to refer "upwards" and at least to the hospital's solicitor.

But I know nothing - just musing. I'll be interested to see the professioonal reply from Lootman.

[Lootman]

I never had an individual ask for a body and I would have refused and probably told them to have a solicitor contact me. If that had happened I would then have contacted the hospital's solicitor or the Crown Commissioners, which was the standard practice in any dispute over a body or its effects.

If I come equipped with:
- the registrar's green form
- a Will showing me as sole executor
- proof of my identity
on what basis - apart from 'standard practice' - are you refusing to release the body to me?

How would I know the Will was valid, i.e. that there wasn't a later Will or that it had been renounced?

I once had two next-of-kin's (the separated wife and his new live-in partner) both arguing they had jurisdiction of the body. I wasn't going to release the body to either of them until that dispute was resolved.

[stewamax]

How would I know the Will was valid, i.e. that there wasn't a later Will or that it had been renounced?

In principle at least, you cannot know until probate has been granted.
I myself don't have any wish to take possession of a body, but since this is legal forum I am questioning the right of a hospital to refuse release of a cadaver to someone who legally is entitled to take possession of it (no-one actually owns it). And it is the person who takes possession* who has to arrange disposal; he or she does not need to prove to the hospital that they have made suitable arrangements.

* - apart from any coroner's temporary possession

[scrumpyjack]

It looks like The Natural Death Centre should be able to answer any queries on this

http://www.naturaldeath.org.uk/index.ph ... th-society

[Lootman]

How would I know the Will was valid, i.e. that there wasn't a later Will or that it had been renounced?

In principle at least, you cannot know until probate has been granted.

I myself don't have any wish to take possession of a body, but since this is legal forum I am questioning the right of a hospital to refuse release of a cadaver to someone who legally is entitled to take possession of it (no-one actually owns it). And it is the person who takes possession* who has to arrange disposal; he or she does not need to prove to the hospital that they have made suitable arrangements.

* - apart from any coroner's temporary possession

I'm not sure how relevant the Executor of the Will is anyway. In my year of doing that job I never had anyone claim the body by presenting a Will. And in any event the person organising the funeral is often not the Executor of the estate. The funeral might easily happen before the executor is even made aware of the death.

When a patient is admitted there is a designated next of kin specified. That is the person we ring when a patient dies. That person then comes to the hospital to claim the belongings. We tell them to register the death, appoint a FD and give them the green form, which the FD then presents to me to claim the body. Moreover if there is to be a cremation then a second doctor's signature is required because of the impossibility of a post-mortem, so the NOK has to make funeral decisions quickly and inform the hospital.

I can't tell you exactly what the law is, partly because my experience is a few decades old. I simply followed hospital policy and this never arose. But I have to believe that you'd have to do more than just show up with a Will and a story to be able to collect a body. There are so-called natural burials and cremations but there are almost definitely extra hoops to jump through before you can get the body.

Hospitals in general like to get rid of bodies ASAP because the freezer space in the average hospital isn't great. The Jewish funerals were always the best because they happen very quickly. We just had to accommodate a Rabbi sitting in the freezer room presiding over the body until it was claimed.

[Urbandreamer]

Its come clear to me recently that rather than coiughing 3-4K on a funeral directors orgainsed funeral., on eoption is to donate the entire body to medical science.

When I last investigated this (1.5 years ago maybe?) , it seemed that aside from the 2 x Drs certs @ circa £100 each, and maybe the issue surrounding a dead body not getting all puffy and manky while that occurs, all one needs to do then is transport the dead body to a suitable medical scool who will basically take the body off your hands, no charge. (ISATR something about wrapped in a sheet delivered on a pallet)

Now - there would be some other paperwork involved I am sure with the medical school but...

My wife is convinced that you can't drive around with a dead body in a car/van (even with the death certificates and presumably some letter of arrangement with the aforementioned medical school). She insists you musty have to have " a licence". Frankly - I don't see why. You've got the death cert, proof of delivery to a medical school for medical science purposes. End of.

However... does anybody know the actual truth here? I'm talking England and Wales if that makes a difference

cheers!
didds

PS yes, I am considering this for myself at least.

I was going to trim your text, but there are a too many concepts to do so.

1'st, Sorry you Are probably going to have to arrange disposal of the remains after the medical school is done. One of my relatives went this route and apparently organised everything herself, before she died.
2'ed I believe that your wife and others are simply putting problems in the way because they object to dead bodies either upseting them or others.

Jeremy Bentham has appocraphly been taken out drinking by students of UCL. He attends council meetings, though seldom votes. His head was kidnapped by students of a rival university (apparently). In case you hadn't guessed he's dead. If there is a afterlife, I'm quite sure that he is very happy.

Here is a link to him attending a council meeting.
https://londonist.com/2013/08/long-dead ... il-meeting

[stewamax]

Vide my earlier posts, I forgot to mention that it is an offence under common law for a hospital to refuse to deliver a body to executors for disposal if a Registrar's certificate is produced and the coroner has not intervened. The maximum penalty is life imprisonment and/or an uncapped fine.
So OP would be within his/her rights to turn up with a van and demand the body. Bodies must be 'decently covered' but there is no other restriction.

And Jeremy Bentham's continued exposure at UCL does raise the question of whether UCL is preventing disposal - which is also an offence, although what remains is the skeleton except the head (which is wax). More generally, for how many years after death does keeping a body or skeleton cease to be an offence but become legal? There are of course special exemptions for medical schools; for example the skeleton of 'Elephant Man' Joseph Merrick is kept at Bart's medical school but, unlike that of Bentham, is not on public display.

[gryffron]

Whatever Lootman's hospital policy, The law seems to be very clear that ONLY the executors have any legal rights to a dead body.

Undertakers, who interestingly are completely unregulated (I never knew that) are only agents of the executors, and have no legal rights whatsoever. Neither do next-of-kin, who apparently only have legal rights when you're still alive.

Gryff

[Lootman]

Vide my earlier posts, I forgot to mention that it is an offence under common law for a hospital to refuse to deliver a body to executors for disposal if a Registrar's certificate is produced and the coroner has not intervened. The maximum penalty is life imprisonment and/or an uncapped fine.

So OP would be within his/her rights to turn up with a van and demand the body. Bodies must be 'decently covered' but there is no other restriction.

You seem strangely obsessed with this idea of your corpse rights, given that it wasn't even your original question. Reasonable people might wonder why.

Yes, maybe if you appoint representatives and make enough effort and fuss, then you might get away with it by grinding down the hospital officials. Evidently the nutjob lady I referred to earlier did exactly that. But why on earth would you want to? Any decent funeral directors would take care of all your funereal wishes and handle all this for you. Are you trying to save five grand by dumping your gran in a ditch?

Whatever Lootman's hospital policy, The law seems to be very clear that ONLY the executors have any legal rights to a dead body.

Undertakers, who interestingly are completely unregulated (I never knew that) are only agents of the executors, and have no legal rights whatsoever. Neither do next-of-kin, who apparently only have legal rights when you're still alive.

As a technicality that may be true but, in reality, it just doesn't work that way. Executors are often only invoked after the funeral. They handle the estate but not the body.

[88V8]

If one can be cryogenically frozen I don't see why one should not be stuffed.
What pose did you envisage?

V8

[gryffron]

This is turning into quite an interesting discussion.
So who appoints Funeral Directors? Who pays for them?
If FDs take and cremate the body before the executors have probate, which must usually be the case as Lootman says, then how can they be sure...
a) they have the legal right to do so?
b) they will be paid by the estate?

Gryff