Father's will

[servodude]

My father's ex-wife is handling this very strangely. She has now vowed not to have any contact with me - ever! plus a heap of other abuse.

Oh dear.
It begins to sound as if she's the one that needs a POA.
I wonder if you could have her removed as Attorney... but then what would you do...

Sympathy.

V8

Horrid situation.
A friend of ours found herself similarly positioned about a year back.
Her mum had died (very young) about four years back and her dad had met a new lass within a year (which was viewed differently from different positions)
They were both quite well off (he had been a regular in a Scottish soap years ago before working in oil in Singapore); she had been married to a guy in oil in Singapore before.
To be honest I really liked both of them but then he wasn't my dad.

He ended up dying unexpectedly during a game of tennis (wasn't yet 60)
They'd both sorted their wills out to benefit each other (involving UK, AUS and SING assets and domains)
- felt like a tontine more than anything else to our friend (and she'd lost)

It ended up "sorted" legally but by Christ it seemed like a horrific experience
I'm not in a position to have anything similar to care about (thanks mum and dad you can keep on trucking!)
- and given the bitterness misery and resentment I've seen it cause, I'm not sure how much money would make up for it

-sd

[Avantegarde]

Update:

My father's ex-wife is handling this very strangely. She has now vowed not to have any contact with me - ever! plus a heap of other abuse. For the crime of refusing to sign a document before seeing it. The professional wills and LPA chappie agreed with her that there is no harm in doing so.

So I have now written to the Office of the Public Guardian asking if they are okay with an attorney signing a draft version, and if not to send me a copy of the original, which they have already refused to do by phone.

GS

The OPG will probably have no knowledge of the PoA until it is registered with them. And the fact that you haven't signed it, even though you are named as a substitute attorney, is probably an insurmountable obstacle to your father's ex-wife getting it registered in the first place. Just so you are aware, any PoA ends immediately on death. So any powers the ex-wife may accrue before death under a PoA will end at that point, immediately.

[GoSeigen]

Update:

My father has died today with the LPA situation unresolved. By some strange timing I received an email yesterday from a Solicitor acting for his ex asking what I wanted to do about the LPA and enclosing copies of the signed documents that I hadn't previously seen which is useful.

So now, the LPA situation is irrelevant and the will comes back into play. I wonder, as the son of the deceased, and being aware that a will exists: do I have any right to see it? I'm pretty sure the answer is "no, not until it has been received by the probate office and then for a fee", but there may be subtleties, like if I am a named executor or if I am a beneficiary/legatee.

As a reminder my father and his ex divorced a handful of years ago (which of course ended all previous wills and their assets were divided by mutual agreement), then he suddenly made a new will with her involvement and without my knowledge 12 months ago. Very soon after he "lost his marbles" due to encroaching dementia but not before telling me about the recent will and the fact that it left everything to his ex and none to his two sons. My impression was that it was a mirror will -- weird because she was his ex and she'd have no obligation if he predeceased her, as has turned out to be the case.


So where do I stand and are there any actions I should take and when?

Thanks.

GS

[monabri]

Update:

My father has died today with the LPA situation unresolved. By some strange timing I received an email yesterday from a Solicitor acting for his ex asking what I wanted to do about the LPA and enclosing copies of the signed documents that I hadn't previously seen which is useful.

So now, the LPA situation is irrelevant and the will comes back into play. I wonder, as the son of the deceased, and being aware that a will exists: do I have any right to see it? I'm pretty sure the answer is "no, not until it has been received by the probate office and then for a fee", but there may be subtleties, like if I am a named executor or if I am a beneficiary/legatee.

As a reminder my father and his ex divorced a handful of years ago (which of course ended all previous wills and their assets were divided by mutual agreement), then he suddenly made a new will with her involvement and without my knowledge 12 months ago. Very soon after he "lost his marbles" due to encroaching dementia but not before telling me about the recent will and the fact that it left everything to his ex and none to his two sons. My impression was that it was a mirror will -- weird because she was his ex and she'd have no obligation if he predeceased her, as has turned out to be the case.


So where do I stand and are there any actions I should take and when?

Thanks.

GS

First, commiserations on your loss.

You can obtain a copy of a will for £3.50. ( although the website is out of action until Jan 31st). You don't need permission. It ( the will)won't be available for a while as it has to go through probate. You will have to search by year,date and surname.

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Ac ... dToPayment

[Avantegarde]

I'm sorry to read about your father's death. In your shoes I would start by sending the ex-wife and her lawyer a polite but to-the-point letter/email asking: Is there a Will (because your dad says there was)? Do they have it (because presumably they do)? What does the Will say? Can you please have a copy (which you will obtain anyway after probate)? And, how do they intend to proceed? I would not insert any threats or recriminations - just make reasonable requests. At the same time, I would seek advice from a knowledgeable solicitor to explore the pros and cons of challenging the Will, if you are minded to do so.

[Avantegarde]

Also, do the LPA documents which have just been supplied to you reveal anything of interest? Hang on to them in case you need to cite them as evidence of something.

[GoSeigen]

I'm sorry to read about your father's death. In your shoes I would start by sending the ex-wife and her lawyer a polite but to-the-point letter/email asking: Is there a Will (because your dad says there was)? Do they have it (because presumably they do)? What does the Will say? Can you please have a copy (which you will obtain anyway after probate)? And, how do they intend to proceed? I would not insert any threats or recriminations - just make reasonable requests. At the same time, I would seek advice from a knowledgeable solicitor to explore the pros and cons of challenging the Will, if you are minded to do so.

Thank you Avantgarde, I did that and now I have a copy of the will.

I won't go into great detail but here are my current thoughts: my dad's father inherited a large amount of property from his father, my dad and his brother inherited their shares from their father when my dad was in his thirties. He was sent to the best boarding schools in the country for his entire schooling. He spent his life talking about how he wanted to pass on something to his children. His second wife divorced him at the age of 73-odd and two years later (in Jan 2021) he and his ex-wife, without the knowledge of me and my brother, made mirror wills leaving their respective estates to the surviving partner who in each case would be executor. [I'm surmising mirror wills because that is what he implied. I actually know nothing of ex-wife's will except that they were done at the same time].

My (younger) brother is not mentioned at all in his will. I get nothing as long as ex-wife survives. However if she dies before proving the will I as nominated reserve executor have the joyful task of passing all my dad's estate into the estate of his ex-wife, nothing for me. No trusts are involved. Everything passes absolutely.

At the very least I struggle to see how the implementation of this arrangement matches my father's aspirations. He either had a drastic, secret change of mind, or was manipulated, or the will was poorly drafted not in accordance with his wishes and he didn't notice. The will has been the elephant in the room since I heard about it; ex-wife has refused to talk about it with me whenever I have mentioned it.


Those are my general thoughts; I would welcome comments on the following emboldened part of the will. It falls under the heading "distribution of the Estate" and deals with the case of ex-wife predeceasing my father:

"If my friend _EX-WIFE_ of ADDRESS is living on the date of my death I give devise and bequeath all the residue of my estate both real and personal whatsoever and wheresoever (including property over which I may have a power of appointment) after payment of my debts funeral and testementary expenses and subject to the general provisions of this my Will to her absolutely but If she does not so survive me I give devise and bequeath my estate as aforesaid to my Trustees** to sell call in and convert the same into money with power in their absolute discretion to postpone such sale calling in and conversion without being liable for loss or waste and to hold the remainder ["my residuary estate"] upon trust for my son GOSEIGEN of ADDRESS to distribute the same to the persons if living and in the manner set out in a memorandum of wishes which I have already prepared and signed and which will be found with this my will at my death and in so far as there may be such articles at the date of my death which are not subject to any directions contained in the said list I GIVE the same to the aforesaid GOSEIGEN absolutely."
** "Trustees" according to previous clauses would be me, GoSeigen


Now obviously ex-wife has survived him so this bold section doesn't have effect, but I am wondering what it all actually means if hypothetically she had died first -- this is what I as executor would have had to implement. e.g. Why are the two limbs worded so differently: in my estimation they should have been nearly identical... Should I be wondering about the skills of the drafter?


Any comments about either this clause or the situation of the will in general?


GS

[stewamax]

However if she dies before proving the will I as nominated reserve executor have the joyful task of passing all my dad's estate into the estate of his ex-wife, nothing for me. No trusts are involved. Everything passes absolutely.

You have no obligation to be the executor: if you wish, simply sign a Deed of Renunciation and let someone else do the work

[GoSeigen]

However if she dies before proving the will I as nominated reserve executor have the joyful task of passing all my dad's estate into the estate of his ex-wife, nothing for me. No trusts are involved. Everything passes absolutely.

You have no obligation to be the executor: if you wish, simply sign a Deed of Renunciation and let someone else do the work

I know that. The point is why would my father want that in his will? I’m doubting that he fully understood what was in there so looking for flaws in my thinking. E.g. maybe I’m mistaken and it’s standard practice for a father to leave his entire estate to the friend who helped him make his will and appoint his son to execute this arrangement

Also as I said I wonder about the skills and responsibilities of the will drafter.

GS

[stewamax]

You have no obligation to be the executor: if you wish, simply sign a Deed of Renunciation and let someone else do the work

I know that. Also as I said I wonder about the skills and responsibilities of the will drafter

But also consider the responsibilities of the executor if you don't renounce; you will have legal responsibility for the accurate disposal of assets, and the beneficiary can give you hell for a mistake. As sole executor - if you undertake it, you would appear to be on a hiding to nothing.

[GoSeigen]

You have no obligation to be the executor: if you wish, simply sign a Deed of Renunciation and let someone else do the work

I know that. Also as I said I wonder about the skills and responsibilities of the will drafter

But also consider the responsibilities of the executor if you don't renounce; you will have legal responsibility for the accurate disposal of assets, and the beneficiary can give you hell for a mistake. As sole executor - if you undertake it, you would appear to be on a hiding to nothing.

Indeed; so I ask again, why would a person in their right mind put this into a will, other than the reasons I gave earlier? And if/when the will is challenged, can I point to the will drafter as 1. not having drafted what my father intended and/or 2. having failed to explain the actual meaning such that my father could have objected and revised it. Of course the exact details of my father's instructions will not be known without access to the drafter's notes or his own statements on the subject.


GS

[Avantegarde]

At this point you need the advice of a decent High Street solicitor who is expert in these matters and can guide you. Your father's Will has been written in a style devoid of any proper syntax (such as punctuation) which appears to be loved by the legal profession and which is designed purely to baffle non-lawyers. I discovered this when reading the very simple Will of my late father a few years ago. My sister and I were the sole inheritors and the executors but the language of the Will was baffling. "What the f**k does that mean?" I kept asking myself. Ask someone who knows.

[Avantegarde]

By the way, I suspect that trying to unpick your father's state of mind at the time he signed the Will may be a hopeless task unless you have some fairly solid evidence to support you. I would focus on what the Will does say, and see if it can be lawfully challenged or altered, assuming that is what you want to do. At this point, ask an expert.

[Dod101]

At this point you need the advice of a decent High Street solicitor who is expert in these matters and can guide you. Your father's Will has been written in a style devoid of any proper syntax (such as punctuation) which appears to be loved by the legal profession and which is designed purely to baffle non-lawyers. I discovered this when reading the very simple Will of my late father a few years ago. My sister and I were the sole inheritors and the executors but the language of the Will was baffling. "What the f**k does that mean?" I kept asking myself. Ask someone who knows.

I am not sure you are correct. The absence of punctuation is, I always understood, to be quite intentional, because a comma in the wrong place for instance, can change the meaning of a sentence dramatically. Punctuation is not absent simply to baffle non lawyers. Lawyers have been writing Wills for long enough to have a style well understood by all.

Dod

[Dod101]

You have no obligation to be the executor: if you wish, simply sign a Deed of Renunciation and let someone else do the work

I know that. Also as I said I wonder about the skills and responsibilities of the will drafter

But also consider the responsibilities of the executor if you don't renounce; you will have legal responsibility for the accurate disposal of assets, and the beneficiary can give you hell for a mistake. As sole executor - if you undertake it, you would appear to be on a hiding to nothing.

Indeed; so I ask again, why would a person in their right mind put this into a will, other than the reasons I gave earlier? And if/when the will is challenged, can I point to the will drafter as 1. not having drafted what my father intended and/or 2. having failed to explain the actual meaning such that my father could have objected and revised it. Of course the exact details of my father's instructions will not be known without access to the drafter's notes or his own statements on the subject.

You can of course point out anything you like, but whether anyone will pay any attention is another matter. I am not sure that you have actually said what you wish to achieve anyway; presumably that your father's assets do not go off in toto to his ex wife. Neither you nor father presumably was living in a place where the children had any legal rights to a claim on his estate and so in principle, your father can leave his assets to anyone he likes. Presumably to overturn his Will you will need to prove that he acted under duress or that he was of unsound mind when the Will was drawn up. In order to challenge the terms of your father's Will you are asking a court to enter your father's mind and to interpret what he may have originally intended. I guess there is nothing particularly irrational for him to favour an ex wife over his children, however unusual that may seem, particularly if he was still on reasonable terms with the ex wife. He may have all sorts of reasons for doing that.

However if you are clear in your mind what it is you would like to achieve, consulting a lawyer with all the facts may be helpful but of curse it will cost you and may not achieve much, especially if you cannot discuss matters on at least some level with the ex wife just to see where the land lies there, first.

Dod

[MaraMan]

I am in a similar position with my recently deceased Mother's will. Late in life and when she was muddled and very deaf another family member got her to sign a new will leaving her entire estate to them, and naming me as co-executor, all unbeknown to me. I have told them as politely as I could to Foxtrot Oscar. I suspect that's the only satisfaction I will get over the matter,

MM

[scrumpyjack]

IANAL but I suspect it would be very risky to try to challenge the Will in a situation like this, unless you have clear evidence that your father was improperly induced to sign a Will that he did not understand. The legal fees will be significant, and not in proportion to the estate. You could end up having to pay her legal costs as well as yours and still get nothing from the estate.

I'm sure you are aware of this anyway!

[dealtn]

Your father's Will has been written in a style devoid of any proper syntax (such as punctuation) which appears to be loved by the legal profession and which is designed purely to baffle non-lawyers.

No it isn't. It might be a by-product that (some) non-lawyers are baffled, but that isn't why it is used, or designed, purely or otherwise.

[Avantegarde]

Ok, look at the bit of the Will posted by the OP. It involves a sentence 16 (sixteen) lines long with numerous clauses, all which could, and should, be delineated by commas and at least two full stops. These basic elements of English exist to aid understanding. Any idea that the sentence, as written, is precise and clear to a layman is just laughable. The sentence in question is also ambiguous. It introduces a group of people - "persons" - whose identity is, in this context, completely obscure. Who are these persons? Where did they suddenly spring from? I have friends who are lawyers and I sometimes chide them about the continued use of arcane legalese and obscure sentence constructions like these. They just laugh and say "that's the way it is" but can never really justify it. When I had a Will drawn up I told the solicitor to put it in plain English. Which they did. It was such an improvement.

PS: Sorry for veering off topic.

[Clitheroekid]

Those are my general thoughts; I would welcome comments on the following emboldened part of the will. It falls under the heading "distribution of the Estate" and deals with the case of ex-wife predeceasing my father:

"If my friend _EX-WIFE_ of ADDRESS is living on the date of my death I give devise and bequeath all the residue of my estate both real and personal whatsoever and wheresoever (including property over which I may have a power of appointment) after payment of my debts funeral and testementary expenses and subject to the general provisions of this my Will to her absolutely but If she does not so survive me I give devise and bequeath my estate as aforesaid to my Trustees** to sell call in and convert the same into money with power in their absolute discretion to postpone such sale calling in and conversion without being liable for loss or waste and to hold the remainder ["my residuary estate"] upon trust for my son GOSEIGEN of ADDRESS to distribute the same to the persons if living and in the manner set out in a memorandum of wishes which I have already prepared and signed and which will be found with this my will at my death and in so far as there may be such articles at the date of my death which are not subject to any directions contained in the said list I GIVE the same to the aforesaid GOSEIGEN absolutely."
** "Trustees" according to previous clauses would be me, GoSeigen

Now obviously ex-wife has survived him so this bold section doesn't have effect, but I am wondering what it all actually means if hypothetically she had died first -- this is what I as executor would have had to implement. e.g. Why are the two limbs worded so differently: in my estimation they should have been nearly identical... Should I be wondering about the skills of the drafter?

Firstly, can you confirm that you are in fact the executor? Usually, where the whole of the estate is left to one adult beneficiary they would be appointed as the sole executor. It's very unusual to appoint one executor then leave the whole estate to someone else, if only because - unlike the beneficiary - the executor has no incentive whatsoever to accept the appointment and take on the tedious task of administering the estate for no reward.

Secondly, have you established that the memorandum of wishes exists? Assuming it does and it was found with the Will, as stated, then it forms part of the Will and must be admitted to probate along with the Will.

I have to say that it's a very stupid way of preparing a Will, as there must be a risk that the memorandum would be lost, and if the object of the separate memorandum was to try and hide the identity of the beneficiaries it's failed, as once admitted to probate the memorandum becomes a public document as part of the Will.

The relevant law is known as the incorporation of documents. A testator may incorporate another document into his Will by referring to it in his Will, as here.

There are three conditions which must be satisfied in order for a document to be incorporated by reference, these being as follows:

1. The document must be in existence at the date of the Will. This box is ticked, as the Will refers to it having been `prepared and signed'.

2. The Will must refer to the document as an existing document - tick.

3. The description of the document in the Will must mean that there is no doubt that the document is the document which is being referred to. This is why it's important that the memorandum was with the Will. If it was found separately there's a risk that it could be a replacement for the original, and therefore not valid.

The whole situation sounds very suspicious, and you may be inclined to investigate the circumstances in which the WIll was made, To do so you should try to obtain a copy of the file from whoever it was that made the Will.

This is quite a common tactic used by solicitors who are investigating suspicious Wills, and there's actually a specific type of letter known as a Larke -v- Nugus letter - it's named after a case of that name. There's a summary of the relevant law here (not an endorsement of the firm that prepared the feature) - https://www.footanstey.com/article/chal ... statement/