House theft

[Mike4]

Yes, stealing houses is now a thing, according the BBC.

With a few important details missing/wrong and AIUI, it seems what they do is identify a BTL where the owner has no mortgage and not bovvered to record his home address as different from the address of the BTL. Then they steal his ID and bung the BTL up for sale with an estate agent. When a buyer is found, the fraudulent seller uses the real owner's stolen ID to instruct a solicitor but the funds end up in the fraudulent seller's bank. There's bound to be more to it than the BBC explain but this is loosely what seems to happen.

Point being, that when the LR registers the house in the new (scammed) buyer's name, ownership really does transfer to the buyer despite the deception, and the real owner loses his or her house, apparently.

Now this is troubling me because I moved house a while back and one or two of my BTLs might (possibly!) still have my old address attached to them and I suspect I am therefore vulnerable to this fraud too. Having had a scan through the LR website I can't see any method for me to inform them of my change of address, so my question is do I need to instruct and pay my solicitor to update the LR records and apply a restriction to each record? Or can I do it myself?

Thanks for any replies.

[CliffEdge]

You can register on the LR to be notified of any activity relating to any property.

[Mike4]

You can register on the LR to be notified of any activity relating to any property.

How?

[mc2fool]

Point being, that when the LR registers the house in the new (scammed) buyer's name, ownership really does transfer to the buyer despite the deception, and the real owner loses his or her house, apparently.

But surely the following must also apply to stolen houses:

"If you buy stolen goods, the general rule is that you are not the legal owner even if you paid a fair price and didn’t know that the goods were stolen. The person who originally owned them is still the legal owner."
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/scotland/consumer/somethings-gone-wrong-with-a-purchase/stolen-goods-s1/

[mc2fool]

You can register on the LR to be notified of any activity relating to any property.

How?

https://propertyalert.landregistry.gov.uk/

[CliffEdge]

You can register on the LR to be notified of any activity relating to any property.

How?

Hm land registry property alert

[Mike4]

You can register on the LR to be notified of any activity relating to any property.

How?

https://propertyalert.landregistry.gov.uk/

Brill, thanks!

I'll have a careful read of that and come back if more questions arise.

[CliffEdge]

Point being, that when the LR registers the house in the new (scammed) buyer's name, ownership really does transfer to the buyer despite the deception, and the real owner loses his or her house, apparently.

But surely the following must also apply to stolen houses:

"If you buy stolen goods, the general rule is that you are not the legal owner even if you paid a fair price and didn’t know that the goods were stolen. The person who originally owned them is still the legal owner."
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/scotland/consumer/somethings-gone-wrong-with-a-purchase/stolen-goods-s1/

I believe this is the case but it's a bit more complicated because the LR protects itself from liability for fraudulent transfers

[Mike4]

Point being, that when the LR registers the house in the new (scammed) buyer's name, ownership really does transfer to the buyer despite the deception, and the real owner loses his or her house, apparently.

But surely the following must also apply to stolen houses:

"If you buy stolen goods, the general rule is that you are not the legal owner even if you paid a fair price and didn’t know that the goods were stolen. The person who originally owned them is still the legal owner."
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/scotland/consumer/somethings-gone-wrong-with-a-purchase/stolen-goods-s1/

AIUI houses are not goods, they are 'estates in land' so fall outside that general rule.

Or something like that.

[IrishIceHawk]

I remember reading about this a few years back, and if recall correctly, the issue was not as much with selling the house (as the ownership may still be in the name of original owner) but the mortgage charge in the property.

In the instance I remember, the property was in the name of the owner, possibly with the address of the mortgage-free btl property.
Using those details, a mortgage was acquired in the name of the owner, but funds went to the scammers, and as there was no mortgage, there wasn't an existing company to object to the charge on the property.

So, while the action was fraudulent, the mortgage company argued - successfully - that the charge on the property was still valid (being a property charge for the debt for money borrowed against that property, rather than money owed by the incorrect person) so while the defrauded owner still owned the property, they now had the mortgage debt/charge, even though it was done fraudulently.

Suggestions were as mentioned here - keep a small mortgage (so a company already has a charge) anti fraud restriction on title, and set up alerts on property

[Arborbridge]

You can register on the LR to be notified of any activity relating to any property.

How?

Hm land registry property alert

When this was discussed previously, I remember the problem is that this alert is seriously re-active and does not trigger until potentially too late.

As regards other comments about still being the legal owner, I don't think that's the same a getting your money back....

[Arborbridge]

Does anyone have an answer to the OP's question:

Having had a scan through the LR website I can't see any method for me to inform them of my change of address, so my question is do I need to instruct and pay my solicitor to update the LR records and apply a restriction to each record? Or can I do it myself?

It would be of interest to me too.


Arb.

[monabri]

How about form COG1 from the Land Registry?

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ct-address


I've used the LR notification system and it did keep me informed.

[Mike4]

How?

Hm land registry property alert

When this was discussed previously, I remember the problem is that this alert is seriously re-active and does not trigger until potentially too late.

As regards other comments about still being the legal owner, I don't think that's the same a getting your money back....

Quite. Discovering there is now a 90% mortgage on a property you still own can be more than irritating, I would imagine. But this is swerving slightly off topic as in the BBC article (on programme "You and Yours" recently) interviewed a chap who suffered 'identity theft' and really did lose his house when the fraudster 'sold' his house from under his feet. It appears that once the Land Registry have changed the "Proprietorship" entry on the Register to that of the innocent buyer in good faith, even as a result of fraud, legal ownership transfers.

So while signing up for the LR alerts is certainly a Good Idea it doesn't actually prevent this happening. Just warns you, possibly very late, that it is about to happen or worse, has already happened.

The Beeb advised in the programme applying a "restriction" to your property title which actually seems to lock the LR entry on the property and prevents any changes. This, I think, is what I want to find out about how to do. Googling I found the LR page linked to below, which says:

"Restrictions prohibit the making of an entry in respect of a disposition or a disposition of a specified kind. The prohibition may be indefinite or for a specified period and it may be absolute or conditional on something happening (for example, on getting the consent of a third-party)."

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... in-form-ll

So I guess the restriction I want/need would be that permission needs to be granted by me (or say, a trusted relative) for the LR proprietorship entry to be changed. The web page also mentions conveyancers for administrating restrictions so I guess this is a bit of a minefield and employing a solicitor to do it would be a jolly good idea, or even perhaps mandatory.

[CliffEdge]

Hm land registry property alert

When this was discussed previously, I remember the problem is that this alert is seriously re-active and does not trigger until potentially too late.

As regards other comments about still being the legal owner, I don't think that's the same a getting your money back....

Quite. Discovering there is now a 90% mortgage on a property you still own can be more than irritating, I would imagine. But this is swerving slightly off topic as in the BBC article (on programme "You and Yours" recently) interviewed a chap who suffered 'identity theft' and really did lose his house when the fraudster 'sold' his house from under his feet. It appears that once the Land Registry have changed the "Proprietorship" entry on the Register to that of the innocent buyer in good faith, even as a result of fraud, legal ownership transfers.

So while signing up for the LR alerts is certainly a Good Idea it doesn't actually prevent this happening. Just warns you, possibly very late, that it is about to happen or worse, has already happened.

The Beeb advised in the programme applying a "restriction" to your property title which actually seems to lock the LR entry on the property and prevents any changes. This, I think, is what I want to find out about how to do. Googling I found the LR page linked to below, which says:

"Restrictions prohibit the making of an entry in respect of a disposition or a disposition of a specified kind. The prohibition may be indefinite or for a specified period and it may be absolute or conditional on something happening (for example, on getting the consent of a third-party)."

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... in-form-ll

So I guess the restriction I want/need would be that permission needs to be granted by me (or say, a trusted relative) for the LR proprietorship entry to be changed. The web page also mentions conveyancers for administrating restrictions so I guess this is a bit of a minefield and employing a solicitor to do it would be a jolly good idea, or even perhaps mandatory.

Thanks that's useful if frightening info.
But if your I'd has been stolen then surely they could remove any restrictions?

[Mike4]

When this was discussed previously, I remember the problem is that this alert is seriously re-active and does not trigger until potentially too late.

As regards other comments about still being the legal owner, I don't think that's the same a getting your money back....

Quite. Discovering there is now a 90% mortgage on a property you still own can be more than irritating, I would imagine. But this is swerving slightly off topic as in the BBC article (on programme "You and Yours" recently) interviewed a chap who suffered 'identity theft' and really did lose his house when the fraudster 'sold' his house from under his feet. It appears that once the Land Registry have changed the "Proprietorship" entry on the Register to that of the innocent buyer in good faith, even as a result of fraud, legal ownership transfers.

So while signing up for the LR alerts is certainly a Good Idea it doesn't actually prevent this happening. Just warns you, possibly very late, that it is about to happen or worse, has already happened.

The Beeb advised in the programme applying a "restriction" to your property title which actually seems to lock the LR entry on the property and prevents any changes. This, I think, is what I want to find out about how to do. Googling I found the LR page linked to below, which says:

"Restrictions prohibit the making of an entry in respect of a disposition or a disposition of a specified kind. The prohibition may be indefinite or for a specified period and it may be absolute or conditional on something happening (for example, on getting the consent of a third-party)."

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... in-form-ll

So I guess the restriction I want/need would be that permission needs to be granted by me (or say, a trusted relative) for the LR proprietorship entry to be changed. The web page also mentions conveyancers for administrating restrictions so I guess this is a bit of a minefield and employing a solicitor to do it would be a jolly good idea, or even perhaps mandatory.

Thanks that's useful if frightening info.
But if your I'd has been stolen then surely they could remove any restrictions?

You just trumped me in those "frightening thoughts" stakes!!

[Arborbridge]

Quite. Discovering there is now a 90% mortgage on a property you still own can be more than irritating, I would imagine. But this is swerving slightly off topic as in the BBC article (on programme "You and Yours" recently) interviewed a chap who suffered 'identity theft' and really did lose his house when the fraudster 'sold' his house from under his feet. It appears that once the Land Registry have changed the "Proprietorship" entry on the Register to that of the innocent buyer in good faith, even as a result of fraud, legal ownership transfers.

So while signing up for the LR alerts is certainly a Good Idea it doesn't actually prevent this happening. Just warns you, possibly very late, that it is about to happen or worse, has already happened.

The Beeb advised in the programme applying a "restriction" to your property title which actually seems to lock the LR entry on the property and prevents any changes. This, I think, is what I want to find out about how to do. Googling I found the LR page linked to below, which says:

"Restrictions prohibit the making of an entry in respect of a disposition or a disposition of a specified kind. The prohibition may be indefinite or for a specified period and it may be absolute or conditional on something happening (for example, on getting the consent of a third-party)."

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... in-form-ll

So I guess the restriction I want/need would be that permission needs to be granted by me (or say, a trusted relative) for the LR proprietorship entry to be changed. The web page also mentions conveyancers for administrating restrictions so I guess this is a bit of a minefield and employing a solicitor to do it would be a jolly good idea, or even perhaps mandatory.

Thanks that's useful if frightening info.
But if your I'd has been stolen then surely they could remove any restrictions?

You just trumped me in those "frightening thoughts" stakes!!

Yes, I immediately thought the same. It's a nightmare scenario. I guess one should have at least two people to cut down the ID fraud likelihood, and/or involve a solicitor which drags in more expense for something we should not have to be concerned with if the LR did their job in a foolproof way. Clearly a system set up a century ago has not adapted!

[CliffEdge]

Thanks that's useful if frightening info.
But if your I'd has been stolen then surely they could remove any restrictions?

You just trumped me in those "frightening thoughts" stakes!!

Yes, I immediately thought the same. It's a nightmare scenario. I guess one should have at least two people to cut down the ID fraud likelihood, and/or involve a solicitor which drags in more expense for something we should not have to be concerned with if the LR did their job in a foolproof way. Clearly a system set up a century ago has not adapted!

I think it's partly to do with the situation where a property is part of an estate and it's sold but there's a dispute over a will and who gets what. Say it's worth 1000 and one person inherits two thirds and another one third as beneficial owners. Once it's sold the entitlement transfers to the cash realised and away from the property and any disputes don't drag in the LR to a court case.
Unfortunately this has other unwanted consequences such as above.

[mc2fool]

As regards other comments about still being the legal owner, I don't think that's the same a getting your money back....

In the reports that had been mentioned so far the person that needed to get their money back was the scammed buyer; what the scammed owner needs is to get their full legal ownership of the house back. Which is not to say that it wouldn't be a complete nightmare ... (and then there's the mortgage issue...)

I couldn't find any recent articles on this and there doesn't seem to be a write-up of the "You and Yours" report, but it can be listened to at https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0010nt4 and is quite a horror story. It's the first article and is around 13 minutes.

The catalogue of oversights is quite something, starting with the DVLA issuing a duplicate victim's driving licence to the fraudster and then contacting the victim to tell him that they suspected they'd just issued a duplicate of his licence to a fraudster! You couldn't make it up...

I did find an article on the Home Owners Alliance website which gives the advice, as already noted by others, that "You can safeguard your property even further by applying to put a restriction on title deeds of your property" -- but then goes on to say, "This prevents the Land Registry from registering a sale or mortgage on your property unless a conveyancer or solicitor certifies the application was made by you", which, as also already noted, isn't very reassuring given that duping a solicitor with fake/stolen ID is at the core of the scam!

https://hoa.org.uk/2019/06/fraud-steal-your-home/. Also see https://hoa.org.uk/advice/guides-for-homeowners/i-am-managing-2/protect-property-fraud/

I also found the following FT and associated DM articles, which describe how a house belonging to Max Hastings' wife, Penelope, was stolen, this time by the fraudster changing their name to Penelope Hastings by deed poll and then getting a passport in that name. As it turned out the Land Registry "smelling a rat" declined to register the sale, so Mrs Hastings still owns the property, but not before the scammed buyer had wire transferred £1.35m to a bank in Dubai...

https://www.google.com/search?q=FT+stealing+london+houses (click Stealing London houses link in results)
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3356929/The-thieves-stole-wife-s-house-sold-1-3million.html

[Arborbridge]

All this is very frightening.
Perhaps we ought to be discussing the basic problem here: how does one protect from and recover quickly from, ID theft? That seems to be the weakness which led to exposing all the later system failures which were then exploited.


Arb.