Returning goods

[UncleEbenezer]

I bought (online) a bean-to-cup coffee machine to replace my ailing espresso machine from 1998.

It turned out great in all but one thing. The coffee it produces is not hot enough, verging on tepid. This is a showstopper: I get no pleasure from a tepid cup of coffee, and post-heating in the microwave is not a satisfactory solution even if I could confidently time it not to boil when the volume of liquid is tiny!

The retailer has a published returns policy which gives me 30 days. I used most of that time to try and google a solution, get a second opinion, etc. I gave the machine a final cleanup and contacted them using their online returns form within the 30 days to return it.

Since then I have the strong impression of being fobbed off in various ways, and being made to jump through hoops, such as send it to the manufacturer to adjust (which of course puts me way beyond the 30 days). The most recent is that I have to send a video of it making a cup of coffee: something my android phone may be able to do (though I doubt it has sufficient storage for a video), but I can't.

Is there any merit in what they're doing? At what point should I switch from "please arrange for the return" (I have the original packaging) to "letter before action", and how many hoops should I jump through first? I wouldn't object to paying a return fee on the scale detailed on their returns page, but I do have a problem with it dragging on - and taking up space!

[pje16]

Forget the 30-day rule as it “not fit for purpose”
https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/busines ... ow-1334458

[UncleEbenezer]

Forget the 30-day rule as it “not fit for purpose”
https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/busines ... ow-1334458

Trouble with that is that it leads to what looks like a subjective argument: they could turn round and say that's what it does: if you don't consider it hot enough, tough. That kind of argument terrifies me.

Applying a sledgehammer analogy to crack my nut ... The Post Office told each of those Horizon victims they were the only one having problems with the system, and for years the courts sided with the PO. If that could happen over something so big and serious as that, isn't it almost certain to happen to me over a small matter like this?

[pje16]

Oh dear
https://www.coffeegrindguru.com/why-cof ... oil-water/

The ideal temperature for brewing coffee is around 195-205 degrees Fahrenheit (90.5-96 Celcius), which is just below the boiling point of water.

Get your thermometer out

[UncleEbenezer]

Oh dear
https://www.coffeegrindguru.com/why-cof ... oil-water/

The ideal temperature for brewing coffee is around 195-205 degrees Fahrenheit (90.5-96 Celcius), which is just below the boiling point of water.

Get your thermometer out

It's certainly not anywhere near 90 - which would be scalding! Neither is my tea by the time I drink it, though that starts with boiling water.

But what relation the brewing temperature has to the temperature of the brewed coffee emerging is another question, and not one I could answer.

BTW, I heard that criticism back when I had a percolator - which was before my time in Italy when I took to espresso.

[MyNameIsUrl]

Trying to forecast what their arguments might be: are you putting the 'tiny' amount of liquid in a big thick cup which is cooling it down?

[redsturgeon]

Oh dear
https://www.coffeegrindguru.com/why-cof ... oil-water/

The ideal temperature for brewing coffee is around 195-205 degrees Fahrenheit (90.5-96 Celcius), which is just below the boiling point of water.

Get your thermometer out

It's certainly not anywhere near 90 - which would be scalding! Neither is my tea by the time I drink it, though that starts with boiling water.

But what relation the brewing temperature has to the temperature of the brewed coffee emerging is another question, and not one I could answer.

BTW, I heard that criticism back when I had a percolator - which was before my time in Italy when I took to espresso.

What machine is it?

The stuff coming out at the bottoms should be very close to the temperature at which it is brewed, ie at least 90c . My own machine allows the temperature to be adjusted since Mrs RS prefers her coffee hotter than I do.

John

[GrahamPlatt]

”…prefers her coffee hotor that I do.”

John

Yes, I also like to mine with a toddy.

[redsturgeon]

”…prefers her coffee hotor that I do.”

John

Yes, I also like to mine with a toddy.

I corrected my typo now

John

[UncleEbenezer]

Trying to forecast what their arguments might be: are you putting the 'tiny' amount of liquid in a big thick cup which is cooling it down?

I pre-empted that in my very first contact, by mentioning that I'd always pre-heat the cup for espresso. Even with the old espresso machine.

This machine has a separate nozzle for hot (or hottish) water, so I'd use that to heat a cup. The nozzle also supplies steam for frothing milk, though I never tried that function of it: as soon as I thought I might have to return the machine, I decided not to give myself another subsystem I'd have to clean!

What machine is it?

https://www.wayfair.co.uk/kitchenware-t ... g1009.html

[GrahamPlatt]

Oops. Misguided post. Ignore.

[redsturgeon]

Trying to forecast what their arguments might be: are you putting the 'tiny' amount of liquid in a big thick cup which is cooling it down?

I pre-empted that in my very first contact, by mentioning that I'd always pre-heat the cup for espresso. Even with the old espresso machine.

This machine has a separate nozzle for hot (or hottish) water, so I'd use that to heat a cup. The nozzle also supplies steam for frothing milk, though I never tried that function of it: as soon as I thought I might have to return the machine, I decided not to give myself another subsystem I'd have to clean!

What machine is it?

https://www.wayfair.co.uk/kitchenware-t ... g1009.html

Not a machine I have ever seen and potentially a low quality item. To get a decent grinder and espresso machine you need to spend more than that.

I'd just send it straight back.

John

[UncleEbenezer]

What machine is it?

https://www.wayfair.co.uk/kitchenware-t ... g1009.html

Not a machine I have ever seen and potentially a low quality item. To get a decent grinder and espresso machine you need to spend more than that.

I'd just send it straight back.

John

You can spend a lot more for the same thing (pics 4 and 5 showing the innards are truly identical) under a different label: https://www.johnlewis.com/smeg-bcc02-be ... e/p5599733

[redsturgeon]

What machine is it?

https://www.wayfair.co.uk/kitchenware-t ... g1009.html

Not a machine I have ever seen and potentially a low quality item. To get a decent grinder and espresso machine you need to spend more than that.

I'd just send it straight back.

John

You can spend a lot more for the same thing (pics 4 and 5 showing the innards are truly identical) under a different label: https://www.johnlewis.com/smeg-bcc02-be ... e/p5599733

Fair point. It just seems a small price to pay for having a grinder, brewing system and milk steamer in such a small footprint, I can't see how it can be done in a robust and reliable way to be honest.

I have looked at some reviews however and they generally seem to be favourable.

John

[UncleEbenezer]

Another exchange of email this afternoon:

Dear Uncle E,

I hope this email finds you well.

We have not received any videos that were requested from you on numerous occasions.

We will not be able to assist you without these.

Sincerely,

Executive Resolutions Team

**Please note, all correspondence will be addressed within 1-2 business days. Our office hours are 8.00 am - 4.30 pm Monday to Friday. We thank you for your continued patience**

to which I just replied, in rather more intemperate terms than hitherto:

...

As I have already said, I DO NOT HAVE THE CAPABILITY TO MAKE A VIDEO,
NOR WOULD IT SHOW ANYTHING OF INTEREST.
I would suggest this is a totally unreasonable requirement.

I have, however, just googled, and I find a video maker advertising nearby:
(url redacted)
If you will meet his fee, I will ask his availability.

Please note also that I cleaned the machine painstakingly for return before
first contacting you in September. If you require me to use it again, I will not
undertake to re-clean it, beyond emptying used water and grounds.

If you are refusing to honour your published returns policy, that is a clear
breach of contract, and I will have to take advice on further proceedings.

[chas49]

Moderator Message:
As this is the Legal Issues (Practical) board, posts discussing the optimum temperature and other aspects of coffee-making are (IMHO) off-topic. Please stick to the Legal aspects..... (chas49)

[Dod101]

Presumably the distance selling regulations do not apply here but I thought they allowed returns more or less with no questions asked (within a time limit of course). Wayfair I have always found to be a good enough retailer so it is a shame to hear this. Mind you I think £323 for a machine to make a cup of coffee is OTT but that is just me.

Dod

[mc2fool]

You paid with a credit card, right? So you could send it back to them and put in a section 75 chargeback.

[UncleEbenezer]

Presumably the distance selling regulations do not apply here but I thought they allowed returns more or less with no questions asked (within a time limit of course). Wayfair I have always found to be a good enough retailer so it is a shame to hear this. Mind you I think £323 for a machine to make a cup of coffee is OTT but that is just me.

Dod

I've been happy with Wayfair in the past: things I've bought have ranged from excellent to mildly disappointing but acceptable. But then, this is the first time I've tried to return something.

As for the price, I guess balancing your comment with John's, it must be about right Though the old espresso machine (using grounds, not beans) was a little under £100.

[UncleEbenezer]

You paid with a credit card, right? So you could send it back to them and put in a section 75 chargeback.

Thanks.

I thought I'd be out of time for that, but you prompted me to check and it appears I have 120 days.

Or rather, there seem to be two separate things: Section 75, and chargeback (e.g. https://www.ukfinance.org.uk/our-expert ... section-75 ). The 120 days applies to the latter. Ho, hum, more complexity, more research to do