Water Ingress from Overflow pipe?

[TryingmeBest]

Hello - previously a TMF poster, this is my first post here - Hello All

Please can anyone advise : My elderly mother recently bought an apartment in an older building, Ground Floor Flat have been in touch demanding my Mother pay a repair bill for their Boiler, which they say was damaged by water dripping from the Overflow pipe [exterior] from my Mum's boiler on the 1st Floor, and being drawn into the Flue of their boiler on the wall below. (1) The position of Overflow to my Mum's boiler is original from time building was converted ; it appears their Flue [positioned almost directly beneath Mum's overflow] was sited there subsequently. (2) It is clear from moss growth at the Ground Floor tarmac / edge of building below the overflow, that said Overflow has had an historic leak that must have been left at least a year or two for moss to have accumulated. [Having said that, there is also a rust stain on the wall from the Overflow of Ground Floor flat - so clearly their Overflow drips also.] (3) My mother had not yet even turned her boiler on, when she received a demand from Ground Floor for payment of their recent Boiler repair. Is she liable? If so, is it because she effectively ' inherits ' any problems caused by poor maintenance from previous owners? (4) I am thinking of asking for a copy of Ground Floor's [British Gas] Boiler Engineer's report, to see if the report states the damage is from ingress of water via their Flue, and if so - (5) I am not sure how anyone can vouch that water coming in via their Flue, was water from Mum's Overflow - rather than water from Heaven [rainfall]. Any thoughts, please? I would like to save a trek to Citizens Advice if I can, as work full-time and have other things to sort out for my Mum. Thank you.

[supremetwo]

Is it an overflow or the drain from a condensing boiler?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condensing_boiler

If it's a non-condensing boiler, there should be no overflow from the boiler itself - there can be from an associated expansion or storage tank.

Condensate is very corrosive.

[TryingmeBest]

Hi Supremetwo - I just checked the manufacturers' site - and yes, it is a condensing boiler - - and I know there is no tank connected to it : it operates as if [and probably is ] a multi-point. [Sorry, plumbing is one of my 'no nothing' topics ]

[supremetwo]

Hi Supremetwo - I just checked the manufacturers' site - and yes, it is a condensing boiler - - and I know there is no tank connected to it : it operates as if [and probably is ] a multi-point. [Sorry, plumbing is one of my 'no nothing' topics ]

Could it be an overflow for a toilet cistern?

There is no way that a condensing boiler should be fitted so that its condensate drips down a wall.
Pdf file:
http://www.centralheating.co.uk/system/ ... l_2011.pdf

Regarding the intake for the property below, that should have been fitted with a protective shield to throw water off.

Oh, and condensing boilers are renowned for eating their own guts, irrespective of any extra moisture that might be drawn into an intake.

[TryingmeBest]

Supremetwo - the Overflow pipe could be for a different appliance, but I called out Vaillant Engineer to do a full maintenance overhaul of Mum's boiler - and I think he did say he had replaced the Overflow - which suggests the Overflow pipe must be for the Boiler. Boiler was fitted 9 years' ago [2007 / 8] - the Installs Guidance document you kindly linked for me, is dated 2011, so perhaps they were not so alert to the Installs recommendations in 2007. I will phone and try to speak to a Technical person at Vaillant.

re. your comment on the cover for the Flue below : I have to say, I thought the same thing. Also it does appear that their Flue was positioned under the Overflow to my Mother's flat, and as the Overflow is original to the conversion [there being others of similar style on the same side facade], it does suggest the Flue post-dates the Overflow. Which I would have thought makes it their problem, rather than ours.

Thank you so much for your input. I do not want to try to explain to my Mother that she has to pay someone else's bills as well as her own ; she simply will not understand it.

[jfgw]

Boilers do not have overflow pipes.

What does the pipe look like? If it is copper and pointing back toward the wall, it is the outlet from the pressure-relief valve. This is the water that runs through your radiators and is about as corrosive as rain water.

Julian F. G. W.

[TryingmeBest]

Hi Julian -

The Overflow pipe is the standard, white plastic / uPVC type pipe, about 1 inch max diameter. There is [unfortunately] a trail down the white render masonry outside, from both this overflow and from the one from the Ground Floor - and - sure enough, the trail shows evidence of rust coloured water. So it seems you are correct, that its purpose is to release / vent water from the radiators.

The rule of thumb that I somewhere picked up, is that the purpose of an Overflow pipe is to provide an outlet if a system should require it. If that is so, it does seem a bit harsh for anyone to try suing because an Overflow provided the necessary outlet [Ground Floor are threatening my Mother with a court claim if she does not cough up for their Boiler bill].

[TryingmeBest]

Sorry Julian - just realised you said the Radiators vent would be a copper pipe. I think I am going to have to send a photo to Vaillant, to ask them what the pipe does.

[supremetwo]

Ground Floor are threatening my Mother with a court claim if she does not cough up for their Boiler bill.

They would be hard put to succeed, especially if their make is on one of Mike's blacklists.

If you can find out its make, I am sure he will advise you in the event you need a defence.

http://www.miketheboilerman.com/contact.htm

[Dorn1]

Not sure how long she's been there and how they'd show it were her negligence that "caused" the damage?
Have they previously asked her to fix it?
Boilers are designed to operate with rain falling on the inlet and hence some modest dripping wouldn't be a problem.
Continuous water running down a wall would, but it sounds like their flue isn't sealed properly.
HTH
C

[TryingmeBest]

Supremetwo - I might find out the make, if I ask them does their Engineer's report state Mum's Overflow to be cause of issue with their Boiler - and if it does, ask them to provide a copy so I can take advice. Or I may just go the route of 'Flue should have had a cover'.

I had a look at Mike the Boiler Man's website - he has put an incredible amount of useful information on there for people to access. Even I can grasp some of the rudiments, reading through some of the info, and I have almost no fore-knowledge at all. Thanks so much for the link.

I put Mum's machine onto Vaillant's annual 'Repair and Protect' contract, so if all else fails, I might ask them to come out to take a look. Though I am starting to wonder if that overflow pipe is connected to the boiler at all. ... Ho hum ... End of the day, it's an overflow, and overflows are not illegal - nor invisible. If feller downstairs wants to put his Flue under an overflow, he needs to put a hat on it

[TryingmeBest]

Hi Dorn - thank you for your thoughts. Mum has been in apartment barely a month. At the time I received email saying Ground Floor wanted to send us a bill, my Mum had not even turned the boiler on, as neither of us knew how it worked. But the Overflow [whether it is for Boiler or something else], has plainly been dripping intermittently over an extended period, as moss growth has accumulated where side wall meets the ground - directly below Overflow. [There is also moss growth beneath Ground Floor's overflow, ironically.] Having said that, I have a feeling that when one purchases a property, one 'inherits' liability for any damage caused as a result of defects - even if the defects pre-dated one's purchase. I think the best avenue may be to hold to the fact that an overflow that may intermittently allow water through, is doing its job, rather than being a defect. And that the problem has arisen because their Flue was positioned almost directly beneath the Overflow [Murphy's Law comes to mind], and was not fitted with any form of cover to prevent water ingress from above. It does seem pretty harsh to threaten a woman in her mid-eighties with a court case, when the amount at issue is relatively small [less than £200]. It is just explaining it to her that is going to be tricky - and I know she will be really upset if I tell her someone has written a letter giving a deadline for payment - or - 'off we go to Court'. And no, we had never heard from them before I received the email asking us to stump up £199.00. Neither of us have met them, either. Haven't told my Mum yet. Hoping to sort it out without causing her upset. She hasn't even settled in yet.

Thank you both for your advice - helps so much to hear someone's else take on this type of thing.

[panamagold]

And no, we had never heard from them before I received the email asking us to stump up £199.00.

If, as you say, you or your mother had 'never heard from them before' and your mother has only lived at the apartment 'barely a month' how were they able to obtain your email address to enable them to issue, what would appear to be, their unreasonable demand?

[TryingmeBest]

hi panamagold - their missive was sent to me via email, by one of the 2 directors of the building's management company [ management company is 'in-house' / self managed]. And my initial reply went back the same route - basically asking them why they thought my Mother should pay. If I understood correctly, on his second visit, their British Gas engineer said he thinks the problem with the boiler was caused by intake of water from the overflow - positioned 10 feet or so above their Flue.

[TryingmeBest]

To be clear - my understanding is the British Gas guy came out one day and did not have the part he needed, and came again a day or two later. It is not that this was an 'ongoing' / 'repeated issue' situation : both trips were for the one repair. And they say on his second visit, chap said it was probably caused by water from the overflow. I do not know on what basis he made that statement, as we have not been given anything other than an email asking for money, followed by a typed letter addressed to me, placed in my Mother's mail box in the hall.

[AJC5001]

To be clear - my understanding is the British Gas guy came out one day and did not have the part he needed, and came again a day or two later. It is not that this was an 'ongoing' / 'repeated issue' situation : both trips were for the one repair. And they say on his second visit, chap said it was probably caused by water from the overflow. I do not know on what basis he made that statement, as we have not been given anything other than an email asking for money, followed by a typed letter addressed to me, placed in my Mother's mail box in the hall.

I find it difficult to believe that anything 'probably caused by water from the overflow' would have only happened in a month. If it WAS caused by the overflow, then I would guess it occurred when the previous occupant was there, and if so then the previous occupant should pay/claim on their insurance.

Adrian

[TryingmeBest]

Thanks, Adrian. That was my initial take on it also - especially given the moss growth below the 2 overflows, where the side wall meets the tarmac at ground level, and water trail stains on exterior wall from both Ground and 1st Floor overflows - which suggest the pipes have been letting water by for at least a year. But unfortunately, I think the 'short duration of ownership' route may not assist us, as I think there is a 'rule of thumb' that the purchaser of a property takes on liability for damage caused by defects in the property they have purchased, even if the problem has been historic.

I think what I may try, is to take photos of the position / style of the Flue / overflow arrangement, and get opinion of a couple of Boiler install companies whether the type of Flue the Ground Floor have, should have been fitted with a cover.

[RedSnapper]

If you are certain, or can establish, that your mother's overflow was in place before the flue then I would have thought that would be your best defense. After all, an overflow is likely to at least drip at times, that is it's essential function. If that dripping can damage a boiler through water entering the flue then it is surely bad practice at best to site the flue directly beneath the overflow.

[swill453]

I think there is a 'rule of thumb' that the purchaser of a property takes on liability for damage caused by defects in the property they have purchased, even if the problem has been historic.

Never heard of that before. I'd tell them to take a running jump.

How far back could this "rule of thumb" go? If you think about it, it doesn't make sense.

(Not that I am a lawyer, you understand. Or that laws must make sense.)

Scott.

[didds]

what Scott says ... but then again, one could absolve oneself otherwise from any ongoing issue by just selling (though some obvious caveats spring to mind so maybe not?!)

when did the neighbour first ever discover this? I am wondering if the previous owner was too "tough" for the neighbour to approach so said neighbour has now waited for "tough" owner to move out and "frail old lady" to move in to now raise it. Especially if the flue was placed there later than the overflow and neighbour is hoping their stuff up will be sorted by bullying "frail old lady".

didds