Council Tax Liability

[foundone]

My stepson has been living in an attached Granny Flat for the last two years ever since my previous tenant moved out. When he moved in he was in full time education and so was exempt from council tax as the only occupant. He then dropped out of college and got a job, at which point I reminded him he would be liable for the tax. 12 months has gone by and I've received a letter from the council asking to confirm that he is still the occupier and what is his educational status.

He doesn't make any contribution to the family budget so I don't intend to pay his tax for him, he's 19 now. I'm confident he is ignoring their letters but I am happy to leave him to sort his own mess out as he is a complete idiot. Am I safe ignoring the letter from the council or will this all come back to me somehow like all the other trouble I've had to sort out for him in the past?

[ten0rman]

I see no-one's answered you yet, so here are my thoughts, issued in the hope that someone else may think I'm talking rubbish and thus give you an answer. Please note, I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice.

Ok, you are the landlord. I would imagine that the council has every right to contact you to find out who is living in the annex so that they, the council, can issue an appropriate bill. It also seems to me that regardless of any feelings about stepson, there is no reason at all why you shouldn't tell them, especially as he, not you will be liable for Council Tax, and if he doesn't pay, he will get the Court Summons.

In respect of his educational status, my personal inclination would be to tell the council to ask him themselves, because, in a way, it's nothing to do with you now, and, what's more, could possibly be a breach of Data Protection. After all, you ask the council about the stepson, and that's what you will get, so goose & ganders etc. But, and it's a big but, I remember when my youngest was going to university, and claiming for grants etc, I had to tell the council what my family income was. Furthermore, I was liable to give this information until said child reached the age of 25. Which means that they may possibly be enquiring just to see if you, as stepfather, may be liable in some way if he is still in education. Ok, you have said that he isn't, but does the council know that? So maybe you should tell the council what they want to know, if only to make sure that you are off the hook.

You say that you are not prepared to sort him out, but I wonder what his mother might think? I agree with you, by the way, but I know what my wife would say, and it wouldn't be very pleasant. (Might be because I'm the father to her kids!)

Good luck,

ten0rman

[Lootman]

I've received a letter from the council asking to confirm that he is still the occupier and what is his educational status . . Am I safe ignoring the letter from the council or will this all come back to me somehow like all the other trouble I've had to sort out for him in the past?

OK, you are the landlord. I would imagine that the council has every right to contact you to find out who is living in the annex so that they, the council, can issue an appropriate bill.

In my experience of having flats within the building that I also live in, the Council usually corresponded directly with the tenant, either by writing to them by name, or by sending a letter to "The Occupier" at that address. I don't recall the Council ever writing to me to ask who was living there. Likewise with TV licenses or utilities. And just as well, as i often wasn't there.

What did happen (and this was with respect to the electoral roll, not the council tax) was that the Council sent a chap round to the building, after failing to get responses from the tenant. I answered the front door and, although he tried to get me to give him information, he didn't push the matter when I replied in a minimalist way (name, rank, serial number and a lot of "don't know"s). I took that as a sign that the Council really didn't have any kind of beef with me just because I was the landlord, nor any real leverage to get me to co-operate.

So the Council has the right to ask, but the landlord has the right to not respond fully, based on my personal experience.

Not that I would have been willing to stick my neck out for him, nor any other tenant. And I could have been held personally liable for the council tax on a vacant unit after the allowable six months. But I didn't like the "Big Brother" aspect to sending someone round to the house.

All that said, what do the (two?) biological parents of this kid think? Does one of them live in your household? Or do they both think he is an "idiot" as well?

[ten0rman]

Lootman,

I too have been accosted by a "council employee" chasing electoral roll information. What happened in my case was that my youngest son was about to leave us for pastures new so I delayed filling the annual electoral roll return. A few weeks later, another copy was received, so I delayed again. And then, my son made his move, so I filled in the form, posted it, only to find that two days or so later there was a knock on the door. He explained why, I explained why and I was minded to be bloody-minded as I object strongly to being hazed by these people, especially as it was nowhere near October 15, or whatever the date was. However, the interviewer did explain that he needed the information regardless in order to prove that he had in fact been. Presumably his pay depended on it. And so I relented.

ten0rman

[Lootman]

Lootman,

I too have been accosted by a "council employee" chasing electoral roll information . . However, the interviewer did explain that he needed the information regardless in order to prove that he had in fact been. Presumably his pay depended on it. And so I relented.

It's odd that Councils seem more concerned about the electoral roll than council tax.

Perhaps the funds that central government disburse to councils is predicated on the numbers as shown by the electoral roll? Rather than, say, the last census? Whereas for the council tax they can relax, knowing that they will probably collect eventually, one way or the other?

He was an irritating little shrew as well, which didn't help . . .

[foundone]

Yes, his mother is my wife. She spends all her time shouting at him but when it comes down to it sticks up for him and blames his mates being a bad influence. I basically try to keep out of it but have been dragged into meetings with the headmaster at school, his tutor at college, the police station and even his boss asking why he hasn't turned up for work. It's time he took some responsibility.

[k333]

My stepson has been living in an attached Granny Flat for the last two years ever since my previous tenant moved out. When he moved in he was in full time education and so was exempt from council tax as the only occupant. He then dropped out of college and got a job, at which point I reminded him he would be liable for the tax. 12 months has gone by and I've received a letter from the council asking to confirm that he is still the occupier and what is his educational status.

He doesn't make any contribution to the family budget so I don't intend to pay his tax for him, he's 19 now. I'm confident he is ignoring their letters but I am happy to leave him to sort his own mess out as he is a complete idiot. Am I safe ignoring the letter from the council or will this all come back to me somehow like all the other trouble I've had to sort out for him in the past?

I don't think it's a good idea to be unhelpful and just ignore the letter. You could write back to confirm that he is still the occupier, and that being over 18 now is liable for his own council tax affairs.

- K

[foundone]

You are probably right, it's just that I've been dragged into so many things in the past regarding him knowing he won't listen to a word I say and I won't get backing from his mother, it would be nice to say I don't need to get involved. He has several problems bubbling away which I have warned him about and he's chosen to ignore, with the Council Tax being the least of them.

He's now walked out of his job without telling them as he doesn't want to speak to them. Under current rules on vetting new employees he will need a Biometric Residence Permit before he gets a new job as his passport with his Indefinite Leave to Remain in it has expired, I told him this last year and he's done nothing about it.

[Lootman]

I don't think it's a good idea to be unhelpful and just ignore the letter. You could write back to confirm that he is still the occupier, and that being over 18 now is liable for his own council tax affairs.

You are probably right, it's just that I've been dragged into so many things in the past regarding him knowing he won't listen to a word I say and I won't get backing from his mother, it would be nice to say I don't need to get involved. He has several problems bubbling away which I have warned him about and he's chosen to ignore, with the Council Tax being the least of them.

If the council pays him a visit or otherwise aggressively pursues him, after you have given the council his information, then he may likely blame you for ratting him out. If that goes to court, other risky aspects to his life may become exposed and events may unravel rapidly as his life spirals out of control.

He's probably doomed anyway. You may be identified as the catalyst for his downfall, and (wrongly) blamed for it. Some people are walking disasters. Not only can they not be saved, but you can be punished for trying. I'd demur as much as possible.

Then again, I don't like snitching on people regardless, so that informs my views on things like this.

[melonfool]

He's now walked out of his job without telling them as he doesn't want to speak to them. Under current rules on vetting new employees he will need a Biometric Residence Permit before he gets a new job as his passport with his Indefinite Leave to Remain in it has expired, I told him this last year and he's done nothing about it.

Expired passports can still be used to evidence eligibility to work as long as the 'visa' is still in date, if that is what you mean by 'vetting requirements'.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... nts_v5.pdf

Mel

[k333]

I don't think it's a good idea to be unhelpful and just ignore the letter. You could write back to confirm that he is still the occupier, and that being over 18 now is liable for his own council tax affairs.

You are probably right, it's just that I've been dragged into so many things in the past regarding him knowing he won't listen to a word I say and I won't get backing from his mother, it would be nice to say I don't need to get involved. He has several problems bubbling away which I have warned him about and he's chosen to ignore, with the Council Tax being the least of them.

Then again, I don't like snitching on people regardless, so that informs my views on things like this.

I don't see why telling the council that he is the occupier is snitching! I didn't mention telling them his educational status because that would be a bit like that.

- K

[foundone]

Thanks Melonfool, however it is not clear. There is one part of the document that suggests he is ok with an expired passport and an ILR vignette (Indefinite Leave to Remain):

. For those coming to the UK, this would be in
the form of an entry clearance (often called “a visa”) granted in their country of
application. Vignettes granting permission to come to or remain in the UK will still
demonstrate a right to work while they remain valid.

As it is Indefinite you would assume that the vignette never became invalid and this is still the case for foreign travel where entry back to the UK is ok with a current passport and an entry visa (ILR vignette) in an expired passport. If you go to the Employer Checking Service in the pdf and look at page 24, number 6 it says:

A current passport endorsed to show that the holder is exempt from
immigration control, is allowed to stay indefinitely in the UK, has the right
of abode in the UK, or has no time limit on their stay in the UK.

and if you go to the online checklist at https://www.gov.uk/legal-right-work-uk you will reach number 6 which says:

Does the worker have a current Biometric Residence Permit or current passport endorsed to show they’re allowed to stay indefinitely in the UK?

The permit or passport endorsement needs to show that it’s been issued by the Home Office, it’s current, in the worker’s name and shows that the worker has one of the following:

indefinite leave to enter or remain
no time limit to their stay in the UK
a certificate of entitlement to the Right of Abode
is exempt from immigration control
The passport must also be current.

[melonfool]

It is without doubt better if he gets it sorted, but our legal advice has been that a current 'visa' in an expired passport is OK (as long as the photo is recognisable).

But, as you say, it is not clear - every time we get one we're on the internet looking it up, calling UKBA to check etc.

It must be an awful worry for you!

Mel

[Lootman]

I don't see why telling the council that he is the occupier is snitching! I didn't mention telling them his educational status because that would be a bit like that.

For me, snitching is disclosing any information about a third party that one is not required to give. What's less clear is what is the minimum amount of information that a council can compel a property owner to give, and how.

A bigger issue, as I mentioned earlier, is that a property owner is responsible for paying the council tax on a vacant unit after six months vacancy. So at some point, if the owner does not reveal who lives there and the tenant ducks all requests, then the owner may find themselves getting the bill. So an owner can be motivated to reveal that the unit is occupied. Whether that notification requires the tenant's name is a good question. For instance, your tenant might not live there and instead sublet the unit, or have another family member live there, in which case the owner may not know the identity of the resident anyway.

I would also have thought that a council might be able to discover the name that the utilities are registered in, or perhaps a TV license, although in this case I suspect that the "idiot" is ducking those as well. Utility usage would indicate occupation, if available to the council.

[modellingman]

My stepson has been living in an attached Granny Flat for the last two years ever since my previous tenant moved out. When he moved in he was in full time education and so was exempt from council tax as the only occupant. He then dropped out of college and got a job, at which point I reminded him he would be liable for the tax. 12 months has gone by and I've received a letter from the council asking to confirm that he is still the occupier and what is his educational status.

He doesn't make any contribution to the family budget so I don't intend to pay his tax for him, he's 19 now. I'm confident he is ignoring their letters but I am happy to leave him to sort his own mess out as he is a complete idiot. Am I safe ignoring the letter from the council or will this all come back to me somehow like all the other trouble I've had to sort out for him in the past?

It depends what you mean by "safe" but there will be consequences for you of ignoring the council's letter.

Councils have powers under The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 to make enquiries of any resident, owner or managing agent of a dwelling to determine who is the "liable person" for Council Tax. The person to whom the enquiry is directed is required to respond within 21 days. In the case of non-response, Schedule 3 of the Local Government Finance Act 1992 allows councils to impose a financial penalty of £50 in respect of the initial enquiry and £200 for subsequent repetitions of the enquiry.

Having made an enquiry and received no response, your council may well decide as an alternative to (or in addition to) imposing a penalty that you are the liable person and will issue you with the Council Tax bill.

[Lootman]

Councils have powers under The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 to make enquiries of any resident, owner or managing agent of a dwelling to determine who is the "liable person" for Council Tax. The person to whom the enquiry is directed is required to respond within 21 days. In the case of non-response, Schedule 3 of the Local Government Finance Act 1992 allows councils to impose a financial penalty of £50 in respect of the initial enquiry and £200 for subsequent repetitions of the enquiry.

Presumably that is "within 21 days of receipt".

An owner of a building does not necessarily live in that building, nor ever visit except rarely. So a letter sent to "The Owner" at that address would in many cases never be received at all. Moreover, unless the owner lives within that council district, the council may not know the postal address of the owner at all.

Again, a letter to another resident of that building who is not the owner cannot reasonably put that resident under any obligation to identify other residents. Indeed, they may not know who they are or whether a unit is occupied.

[modellingman]

Councils have powers under The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 to make enquiries of any resident, owner or managing agent of a dwelling to determine who is the "liable person" for Council Tax. The person to whom the enquiry is directed is required to respond within 21 days. In the case of non-response, Schedule 3 of the Local Government Finance Act 1992 allows councils to impose a financial penalty of £50 in respect of the initial enquiry and £200 for subsequent repetitions of the enquiry.

Presumably that is "within 21 days of receipt".

It is within 21 days of service of a notice by the council making the request for information.

An owner of a building does not necessarily live in that building, nor ever visit except rarely. So a letter sent to "The Owner" at that address would in many cases never be received at all. Moreover, unless the owner lives within that council district, the council may not know the postal address of the owner at all.

All dwelling owners and their addresses are known through the land registration system. Whenever ownership of a dwelling is transferred there is a process that informs the local council of the change of ownership and the address of the new owner (which, of course, is not necessarily the same as that of the dwelling itself). This is so that the council knows who is at the top of the hierarchy of liability for paying Council Tax (see, for example http://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/info/20026 ... _is_liable for an explanation of this hierarchy) and the address at which they may be contacted.

Again, a letter to another resident of that building who is not the owner cannot reasonably put that resident under any obligation to identify other residents. Indeed, they may not know who they are or whether a unit is occupied.

The relevant regulation (Regulation 3 of The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992) identifies that "resident" means a resident of the dwelling in question and not, for example, a resident of a different dwelling which happens to be in the same building. Of course, it might be the case that, as with the OP, the owner of the dwelling in question (the granny annex) might happen to be a resident of a dwelling (the main house) in the same building as the dwelling in question. In such a case, the enquiry is made to the enquiree in their role as the dwelling in question's owner rather than in their role as a resident of a dwelling other than the dwelling in question. The former is permitted under the Regulation 3 whereas the latter is not.

[Lootman]

It is within 21 days of service of a notice by the council making the request for information.

Do you mean within 21 days of successful service? That might be very different from attempted service. What if the owner is out of the country for months at a time?

All dwelling owners and their addresses are known through the land registration system. Whenever ownership of a dwelling is transferred there is a process that informs the local council of the change of ownership and the address of the new owner.

The council may indeed know the address of the new owner at the time the property was transferred. That doesn't mean they have a current address. Moreover, the owner may be an entity and not a person. Or the owner may be overseas, or the entity may have been subsequently sold etc. etc.

The relevant regulation (Regulation 3 of The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992) identifies that "resident" means a resident of the dwelling in question and not, for example, a resident of a different dwelling which happens to be in the same building. Of course, it might be the case that, as with the OP, the owner of the dwelling in question (the granny annex) might happen to be a resident of a dwelling (the main house) in the same building as the dwelling in question. In such a case, the enquiry is made to the enquiree in their role as the dwelling in question's owner rather than in their role as a resident of a dwelling other than the dwelling in question. The former is permitted under the Regulation 3 whereas the latter is not.

OK, so as I said, a non-owning resident of the subject building cannot reasonably be expected to have any knowledge of who else lives in that building. Which means only the owner can be asked, and the owner may not be traceable unless, as in this case, the owner just happens to live there as well.

That is why, in all my experience, the Council writes to "The Occupier" of the subject unit, which surely makes the most sense. Do you have any statistics showing how much success local authorities have collecting these alleged "fines" for non-compliance?

[chas49]

Moderator Message:
The OP's questions have been answered and this topic is veering off into theoretical discussion which is off-topic for this board. The topic is now closed. If the OP has further practical questions, please contact me by PM.