Simple will

[elkay]

Hi,

I know some will say there is no such thing as a "simple" will, but what are your thoughts about this scenario?

My wife's aunt is 76, and has terminal cancer, and we're expecting a few months, or less. She has two siblings in their 70's, who are reasonably healthy.

She owns her own, modest property, but we understand she has some kind of loan on the equity. Other assets are minimal.

She has no will at present, she wants to leave the property to my wife (her niece), and the siblings do not want anything from her estate. They are both in a comfortable position, and have no need for anything from their sister. I believe they also don't want to have to deal with the financial aspects of their sister's passing. There are also another niece and nephew (my wife's cousins), but my wife was much closer to their aunt. She (the aunt) will probably want them to get something, but does not have a good grasp on finances and the implications of the equity loan, i.e. how much she is actually worth.

Her brother has been advised it will cost c. £1000 to get a solicitor to come out to her address to do her will, and they have asked me if I could do it. I have acted as an executor for a more complex situation, and am comfortable that I can do so in this case. The aunt has full confidence in my wife and I (well-placed ) that we will "do the right thing" with regards to ensuring that the niece and nephew, and our own children receive something, and that any items remaining in the house that none of the family want will go to a designated charity. We plan to cover this in an expression of wishes, with the siblings providing support to their sister in putting that together.

Following earlier threads, I have asked Bard to create a draft, to give me a starting point

I, [your name], of [your address], being of sound mind and body, do hereby make, publish and declare this to be my last Will and Testament, hereby revoking all Wills and Codicils by me at any time heretofore made.

I appoint [name of executor] as the executor of this my Will.

I give, devise and bequeath all of my property, real and personal, of whatsoever kind and wherever situated, to my niece, [name of niece].

In the event that my niece predeceases me, then I give devise and bequeath all of my property, real and personal, of whatsoever kind and wherever situated to their surviving child or children, in equal shares.

I have signed this Will this [date] day of [month], [year], at [place].

[Your signature]

Signed, published and declared by the above-named [your name] as and for his last Will and Testament in our presence, and we at his request in his presence and in the presence of each other have hereunto subscribed our names as witnesses, this [date] day of [month], [year].

[Signature of witness]

[Signature of witness]

Because the detail of her finances are not clear, I feel this approach is the best way to handle it. The key factor being the degree of trust that the aunt and her siblings have in us.

Note the reason the aunt does not want a solictor out is not just the cost, but also her health and not being comfortable to meet anyone in her current or worsening condition.

I do have a couple of concerns about the wording provided by Bard....
i) being of sound mind
She has had some mental health issues in the past, primarily due to alcohol abuse, but she has been making her own financial decisions.
ii) and body
her body is definitley not sound!

Any advice would be aprreciated!

regards
elkay

[didds]

TBH id pay the solicitor a grand and get it covered "properly" (obvious caveats aside). But that's just me. The solicitor wont be judgemental if that is what she fears.

There is some sort of will writing trade body with accreditations IIRC - maybe somebody more knowledgeable can help with a web link for them etc,

Meanwhile this may also help wrt self written wills etc
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/famil ... eap-wills/

The section on DIY wills is really interesting.

[didds]

WRT

I do have a couple of concerns about the wording provided by Bard....
i) being of sound mind
She has had some mental health issues in the past, primarily due to alcohol abuse, but she has been making her own financial decisions.
ii) and body
her body is definitley not sound!

i suspect these would be standard words, and whilst IANAL they seem to feature every time I "hear" a will readoing etc on various tv/film/radio stuff (FWTW!)

[elkay]

TBH id pay the solicitor a grand and get it covered "properly" (obvious caveats aside). But that's just me. The solicitor wont be judgemental if that is what she fears.

There is some sort of will writing trade body with accreditations IIRC - maybe somebody more knowledgeable can help with a web link for them etc,

Meanwhile this may also help wrt self written wills etc
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/famil ... eap-wills/

The section on DIY wills is really interesting.

TBH that would be my choice as well. However, while cost might be a consideration, I think the main reason is that in her condition, she and they don't think she would be able to cope with meeting and discussing her affairs with a stranger.

Nevertheless, I am considering pushiing her towards one of the free will services linked to a charity, if I can find one that operates in Northern Ireland and can be dealt with via an intermediary, i.e. me. though getting witnesses will be slightly problematic as well...

Thanks for the MSE link - I should have known to have a look there.

[elkay]

Some conflicting guidance...
- One website says a relative should not be a witness
- Another website does not mention this
- A third website says it is ok if they or their spouse does not benefit

Given the the aunt is reluctant to have visitors, the obvious choice would be her sister and her brother - who are effectively being removed as beneficiaries in the will.

Given that they are not beneficiaries, is there any reason why they could not be witnesses?

TIA
elkay

[stewamax]

In what follows:

- you may want more than one executor
- the trustee need not be the executor, and you may want a 'backup' trustee just in case

Such changes are straightforward. For anything more, you should see a professional.
The 'rules' in Northern Ireland and Scotland are slightly different from those of England and Wales, but I doubt they affect what follows.

Note that wife's aunt must be of sound mind and not under pressure, but her physical infirmity is largely irrelevant providing she can make some mark that is her signature.
The executor can be a beneficiary; it is only the witnesses and their spouses that cannot or - whoops - they lose any inheritance!.

Will of [wife's aunt’s full name]

I revoke previous Wills.

I appoint [name] as executor of this Will. If [he/she] does not prove my Will, [name] is to be my executor.

Should my niece [niece’s name] survive me by thirty days, I give everything I own to her.

Should my niece [niece’s name] not survive me by thirty days, I give everything I own upon trust to my executor as trustee. My trustee will divide the proceeds equally between the children of my niece [niece’s name] who reach the age of eighteen when they do so.

Signed:
[wife's aunt]
Print full name
Address:

Signed by [wife's aunt] in our presence and by us in hers

Signed:
[witness 1]
Print full name
Address:

Signed:
[witness 2]
Print full name
Address:

Date:

[stewamax]

As an addendum to my last post, OP doesn't mention where wife's aunt lives, but the 'rules' in Northern Ireland and Scotland are slightly different from those of England and Wales. In Scotland for example, the person making the Will must sign at the foot of each page of a multi-page Will (this one won't be!), and witnesses need to include their occupation (in England and Wales all that is strictly necessary is their signatures, but giving their names and addresses is good practice)

[AJC5001]

You could try the Which? service - they seem to cover Northern Ireland and offer a review of what the draft will says - seehttps://whichwills.which.co.uk/wills/

"Wills made easy
Write your will, right here, right now. You can even get it reviewed by our specialists to make sure it’s completed correctly."

HTH

Adrian

[Gersemi]

I would think that the danger here is that the other nephew and niece suspect undue pressure if you have written the will to make yourself excutor and your wife the main (sole?) beneficiary. I would have thought it much safer to get it professionally written to provide reassurance that she is competent to make a will. Are they the children of one of the siblings or of another (now deceased) sibling?

[Dod101]

I would think that the danger here is that the other nephew and niece suspect undue pressure if you have written the will to make yourself excutor and your wife the main (sole?) beneficiary. I would have thought it much safer to get it professionally written to provide reassurance that she is competent to make a will. Are they the children of one of the siblings or of another (now deceased) sibling?

I was about to say exactly that. Apart from the complications of getting the wording of any Will in clear and unambiguous terms, you are much too close to the intended main beneficiary to take any part in setting up the Will. You will be leaving yourself open to challenge by any aggrieved party. If I were you by all means help to get a clear idea of the finances but having done that, leave a copy for the solicitor and then keep well clear and make sure that you are seen to be playing no part in the matter. Especially if there is any suggestion that the aunt may not even be of sound mind. You must leave that for the judgement of a solicitor. As to the choice of executor, well at a push you might accept that but really despite what may simply be a wish to be helpful, it is actually none of your business. That is the truth of the matter and best that you treat the matter that way.

Dod

[stewamax]

I would think that the danger here is that the other nephew and niece suspect undue pressure if you have written the will to make yourself excutor and your wife the main (sole?) beneficiary. I would have thought it much safer to get it professionally written to provide reassurance that she is competent to make a will.

I understand your sentiments, but two points:
- it is very common for one spouse to make a Will with the other as executor and main beneficiary
- if there is doubt about whether wife's aunt is mentally competent to make a Will, the opinion of a medical professional should be sought and documented. A solicitor has an unbiased professional viewpoint, but in this instance whether or not the Will is professionally written is irrelevant to assessing her mental competence. It is a common problem when, for example, those who need to set up a lifetime power of attorney may have left it a bit too late.

<hobbyhorse>
Professionals and especially amateurs should write Wills in plain English as far as is legally valid. Before someone signs their Will they should understand what they are signing. Phrases like 'devise and bequeath' mean little to the average Joe, and the latter certainly won't know the difference.
</hobbyhorse>

[elkay]

Thanks for the feedback folks, particularly stewmax.

I appreciate the comments regarding my closeness to the main beneficiary, and it is a consideration. Though the siblings are keen that her wishes that have been expressed for years are carried out, which would help with any problems with objections to the will - though I don't expect any.

The other niece & nephew are the children of a deceased sibling, and have had much less interaction with the aunt. Nevertheless, my wife's intention would be to give them a significant share of the proceeds - much more than they would be likely to get if they contested.

Nevertheless, she has been taken into hospital again overnight, and my main concern is that she is of sound mind, and seen to be, when it comes to signing a will. We may not get the opportunity to sort a will.

Note that the main reason for getting a will in place is to take the hassle away from the siblings, who would want me to handle the affairs, but I wouldn't have the authority to do so. I don't know how much hassle and how long it takes to get letters of administration, and can the siblings get these and assign authority to me?

Thanks all
elkay

[stewamax]

If at all possible, it is so much better to have a simple (but legal) Will signed and witnessed.

If wife’s aunt is still in hospital, explain the problem to the charge nurse, ward manager or ward consultant. If she is in a geriatric ward, specialist oncology ward or end-of-life ward, the medical staff will not be unfamiliar with this issue and may be willing to help, especially with establishing whether the patient is of sufficiently sound mind and under no pressure. If both are true, they may not be allowed to document this for you, but it should be recorded in the patient’s record and, if she is discharged before death, the discharge document that you will receive.

Since the patient may get flustered if several unfamiliar faces turn up, you may be able to get medical staff to witness the Will. Remember that 'witnessing' is simply attesting that the patient has signed freely in their presence and nothing else: witnesses do not need to read or understand the contents of the Will.

[melonfool]

Why does someone need to go to her house? I'm on my third will and never met anyone who prepared them for me - all done by phone and email. Up to me to get the signatures of course.

Last one cost c£280 I think. Same woman did my mum's about five years later and mum never met her either.

I would agree that you ought to divvy the estate between those she wishes to inherit, it doesn't matter what the quantum is if you do it by proportion:

1) niece a 80%
2) niece b 10%
3) nephew 10%

like that. Always use full names, always put their address, and maybe even DOB to be sure, though this probably won't matter given the proximity of the need.

Alternatively - she dies intestate, siblings inherit, you apply to be administrator, everyone else steps back and you do it, sibs vary the '[intestate] will to what they think she wanted. Skip the will writing step entirely.

Mel

[elkay]

Just an update folks...and maybe another question or 2

So I prepared a basic will, along the lines of stewamax suggestions, and took it to the hospital on Saturday. Unfortunately the hospital didn't play ball. It being the weekend was possibly part of the problem. I was simply asking that they could confirm that the aunt was mentally capable of signing the will. The person in charge of the ward referred it to "Patient Flow", and someone arrived to tell us that there should be legal counsel present, family should be present, and it needed a consultant to confirm our mental state - who wouldn't be available until Monday. I know that none of these should be a showstopper... Meanwhile, the strongest words out of the aunt all weekend was "I know what I'm doing, I want to sign the will".

We didn't make an issue of it:
- concerned about the aunt and her sister getting stressed out
- the expectation was that she would be transferred to a Marie Curie hospice, where they would be able to help us out
- worst case is as melonfool says, we could deal with the intestate situation.

And the worst case became reality, as she deteriorated quickly on Monday and passed away in the early hours of Tuesday morning. At that stage it was a relief, as it was quite disturbing for the siblings.

So that brings me to the questions...
1. How can I get authority to speak to banks etc without the next of kin present? The applicate for Grant of Letters of Administration appears to be similar to applying for probate - but we need information from the banks before we can complete the application. I have made a couple of calls with her sister present, but it was difficult with the sister talking in my ear whilst I was trying to listen to the third party, and generally making the task more difficult.
2. When informed, banks will freeze the deceased's bank account, because there is a loan secured against property, it won't be as simple as the bank distributing the funds to the next of kin. We won't want any DDs to come out (separate home insurance will be taken out), but there is money due to reach one of the accounts from the bank of her deceased husband, and we wouldn't want this returned as it would cause further headaches.

Thanks for assistance so far.
elkay

[genou]

We won't want any DDs to come out (separate home insurance will be taken out), but there is money due to reach one of the accounts from the bank of her deceased husband, and we wouldn't want this returned as it would cause further headaches.


elkay

My condolences. You could contact the existing insurers. Few insist in coming off-risk immediately, and will give reasonable grace periods. How long before the husband transfer arrives, because you can't have the account incoming only, as I'm sure you know.

[Clitheroekid]

1. How can I get authority to speak to banks etc without the next of kin present? The applicate for Grant of Letters of Administration appears to be similar to applying for probate - but we need information from the banks before we can complete the application. I have made a couple of calls with her sister present, but it was difficult with the sister talking in my ear whilst I was trying to listen to the third party, and generally making the task more difficult.

I should firstly say that I normally deal with this process in England, but although the law in Northern Ireland is slightly different the basics are the same.

It can be more difficult for a proposed administrator to obtain information than an executor. This is because where there's a Will the executor's authority derives from the Will, not from the grant of probate. Consequently, an executor is entitled as of right to require banks to supply information. (I'm referring to `banks' as it's easier, but the same applies to all financial institutions where the deceased has assets).

However, a proposed administrator has no legal authority at all unless and until they are confirmed as administrator by the court. This can sometimes make banks more reluctant to supply information.

It's likely to be even more difficult in your case, because as things stand you have no right to apply for letters of administration. The only people who are entitled to do so are your aunt's two siblings (I'm assuming she had no children and that her parents are both dead).

They can `renounce' their right to make the application itself by signing a formal renunciation. However, at this preliminary stage of obtaining information I would think it's going to be very difficult to persuade banks to supply the necessary information to anyone other than the siblings themselves.

One way round this would be for one of the siblings to grant you a power of attorney to act on their behalf. However, you would still need to prove the sibling's identity before the banks would recognise the POA.

I would therefore think that the easiest solution would be just to apply for the information in the name of one of the siblings, preferably one that's computer literate, so as to avoid the hassle and delay of using the post.

One thing that the banks will definitely require before they release information to anyone is the death certificate, or at least information from it, and I assume you won't yet have this.

2. When informed, banks will freeze the deceased's bank account, because there is a loan secured against property, it won't be as simple as the bank distributing the funds to the next of kin. We won't want any DDs to come out (separate home insurance will be taken out), but there is money due to reach one of the accounts from the bank of her deceased husband, and we wouldn't want this returned as it would cause further headaches.

I can't see how banks could `distribute the funds to the next of kin' where there's no Will, as how would they know who was entitled to the money? The sensible thing would therefore be just to leave the accounts alone until you obtain the grant. You must, of course, notify the company that made the loan, who will have their own procedures for dealing with the death of a borrower.

This is a useful service that I use, though I don't know if it extends to Northern Ireland - https://www.deathnotificationservice.co.uk/ For the benefit of other Fools there's also a very helpful service called `Tell Us Once', which automatically notifies all relevant government departments - https://www.gov.uk/after-a-death/organi ... ll-us-once - but that unfortunately does not extend to Northern Ireland. However, there's a useful reminder page here - https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/wh ... bout-death

[stewamax]

This area is something of a Catch-22 because you can’t apply for Letters of Administration (or Probate) without paying HMRC any inheritance tax due, and you can’t properly assess the value of an estate for inheritance tax without knowing the contents of bank accounts, although OP believes that the only asset of significant value is the house.
If applying for Letters of Administration, there is now no need to contact HMRC at all if the estate is an exempt ‘excepted’ estate: one where no IHT is payable often because the surviving spouse gets all or most. HMRC have a useful online IHT value calculator, and for exempt ‘excepted’ estates, the output of this calculator can be sent as ’proof’ with the application for Letters of Administration.
Letters of Administration are assigned to the closest living relative, which in OP’s case will not be him; see CK’s detailed reply (above). But there is an inheritance “calculator” for this as well (see https://www.gov.uk/inherits-someone-dies-without-will).

Banks will usually release details of account balances if you provide a death certificate and some credible evidence that you are entitled to have this information. If a bank quibbles – which is more likely if you are applying for Letters of Administration than if you are (say) the sole executor named in the Will, you may need a solicitor to act as trusted intermediary.
You then also need part of this information when applying for Letters of Administration – specifically the balances in those accounts that are in the deceased’s sole name (i.e. not joint accounts). And, to reiterate, the Letters of Administration and Probate Registry (HM Courts & Tribunals Service) do check with HMRC that at least some of any outstanding IHT has been paid (unless given evidence that the estate is exempt), and they routinely bounce any application where this isn’t so.

Finally, OP tried his level best under very difficult circumstances and I sincerely hope this is appreciated by his extended family.

[elkay]

Thanks to both CK and stewamax for their comprehensive replies. The family do indeed appreciate my efforts, and in turn I really appreciate the help that I can get here.

....
I would therefore think that the easiest solution would be just to apply for the information in the name of one of the siblings, preferably one that's computer literate, so as to avoid the hassle and delay of using the post.
...
One thing that the banks will definitely require before they release information to anyone is the death certificate, or at least information from it, and I assume you won't yet have this.
---

This is the route I have started down, though there is no computer literacy in the family. The death certificates have already arrived, it seems the Registrars are on top of things. BT, Sky and Firmus (Gas) have all been willing to take instruction from me, as long as I passed on the sister's details for any correspondence & refunds (including 1608m3 of gas credit!*). I think it will become more difficult with the financial organisations, where I will probably have to accompany the sister to local branches.

I can't see how banks could `distribute the funds to the next of kin' where there's no Will, as how would they know who was entitled to the money?

When another sister died a few months ago, the banks involved were happy to release funds that were within a specified limit to the next of kin, with an indemnity form completed by the NOK. However in this case, different banks are involved, and larger funds.

The sensible thing would therefore be just to leave the accounts alone until you obtain the grant. You must, of course, notify the company that made the loan, who will have their own procedures for dealing with the death of a borrower.

That was my initial thought. Though the complication here is that the equity loan is from her main bank, where most of her funds reside - and more importantly, where the funds from her deceased husband are due to arrive any day now. The bank in question say that once they have been notified, they will return any funds that arrive to source, and sorting that out would be another whole world of pain. Just checking the dates for my MIL, if it has followed the same timescales, then the funds should be there already. But we won't know until we see the bank statements, probably at the beginning of September. A further complication is that one of the life insurance policies is with a member of the banking group, so if we inform them, they will inform the bank...

This is a useful service that I use, though I don't know if it extends to Northern Ireland - https://www.deathnotificationservice.co.uk/ For the benefit of other Fools there's also a very helpful service called `Tell Us Once', which automatically notifies all relevant government departments - https://www.gov.uk/after-a-death/organi ... ll-us-once - but that unfortunately does not extend to Northern Ireland. However, there's a useful reminder page here - https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/wh ... bout-death

It's strange that the 'Tell us Once' service doesn't work in NI, as when my MIL passed away, I informed the Housing Executive (NI social housing), they informed the relevant government departments. But I have been following the advice on that page. I think the death notification service might work for Northern Ireland, as many of the organisations listed operate here. However, I won't be using it, I prefer to have more control on when they are informed.

This area is something of a Catch-22 because you can’t apply for Letters of Administration (or Probate) without paying HMRC any inheritance tax due, and you can’t properly assess the value of an estate for inheritance tax without knowing the contents of bank accounts...

This is the bit that bugs me most, I think I have seen it mentioned in previous threads, and was one of the reasons I was pushing the family to get a will sorted. What do the PTB think we can do? I know that the value of the estate won't be anywhere near the IHT threshold, but we don't have figures to provide as evidence. We'll see how understanding the banks are, and if they don't play ball, we will have to find a helpful local solicitor. We have one for conveyancing, if he can't help hopefully he will have a colleague that can.

Thanks again for the help, it does give me hope that I can untangle this mess.
elkay

* I mentioned the gas credit - I don't use gas myself so don't how much this is, but I know it's a lot. Apparently the gas company contacted the local shop where she tops up her card to tell them not to let her top up any more.
It saddens me the state of her finances, knowing that there are so many elderly people out there that are probably in a similar situation. To date I have found
- 3 active home insurance policies (2 with the same company), the cost of which is in total about 7x as much as I pay.
- 14 life insurance policies, albeit some are low value. I am concerned that she may have taken out some after she was diagnosed with cancer, and possibly didn't inform them.
- 11 DDs to charities, albeit low value
- Correspondence indicating she was sucked in to commemorative coin deals, where you buy 1, and then they force sell you additional ones from the collection.
The siblings did tell her many times over the years to sort out her finances, but she was independent and stubborn. She did have mental health problems, and it appears that the equity loan on her property was due to sruggling with credit card and personal loan payments. But it's difficult to know how the situation could have been prevented.