A question of leaks

[James]

Hello
Not sure if this is best suited here or on the property board, but I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas on a question I have.
I rent out a flat that has another above it. There has been a leak from the upstairs flat into mine, but apparently has been ongoing for a while and has caused damage to the ceiling. But it was only when it affected a light fitting that I was notified of it.
Insurance excesses make insurance a non-starter, but I feel the owner of the upstairs flat has some obligation. They say that they're not responsible as they were not notified when the leak began, therefore couldn't remedy situation until it had got worse?
Does anyone have an idea how to resolve this?
Thanks.

[ReformedCharacter]

Hello
Not sure if this is best suited here or on the property board, but I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas on a question I have.
I rent out a flat that has another above it. There has been a leak from the upstairs flat into mine, but apparently has been ongoing for a while and has caused damage to the ceiling. But it was only when it affected a light fitting that I was notified of it.
Insurance excesses make insurance a non-starter, but I feel the owner of the upstairs flat has some obligation. They say that they're not responsible as they were not notified when the leak began, therefore couldn't remedy situation until it had got worse?
Does anyone have an idea how to resolve this?
Thanks.

IANAL, but -

They say that they're not responsible as they were not notified when the leak began, therefore couldn't remedy situation until it had got worse

Is surely a red herring.

RC

[genou]

They say that they're not responsible as they were not notified when the leak began, therefore couldn't remedy situation until it had got worse

Is surely a red herring.

RC

It is not. Unless they have been negligent, there is unlikely to be any ground for recovery from the upstairs flat. They would obviously be negligent if they did not fix something they had been made aware of. Otherwise depends what was causing the leak, which would normally not be a result of negligence.

[dealtn]

Hello
Not sure if this is best suited here or on the property board, but I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas on a question I have.
I rent out a flat that has another above it. There has been a leak from the upstairs flat into mine, but apparently has been ongoing for a while and has caused damage to the ceiling. But it was only when it affected a light fitting that I was notified of it.
Insurance excesses make insurance a non-starter, but I feel the owner of the upstairs flat has some obligation. They say that they're not responsible as they were not notified when the leak began, therefore couldn't remedy situation until it had got worse?
Does anyone have an idea how to resolve this?
Thanks.

Have you checked your paperwork? What does it say in your lease? What does it say in your insurance?

Your documents are likely to show what a freeholder's and leaseholder's obligation are. Those pieces of paper aren't just there for the solicitors to look at and ask questions about when you buy a property, but contain the detail of the legal arrangements of property ownership too.

[Mike4]

Hello
Not sure if this is best suited here or on the property board, but I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas on a question I have.
I rent out a flat that has another above it. There has been a leak from the upstairs flat into mine, but apparently has been ongoing for a while and has caused damage to the ceiling. But it was only when it affected a light fitting that I was notified of it.
Insurance excesses make insurance a non-starter, but I feel the owner of the upstairs flat has some obligation. They say that they're not responsible as they were not notified when the leak began, therefore couldn't remedy situation until it had got worse?
Does anyone have an idea how to resolve this?
Thanks.

Have you checked your paperwork? What does it say in your lease? What does it say in your insurance?

Your documents are likely to show what a freeholder's and leaseholder's obligation are. Those pieces of paper aren't just there for the solicitors to look at and ask questions about when you buy a property, but contain the detail of the legal arrangements of property ownership too.

I would however, point out that although the content of the OP's lease probably reflects the content of the lease on the flat causing the damage, this cannot be relied upon. More importantly, even if it does, proving what the other lease says is near impossible for the OP, should push come to shove and it ends up in court.

I think this might be why lenders' solicitors insist on "mutual enforceability" clauses in leases they grant mortgages on, but I'm unclear on the point.

[richlist]

The wording in your lease relating to buildings insurance is very important. Often the managing agents/ freeholders who arrange the buildings insurance will accept a higher claims excess in exchange for a lower annual premium. But if your lease says that payment of service charges provides you with buildings insurance but makes no mention of any excess that you should pay then you can expect any excess you pay to be reimbursed by the service charge account. That's how it works for my properties.

Check the wording in your lease.....n insurance claim and the repairs may ultimately cost you nothing.

[Clitheroekid]

The main priority, if it's not already been dealt with, is to establish the cause of the leak and what immediate action is required to stop it. The building may well contain many pipes and appliances, and water can travel a remarkable distance through the structure of the building before emerging in an individual flat.

It's a good idea to look at the buildings insurance policy, as it may cover the cost of tracing the source of the leak. If you have a professional managing agent you should get them involved.

Once you've located the source of the leak the next step is to establish who's responsible for the cost of fixing it and carrying out any necessary repairs. Usually the individual leaseholder is responsible for maintaining pipes and other apparatus exclusively serving their flat even if the pipes etc are not actually within the curtilage of the flat. Any pipes or apparatus (e.g. water storage tanks) serving more than one flat are normally the responsibility of the landlord / management company.

As has been said, you therefore need to examine the wording of your lease, and quite possibly that of your neighbour (though if it's in a block of purpose built flats it's almost certain to be the same as yours).

Questions of negligence and/or nuisance may arise. For example, if the leak had been caused by someone leaving a tap running it would be negligent, and the person would be liable to pay for the damage. But in other cases it may be `just one of those things', and not caused by anyone's negligence.

You and/or your management company should report the leak to the relevant insurers as soon as possible in case a claim needs to be made. Leaks are usually covered by insurance, but, as you mention, there's likely to be an excess payable. However, if the damage is covered by the buildings insurance the excess will either be recoverable from the party that caused the leak or all the leaseholders in the building through the service charge depending on whether or not it was caused by negligence and on the exact wording of the lease.

[pochisoldi]

I have a lease with a clause that places strict liability for uninsured losses caused by leaks/escapes with the "leaker".
Put another way, if it leaked from your flat and it isn't covered by the block buildings insurance, then you pay. (The excess or the whole lot if less).

For an encore, the lease obliges the freeholder to insure for normal risks. There is no obligation to insure with zero excess, and when dealing with leaks, there is no element of the freeholder self insuring.

All leaseholders are warned annually about the policy excess for flooding/water damage, nobody has complained, and the removal of moral hazard ("do what you like cos someone else will pick up the tab") has resulted in more care and fewer claims.

For another trick, for sub-excess amounts of damage, we instructed the managing agent to put "leaker" and "leakee" in direct contact to arrange repairs and reimbursement between themselves, with the MA and freeholder only getting involved if either or both sides took the mickey or failed to play ball. So far it's been hands off...

It's surprising how much a £2500 excess concentrates people's minds!

Pochisoldi (wearing his "leaseholder" and "director of the freehold company" hats)