Advice on empty property occupancy by relative

[stewamax]

I have no special knowledge but just some experience of families and relationships and how fraught they can get.

They definitely can! Many years ago I had a painful experience of a very similar situation. The repercussions are still there.

[didds]

One thought - suggest to the sister that she becomes PoA and you "resign" as such. Then any legal aspects pass to her.

Though of course presumably that PoA position swap needs to have the agreement of everybody esle so it maybe its no better a solutuion !

didds

[PinkDalek]

One thought - suggest to the sister that she becomes PoA and you "resign" as such. Then any legal aspects pass to her.

We don't know if the "full power of attorney" per the OP is a registered Lasting Power of Attorney nor the Mother's mental capacity (she has dementia) but, if an LPA, a look here https://www.gov.uk/power-of-attorney/change-your-lasting-power-of-attorney would be an idea.

Extract only and it is only a brief overview:

Change your lasting power of attorney

You can ask the Office of the Public Guardian (OPG) to change your lasting power of attorney (LPA) if it’s been registered and you still have mental capacity to make decisions. ...

[Clitheroekid]

I would tend to agree with the other posters who have said that allowing your nephew to live there is potentially opening a can of worms. However, I can also understand your wish not to appear to be acting unreasonably.

On the face of it, if you were to allow your nephew to live there rent-free it would, under English (and, I think, Scottish) law, amount to a `licence'. This confers virtually no legal rights on the licensee. However, if he were to pay the outgoings, thereby relieving your mother of expenditure, it could be seen as a form of rent, so that a tenancy was inadvertently created.

It seems to me that the best solution for all concerned would be to put the house on the market immediately. I can see no benefit to anyone by delaying doing so, and it would also provide a very simple justification (though I can't see that any is needed) for refusing to allow the nephew into occupation.

[stockton]

Two points.

In Scotland there are specific provisions for house occupation at very low concessionary rentals. You could research exactly what those provisions are.

It also sounds as if the house or proceeds derived therefrom may be needed to pay care home fees to the local authority. In such circumstances there may be significant advantages to having the house occupied by a relative, in that current use is the only value which may be left to the family - the capital already being required for your mothers care.
Having the house occupied may also prevent the local authority forcing sale of the house.
You need to investigate very carefully the rules about charging for care homes.

[llynaj]

One thought - suggest to the sister that she becomes PoA and you "resign" as such. Then any legal aspects pass to her.

She lives 400 miles away. There are weekly decisions to be made and it was not my Mothers wish for her to have P.O.A

We don't know if the "full power of attorney" per the OP is a registered Lasting Power of Attorney nor the Mother's mental capacity (she has dementia) but, if an LPA, a look here https://www.gov.uk/power-of-attorney/change-your-lasting-power-of-attorney would be an idea.

It is a registered Lasting Power of Attorney.
Extract only and it is only a brief overview:

Change your lasting power of attorney

You can ask the Office of the Public Guardian (OPG) to change your lasting power of attorney (LPA) if it’s been registered and you still have mental capacity to make decisions. ...

She no longer has required mental capacity to agree to change of P.O.A.

[llynaj]

Two points.

In Scotland there are specific provisions for house occupation at very low concessionary rentals. You could research exactly what those provisions are.

It also sounds as if the house or proceeds derived therefrom may be needed to pay care home fees to the local authority. In such circumstances there may be significant advantages to having the house occupied by a relative, in that current use is the only value which may be left to the family - the capital already being required for your mothers care.
Having the house occupied may also prevent the local authority forcing sale of the house.
You need to investigate very carefully the rules about charging for care homes.[/quo

te]
House proceeds are not required to pay care fees for at least three years. The house would have to have been occupied by a close relative before the need for care arose.

[sg31]

When my mother went into care I got involved in the 'house' aspect. From memory the person living in the house must be

A partner or former partner.

A child of the person in care, (I think this related to a youngster rather than an adult).

A relative over 60. I think they had to have been living in the property to look after the person in care and were excluded if they had their own property.

There was also provision for an extranged or divorced partner to live in the house.

This was all based in England not Scotland so it may differ. I also found that the rules were interpreted differently by different local authorities and it was a real fight to get them to obey the law of the land.

The case in question doesn't fit any of the above.

My own advice as someone who has been through this process would be to sell the house. In our case my sister was over 60 and had lived in the house for a couple of years to look after the parent in question.

These family situations can turn nasty very quickly where money and property is concerned. Good luck in what is always a difficult time.

[swill453]

When my mother went into care I got involved in the 'house' aspect. From memory the person living in the house must be

A partner or former partner.

A child of the person in care, (I think this related to a youngster rather than an adult).

A relative over 60. I think they had to have been living in the property to look after the person in care and were excluded if they had their own property.

There was also provision for an extranged or divorced partner to live in the house.

I think you're talking about a situation where the local authority is providing the care or paying towards the care home fees. This isn't the case here, so no external agency has any right to say who "must be" living in the house.

Scott.

[sg31]

My apologies for misunderstanding the last few posts.

[stockton]

House proceeds are not required to pay care fees for at least three years.

And your mothers life expectancy appears to exceed three years.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... 2019-06-07

I am rather puzzled at the enthusiasm for converting a useful house into what seems to be useless cash.
Would the wise solution be to rent the house to the grandson at the maximum rate permited for concessionary rentals which provide no security of tenure ?

[Tortoise1000]

llynaj, consult your mother's solicitor and take his advice. Or a solicitor with experience in this area. This is an emotional minefield, and it will only get worse, I am sorry to say, when your mum dies. Being an attorney and an executor is a thankless task as far the rest of the family are concerned, nothing but responsibility and grief. I'd say you should either sell the house or let it to strangers on a commercial basis , whichever is more to her advantage, but the solicitor will know best what to do. You know the old saying: 'Where there's a will there's a row', and POA is the same. I have rarely heard of an instance where things weren't at the least rather tense amongst the family. Get the solicitor's opinion, and use it as your shield.

You might also like to consult Age UK
https://www.ageuk.org.uk/services/age-uk-advice-line/

T

[didds]

I am rather puzzled at the enthusiasm for converting a useful house into what seems to be useless cash.
Would the wise solution be to rent the house to the grandson at the maximum rate permited for concessionary rentals which provide no security of tenure ?

I'd gotten the impression that sale was to make the problem non existent - if there is no house there can be no clash of interests etc. The problem goes away.

The grandson meanwhile clearly doesnt want to pay rent as he wants the ability to live somewhere while saving for a backpacking trip etc - renting wont help him acheive that. (from the OP)

cheers

didds

[llynaj]

House proceeds are not required to pay care fees for at least three years.

And your mothers life expectancy appears to exceed three years.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... 2019-06-07

The life expectancy may of course be reduced by health problems. My Mother has a heart condition and Alzheimer's disease (the most common cause of dementia).
https://www.healthline.com/health/alzhe ... expectancy

The reality is that no one knows how long they are going to live.

Best wishes

[stockton]

I'd gotten the impression that sale was to make the problem non existent - if there is no house there can be no clash of interests etc. The problem goes away.
The grandson meanwhile clearly doesnt want to pay rent as he wants the ability to live somewhere while saving for a backpacking trip etc - renting wont help him acheive that. (from the OP)
cheers
didds

It is not a solution which impresses me and may well not impress the sisters. It seems to be very indicative of a modern risk-averse culture.

And you appear to have missed the point of the "maximum" rent - it is a very small amount.

[GoSeigen]

I'd gotten the impression that sale was to make the problem non existent - if there is no house there can be no clash of interests etc. The problem goes away.
The grandson meanwhile clearly doesnt want to pay rent as he wants the ability to live somewhere while saving for a backpacking trip etc - renting wont help him acheive that. (from the OP)
cheers
didds

It is not a solution which impresses me and may well not impress the sisters. It seems to be very indicative of a modern risk-averse culture.

And you appear to have missed the point of the "maximum" rent - it is a very small amount.

ISTM the problem is the contradiction in what Stockton has been saying: on the one hand a house is useful but money useless; on the other, the "useful" house cannot generate a rent ("it is a very small amount" in his words). Presumably a house is useful either because you can live in it, or you can let it out in return for a significant rent (to compensate fully for being unable to occupy it).

If the house is let out for a "very small amount" of rent surely it is more useless than the cash?


GS

[didds]

I'd gotten the impression that sale was to make the problem non existent - if there is no house there can be no clash of interests etc. The problem goes away.
The grandson meanwhile clearly doesnt want to pay rent as he wants the ability to live somewhere while saving for a backpacking trip etc - renting wont help him acheive that. (from the OP)
cheers
didds

It is not a solution which impresses me and may well not impress the sisters. It seems to be very indicative of a modern risk-averse culture.

And you appear to have missed the point of the "maximum" rent - it is a very small amount.

The OP stated the guy wanted to pay no rent. there is no indication of any level that he would pay so why conject that he may?

as for risk averse. this isnt being risk averse - its a solution to a split camp, one half of which potentially has no obligations in any legal manner top sort out anything that "goes wrong" while still continuing to apply emotional blackmail.

Other options as Ive said before is the sisters take on the tasks of the brother.

didds