Tenants in common or joint tenants ?

[Amybeth]

I’ve been looking on land registry but not really sure what it all means. Am I right in thinking if two names appear on the land registry information about the property that it’s owned as joint tenants? The wording that I can see is ‘title absolute’ but nothing that actually states joint tenants - or tenants in common?

[Mike4]

I’ve been looking on land registry but not really sure what it all means. Am I right in thinking if two names appear on the land registry information about the property that it’s owned as joint tenants? The wording that I can see is ‘title absolute’ but nothing that actually states joint tenants - or tenants in common?

This is just a guess but in the absence of statements defining the proportion of the property each name owns, I'd say yes this must mean joint tenants.

Someone more knowledgeable will be along shortly to say I'm wrong, I expect...

[Amybeth]

Thank you Mike. Yes, I think you are right. There is no other clauses apart from the registered owners names, and the property’s value.

[AJC5001]

I’ve been looking on land registry but not really sure what it all means. Am I right in thinking if two names appear on the land registry information about the property that it’s owned as joint tenants? The wording that I can see is ‘title absolute’ but nothing that actually states joint tenants - or tenants in common?

Does this help?http://www.beneficentlaw.co.uk/uploads/1/0/7/5/10755464/sample_title_register.pdf

(NB only applies to Land Registry i.e. England and Wales. Scotland is different, as is N. Ireland.

Adrian

[Amybeth]

Yes Adrian. That’s a really helpful link, thank you. The writing in red doesn’t appear on the land registry document that I have downloaded. I just need to hope that my step mother carries out my father’s wishes! They are joint owners of two properties and his will has left one of them to me. I am going to expect nothing as it will be easier to cope with if she decides to sell both and move away!

[Clitheroekid]

Just to confirm that the wording in red on the linked sample document is known as a Form A Restriction. If it's not there then the presumption is that the property is owned as joint tenants.

They are joint owners of two properties and his will has left one of them to me.

If, as appears to be the case, the property in question was owned as joint tenants then your father's share in the property doesn't form part of his estate. The nature of joint tenancy is that the surviving joint tenant automatically becomes the sole owner of the property on the death of the other.

Consequently, if the property was owned as joint tenants your stepmother is now the sole owner.

However, registration of the Form A Restriction isn't essential to prove a tenancy in common. There have been cases where registration was overlooked, but because of other evidence the joint tenancy was still held to have been severed.

If there's any doubt it would be sensible to obtain proper legal advice.

[Amybeth]

Thank you for your reply. I’m very sure they are joint owners of two properties and that one property was going to be left to me and one left to my brother. However, if dad passes before her, then I’m expecting for both properties to be sold and for her to move away as she resents living where she is now. So, I will mentally prepare myself for that outcome. Best wishes

[Lootman]

However, registration of the Form A Restriction isn't essential to prove a tenancy in common. There have been cases where registration was overlooked, but because of other evidence the joint tenancy was still held to have been severed.

Yes, I once severed a TIC merely by writing a letter to the other tenant. It can be done unilaterally and does not require the other tenant to agree.

Nothing was filed with the Registry. There is a risk with not filing it since, if I had died first, the other tenant could have pretended that they had not received the letter and/or destroyed it. But a copy of the letter was lodged with the physical deeds (this was 20 years ago before dematerialiation) at my solicitor's office, so I think that would have been caught.

I later bought out the other tenant and then sold the property without a problem.

[Clitheroekid]

Thank you for your reply. I’m very sure they are joint owners of two properties and that one property was going to be left to me and one left to my brother. However, if dad passes before her, then I’m expecting for both properties to be sold and for her to move away as she resents living where she is now. So, I will mentally prepare myself for that outcome. Best wishes

My apologies, I thought that your father had already died, I had no wish to send him on his way prematurely!

It would seem wrong that if your father wanted you and your brother to inherit the properties that they should both pass to your stepmother.

If he wants to leave something to your stepmother and something to each of you he could just sever the joint tenancies on both properties and then leave his half share in one to you and his half share in the other to your brother. It's very simple to do, and would seem a much fairer solution.

He would, of course, need to make a new Will, but if he's married your stepmother since making the Will that you mentioned that Will would no longer be valid anyway.

[Amybeth]

Thank you for both of your replies. They were really interesting and useful. Yes,dad hasn’t passed away - thank goodness. My step mum- ( they aren’t married but both have mirror wills and are both named on both properties) has confided me about how she wishes she could move away, things aren’t great with dad and so on. I don’t want to discuss this with dad as they are both as bad as each other with regards to the relationship. As for approaching dad about the properties and perhaps changing to TIC, I’m someone who really doesn’t want to have that conversation with him. Financially I am not stable but from the horror stories I’ve read regarding inheritance passing onto step parents due to owning properties as joint tenants- I’ve pretty much given up already. One property was inherited by my dad and has nothing to do with my step mum, the other property has been lived for over 20 years so she has paid into it etc. I was just curious about the tenancy and I’m definitely preparing myself to let it all go.

[Clitheroekid]

My step mum- ( they aren’t married but both have mirror wills and are both named on both properties) has confided me about how she wishes she could move away, things aren’t great with dad and so on.

One property was inherited by my dad and has nothing to do with my step mum, the other property has been lived for over 20 years so she has paid into it etc.

As they aren't married he should perhaps give some thought to Inheritance Tax, as she won't benefit from the spouse exemption, and she won't benefit from the additional residence exemption either. She will just get the basic £325k nil rate band, so depending on the value of the estate she could be hit with a hefty tax bill.

Inheritance Tax can be avoided by giving property away while alive and then surviving 7 years. I don't know what assets your dad has as well as the properties, but assuming that the properties comprise the majority of his estate then it seems grossly unfair - especially if she's thinking of leaving him - that she should inherit most of his estate at the expense of his children.

As she's had nothing to do with the inherited property one solution would be for them to transfer that property to yourself and your brother now. As well as being objectively fairer, if your dad then survives another 7 years (which I sincerely hope he does!) the value of his share in that property is taken out of his estate, thereby potentially reducing the Inheritance Tax liability.

If the stepmother is likely to end up paying 40% tax on the value of his share in the property she might be quite amenable to the suggestion.

One word of caution though - assuming the inherited property isn't the one they're living in then gifting it to you and your brother could result in a bill for Capital Gains Tax, so as I said earlier he would need to take professional advice before making any final decisions.

[Amybeth]

Goodness me, so much to consider. I wonder if they are aware of all of this but again, in a way, it’s easier for me to think that it’s none of my business as ultimately they need to sort things out themselves. You would think that owning two properties ( I’ve no idea about pensions and so on) would have ensured that the wills were executed in a way that mean they thought about every possibility and avenue.

[didds]

Goodness me, so much to consider. I wonder if they are aware of all of this but again, in a way, it’s easier for me to think that it’s none of my business as ultimately they need to sort things out themselves. You would think that owning two properties ( I’ve no idea about pensions and so on) would have ensured that the wills were executed in a way that mean they thought about every possibility and avenue.

my limited expereince 9so is probably worthless) is that very much deopends on

* one's attitude to inheritance
* one's attitudes to wills
* the attitude of the solicitor/whoever that you get to draw the wills up.

My mum and dad took the dirt cheap will writing service offered by their union. dad passed. Then it was realsied that as it was a simple spousal tit-for-tat-swap will arrangement when mum diied the estate would be up for IHT (only just etc but nonetheless) under the then current thresholds etc.

cue fluster from mum, huffing and puffing form her, me and brother looking at each other ans shrugging etc... posthoumous will rewrites etc costing 1.5K (mum paid for that as it turned out but anyway)

Then once it was all sorted and bro and I had some in trust inheritance etc...

Mum decides she'll now need a new will. "Oh, Ill go back to the union" she says " they'll do me a will really cheap".

I just pointed out that it was their will service that had just cost her 1.5K to sort out, and that wife and I had just had our wills done at a "proper solcitor thingy" in similar trusts scenarios for our 3 kids and each other etc for half that...

didds

[Amybeth]

Thanks for sharing Didds. I haven’t made a will yet but I don’t think I’d choose a cheap will writing service after hearing what your family have experienced. It’s a strange position to be in, I don’t want my dad to think that I only care about inheritance so that’s why I’m just letting things go- mentally it will be easier too. I decided to check if they owned the properties as joint tenants or tenants in common and I’ve discovered that is joint tenants. I know my step mum despises my father and that’s why I’m letting it all go as she will own both properties if he passes before her- regardless of what his will says. In the new year I’ll get a will drafted up- regardless of not having anything - I have the most important things in the world to consider If I passed away, my young children.

[Amybeth]

Just thought I would add that my brother is my half brother- he is the son of my step mum and my father. So one property for him and one property for me- but - as I said- due to the tensions between them both- I am expecting to not receive my inheritance as my step mum will favour her son and also move away- so sell up.

[mark88man]

I worry that you are giving up on an inheritance that you quite rightfully should expect - most families even where there has been separation and remarriage do not intentionally disenfranchise their children, and if that is the wanted outcome there is usually no doubt about it

I agree that expecting nothing is a more sensible approach than expecting something and being disappointed, however I believe it could become a self fulfilling prophecy, if you do nothing about it!.

I don't think it unreasonable to raise the complexities with your dad, just say you were talking at work, and a colleague had got into a bit of a mess and you just wanted to avoid that. I liked the suggestion where you got half the house that was in the family for years - although the capital gains tax is a real thing

good luck