Power of Attorney and Joint Accounts

[Lootman]

My children hold a power of attorney (POA) - actually a pre-2007 EPA - that enables them to act on my behalf where there is a need. They have never needed to so far.

All my bank and investment accounts are currently in my sole name. Would their POA still work if I added another person to my accounts, making them joint accounts? There is no POA for the added joint tenant.

My idea here is to allow such accounts to pass to the joint tenant without probate, upon my death. But would that affect the ability of my children to operate my accounts using their POA whilst I am still alive, since they would no longer be solely my accounts and assets?

[modellingman]

Interesting question, to which I don't have a definitive legal answer.

I suspect the answer is that it should not affect the operation of a joint account. The attorney acts on your behalf in the same way that you would be able to if you were not incapacitated in some way (the purpose of an EPA).

Whether the idiot institutions will interpret whatever turns out to be the true legal position correctly is another matter, though. Been there!

Perhaps the insurance against this (not without its own risks) is to find a way of making the security credentials for accessing your accounts available to your attorneys so that they are able to act on your behalf without troubling the institutions involved with the exact facts of the matter.

modellingman

[Lootman]

Interesting question, to which I don't have a definitive legal answer.

I suspect the answer is that it should not affect the operation of a joint account. The attorney acts on your behalf in the same way that you would be able to if you were not incapacitated in some way (the purpose of an EPA).

Whether the idiot institutions will interpret whatever turns out to be the true legal position correctly is another matter, though. Been there!

Perhaps the insurance against this (not without its own risks) is to find a way of making the security credentials for accessing your accounts available to your attorneys so that they are able to act on your behalf without troubling the institutions involved with the exact facts of the matter.

modellingman

Thank you for that response and it seems very reasonable.

And yes, I had already thought of making my PINs and passwords available to them. Although with 2FA I would also have to make my phone available as well!

[richfool]

My children hold a power of attorney (POA) - actually a pre-2007 EPA - that enables them to act on my behalf where there is a need. They have never needed to so far.

All my bank and investment accounts are currently in my sole name. Would their POA still work if I added another person to my accounts, making them joint accounts? There is no POA for the added joint tenant.

My idea here is to allow such accounts to pass to the joint tenant without probate, upon my death. But would that affect the ability of my children to operate my accounts using their POA whilst I am still alive, since they would no longer be solely my accounts and assets?

Sorry, I don't know the answer to your question, but the thought occurs to me, that the other (proposed) joint account holder would be able to make transactions, effectively on your behalf, if you weren't able to do so, assuming that they were physically and mentally able to do so.

[1nvest]

My children hold a power of attorney (POA) - actually a pre-2007 EPA - that enables them to act on my behalf where there is a need. They have never needed to so far.

All my bank and investment accounts are currently in my sole name. Would their POA still work if I added another person to my accounts, making them joint accounts? There is no POA for the added joint tenant.

My idea here is to allow such accounts to pass to the joint tenant without probate, upon my death. But would that affect the ability of my children to operate my accounts using their POA whilst I am still alive, since they would no longer be solely my accounts and assets?

Your EPA has already been activated? Three relatives correctly/officially notified ....etc. more usually done as you are losing or have lost capacity. Otherwise is just a piece of paper, unregistered, not actually activated.

I've no authority in such matters at all, but layman guess that your POA would only have authority over your half of a account moved into joint names as I believe moving a account from sole to joint is considered as a equal division - gifting of half of the account value of sorts. Which may still leave your estate value at a level where probate was mandated, i.e. gifts only become excluded from your estate after seven years.

No idea how banks actually manage that, I guess either those with POA or the joint holder could move/withdraw all of the funds. HMRC's CONNECT system however I suspect would pick up on that as it increasingly monitors deeper into each individuals activities. Apparently now has over 55 billion records so approaching 1000 items of data for each and every soul in the UK. And they have recently pushed banks to report each/any 'suspicious activity' ... or else risk losing their licence, such that banks are tending to flag all activities/transactions to add to the existing data that's being collected by the state. More recent law changes also enable them to record your internet activities as well. Such as me posting, you reading this post.

Nice to live in a free world where you're monitored everywhere you go, have all your actions tracked, and where they might even AI your thoughts/beliefs. When others no where all 'your' money is, its no longer yours, its just a loan, open to be confiscated at any time by the lender. Yet in the main we've slept walked into allowing it to happen, more usually on the basis that the powers were needed in order to catch criminals. But to a extent where nowadays each/anyone could be deemed to be a criminal such is the depth/breadth of the civil and financial (HMRC tax law book) laws nowadays. So the ultimate solution was everyone was branded a criminal (one way or another), living in a Open Prison, with the option to selectively lock up the more extreme cases or whoever else they might choose. All implemented/imposed with hardly a murmur of resistance/complaint.

[Clitheroekid]

Your EPA has already been activated? Three relatives correctly/officially notified ....etc. more usually done as you are losing or have lost capacity. Otherwise is just a piece of paper, unregistered, not actually activated.

You've misunderstood the nature of an EPA. It can be used as soon as it's executed, and unlike an LPA there is no need to register it.

However, if the donor loses capacity then it must be registered in order for it to be valid. It's at that stage that the notice to relatives is given.

[1nvest]

Your EPA has already been activated? Three relatives correctly/officially notified ....etc. more usually done as you are losing or have lost capacity. Otherwise is just a piece of paper, unregistered, not actually activated.

You've misunderstood the nature of an EPA. It can be used as soon as it's executed, and unlike an LPA there is no need to register it.

However, if the donor loses capacity then it must be registered in order for it to be valid. It's at that stage that the notice to relatives is given.

That's really useful for me personally. Thanks. Mother signed one back in 2000 that has since been locked away in the family safe, and where more recently (year+) she's developed dementia, largely as a consequence of being locked-up for 14 days mandatory isolation period when she had a fall back in Covid days and contracted Covid within days of entering hospital for that fall (hip surgery). The trauma/anxiety of that lock-up literally blew her mind, constant distress/tears for a 90 year old and where I was refused the option to have her moved elsewhere - and where that lock-up distress induced vascular dementia. I really thought I'd lost her at that time as it was all new back then, yet Covid wise she barely even had a snivel.

People moan about China and its human rights issues, however with first hand experiences of seeing how the UK intentionally exported Covid into care homes, and locked up 90 year olds into solitary confinement !!! As for state monitoring and CONNECT is developing into a extreme. With banks now transitioning to feeding all transactions into CONNECT (or otherwise under risk of having their licence revoked for failing to report suspicious transactions - making it easiest/best for banks to flag all transactions), and alongside facial, number plate recognition/tracking, online activities, geolocation tracking etc. all introduced largely via the back-door !!! Way too much power/control over others, where punishments for the likes of you don't fit within the required parameters, such as having your bank accounts closed because you voted for Brexit/whatever, are already beginning to show through. Not the legacy I would have preferred to pass-on to the next generation.

Moderator Message:
The discussion about banks reporting activity is off-topic for this board. Please do not continue this here. Thanks (chas49)

[Lootman]

Your EPA has already been activated? Three relatives correctly/officially notified ....etc. more usually done as you are losing or have lost capacity. Otherwise is just a piece of paper, unregistered, not actually activated.

You've misunderstood the nature of an EPA. It can be used as soon as it's executed, and unlike an LPA there is no need to register it.

However, if the donor loses capacity then it must be registered in order for it to be valid. It's at that stage that the notice to relatives is given.

Yes, I held an EPA for my mother. I never registered it and her bank was happy to grant me access to and usage of her bank account upon presenting the paperwork to them.

She did lose capacity but it was very gradually over a number of years, so there was no event that triggered a need for registration, and I just continued to use it. When she did finally and undeniably lose capacity (she had a stroke) the issue was moot anyway as she died 2 weeks later, at which point the EPA was invalid anyway.

[1nvest]

You've misunderstood the nature of an EPA. It can be used as soon as it's executed, and unlike an LPA there is no need to register it.

However, if the donor loses capacity then it must be registered in order for it to be valid. It's at that stage that the notice to relatives is given.

Yes, I held an EPA for my mother. I never registered it and her bank was happy to grant me access to and usage of her bank account upon presenting the paperwork to them.

She did lose capacity but it was very gradually over a number of years, so there was no event that triggered a need for registration, and I just continued to use it. When she did finally and undeniably lose capacity (she had a stroke) the issue was moot anyway as she died 2 weeks later, at which point the EPA was invalid anyway.

Most of our main accounts are in joint names. My father passed a year or so prior to the financial crisis at which time we changed account names to be both me and mum rather than mum/dad, and shifted cash around to across a number of different banks (building societies). So I've not even had to produce the EPA.

[chas49]

Moderator Message:
The discussion about banks reporting activity is off-topic for this board. Please do not continue this here. Thanks (chas49)

[genou]

Most of our main accounts are in joint names. My father passed a year or so prior to the financial crisis at which time we changed account names to be both me and mum rather than mum/dad, and shifted cash around to across a number of different banks (building societies). So I've not even had to produce the EPA.

It's worth noting that the concept of an administrative joint account exists - i.e. only one of the joint holders is beneficial owner, and all interest arising is due to, and taxable on, that owner. And all the cash is within their estate. The other named on the account is for administrative convenience.

It can bite if the bank cocks it up - after my mother died I got an HMRC query on my tax return because the Halifax returned all the interest credited to date of death to HMRC as mine ( being the only name on the account at the end of the tax year ). Happily I had already returned the interest and capital on my mother's returns, so they went away on one exchange of letters.