Barred from funeral service?

[NomoneyNohoney]

There was a post on Reddit which included this sentence, "Half sister has messaged me weeks after he passed to say "her dad" has died and my mum and I won't be welcome at the funeral because she wants nothing to do with me."

This sparked a conversation about, "it's public so you can go," "it's paid for by someone so they have the right to exclude you" and "you can go to the funeral but the wake is private and you can be excluded."

DAK what the simple facts are? I had an ex girlfriend who died, and despite her family and I being at loggerheads, I always intended to go to the funeral service and cremation, except that sadly I wasn't in the country at the time, and didn't find out till afterwards. That's why I'm curious retrospectively.

[Dod101]

If you attend a funeral service it is to pay your respects to the deceased not to a relative. Of course said relative could post heavies at the entrance to stop you entering but that seems a little unlikely in most cases.

I do not think that there are ‘simple facts’ but if you attend the crematorium or the burial service I do not see that you are upsetting anyone and if you are? No need to hang around. Just attend and then leave unless of course it is advertised as private burial or whatever. Then I would respect that.

Dod

[stewamax]

It is unclear from OP whether 'funeral' would be in church.
If so, and it was C of E, one could rephrase the question as "who can allow or bar me from entering church premises". The legal answer would normally be:
- one of the churchwardens, the vicar's/rector's warden', who acts on their behalf, or the incumbent him/herself
- the other churchwarden, the 'people's warden', who acts on behalf of the parish's parishioners, but in practice represents the Parochial Church Council (aka Vestry).

If it were known in advance that there would be controversy or even a disturbance in (C of E) church or grounds, the churchwardens would usually take advice from the Diocesan Chancellor, a lawyer who acts on behalf of the Bishop. And if an untoward act then took place, the churchwardens can (little known fact!) commit the malefactor to magistrates court where a statutory fine can be imposed.

Local authority (and private) cemeteries and crematoria will have their own rules.

[NomoneyNohoney]

My ex was cremated, so the service would have been in the chapel at the crematorium.

[stewamax]

I asked, because it is very common for a funeral service to be held in church followed immediately by a cremation attended by just close family. And even if, as is also common, the priest who conducted the service in church then also goes to the crematorium, he/she has no say in who can or cannot attend the final 'part'.
[C of E funeral services have two parts: the 'main' part and, at the end, the committal (the 'ashes to ashes' final part) which was originally written for use at the graveside.]
The late Queen's funeral process was a classic (if extreme for normal mortals) example: Funeral service in Westminster Abbey followed by the lower-key Committal in Windsor.

One ceremony from which people cannot legally be barred - assuming that there is room - is a Register Office wedding.
And, in C of E law, the public (or parishioners at least) have unhindered access to a church wedding because the celebrant has to ask those present if there is any reason in law why the happy couple may not marry, and because the celebrant is acting as Registrar.

[Lootman]

It is unclear from OP whether 'funeral' would be in church. If so, and it was C of E, one could rephrase the question as "who can allow or bar me from entering church premises". The legal answer would normally be:
- one of the churchwardens, the vicar's/rector's warden', who acts on their behalf, or the incumbent him/herself
- the other churchwarden, the 'people's warden', who acts on behalf of the parish's parishioners, but in practice represents the Parochial Church Council (aka Vestry).

A friend of ours likes to visit old churches. Her main interest is architectural and historical, although she is a Christian.

Some of the grander churches and cathedrals are set up so that visitors are supposed to pay to enter. Exeter Cathedral is one such. But she never pays, instead informing the gatekeeper that she "just wants to enter in order to pray". It appears to work every time, which rather supports the idea that churches will admit you if you look sincere or devout. They are supposed to be public buildings where all are welcome, after all.

[Dod101]

It is unclear from OP whether 'funeral' would be in church. If so, and it was C of E, one could rephrase the question as "who can allow or bar me from entering church premises". The legal answer would normally be:
- one of the churchwardens, the vicar's/rector's warden', who acts on their behalf, or the incumbent him/herself
- the other churchwarden, the 'people's warden', who acts on behalf of the parish's parishioners, but in practice represents the Parochial Church Council (aka Vestry).

A friend of ours likes to visit old churches. Her main interest is architectural and historical, although she is a Christian.

Some of the grander churches and cathedrals are set up so that visitors are supposed to pay to enter. Exeter Cathedral is one such. But she never pays, instead informing the gatekeeper that she "just wants to enter in order to pray". It appears to work every time, which rather supports the idea that churches will admit you if you look sincere or devout. They are supposed to be public buildings where all are welcome, after all.

But are not maintained by fresh air. Your friend presumably does not understand that. I am glad that she is not turned away if she refuses to pay but she does not appear to have much generosity of spirit.

Dod

[stewamax]

But are not maintained by fresh air. Your friend presumably does not understand that. I am glad that she is not turned away if she refuses to pay but she does not appear to have much generosity of spirit.

Exactly.
Perhaps Lootman's concept of a 'public building' is the US one where such a place is paid for by the state (local State or Fed).
The nearest UK version is a 'public space' (as in e.g. the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014) which applies not just to publicly owned area such as the highway but to private places openly accessible to the public, for example a Tesco car park or public leisure park, but during their opening hours but not when they are shut. The C of E has its own internal and often arcane laws (that is why it needs is a Diocesan Chancellor lawyer to interpret them) plus, in England anyway, state laws that do not apply to things outside the church.
UK churches and cathedrals are not state-funded. Where does Lootman's friend think they get their care and maintenance money from? It certainly isn't just from the collections and donations at weekday services; cathedral congregations for e.g. weekday Evensong outside the tourist season are often just a handful.

[stewamax]

... and just to round things off...
In principle, the public spaces definition applies to C of E churches and cathedrals as well, but churchwardens (and the Dean and Chapter for cathedrals) can impose rules of entry, can charge, and even bar you, although in practice anyone of any religious persuasion (or none) and dressed anyhow and whether with £££ or none is free to attend any service, including funerals; although in eleven days time, sidesmen and vergers will be routinely ejecting the disorderly drunks who turn up at midnight mass for 'fun'.

But anyone who wants to visit to marvel at the architecture or listen to some of the exceptional choirs practising should be prepared to pay what they can afford for their pleasure. Is that so unreasonable? Lootman's friend as acting as a cheapskate.

[Lootman]

But are not maintained by fresh air. Your friend presumably does not understand that. I am glad that she is not turned away if she refuses to pay but she does not appear to have much generosity of spirit.

Exactly. Perhaps Lootman's concept of a 'public building' is the US one where such a place is paid for by the state (local State or Fed).
The nearest UK version is a 'public space' (as in e.g. the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014) which applies not just to publicly owned area such as the highway but to private places openly accessible to the public, for example a Tesco car park or public leisure park, but during their opening hours but not when they are shut. The C of E has its own internal and often arcane laws (that is why it needs is a Diocesan Chancellor lawyer to interpret them) plus, in England anyway, state laws that do not apply to things outside the church.

UK churches and cathedrals are not state-funded. Where does Lootman's friend think they get their care and maintenance money from? It certainly isn't just from the collections and donations at weekday services; cathedral congregations for e.g. weekday Evensong outside the tourist season are often just a handful.

Could you guys have missed the point any more? I was not offering the anecdote as a moral quandary. Much less endorsing her approach. Nor am I interested in discussing the ethics pro and con.

The purpose was simply to show that churches have an open door policy. Or at least most do - St. Paul's is run these days like a tourist attraction and probably westminster abbey too. I do not visit churches much but whenever I have done, the door was not locked and nobody was acting as gatekeeper. A fortiori if there is a service going on. You just walk in.

[BigB]

Exactly. Perhaps Lootman's concept of a 'public building' is the US one where such a place is paid for by the state (local State or Fed).
The nearest UK version is a 'public space' (as in e.g. the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014) which applies not just to publicly owned area such as the highway but to private places openly accessible to the public, for example a Tesco car park or public leisure park, but during their opening hours but not when they are shut. The C of E has its own internal and often arcane laws (that is why it needs is a Diocesan Chancellor lawyer to interpret them) plus, in England anyway, state laws that do not apply to things outside the church.

UK churches and cathedrals are not state-funded. Where does Lootman's friend think they get their care and maintenance money from? It certainly isn't just from the collections and donations at weekday services; cathedral congregations for e.g. weekday Evensong outside the tourist season are often just a handful.

Could you guys have missed the point any more? I was not offering the anecdote as a moral quandary. Much less endorsing her approach. Nor am I interested in discussing the ethics pro and con.

The purpose was simply to show that churches have an open door policy. Or at least most do - St. Paul's is run these days like a tourist attraction and probably westminster abbey too. I do not visit churches much but whenever I have done, the door was not locked and nobody was acting as gatekeeper. A fortiori if there is a service going on. You just walk in.

I know CoE will probably be the majority UK religious funeral host, but there are numerous others, and certainly in the Catholic world routine masses will become funeral masses as the need arises. So a punter may turn up for their routine Friday morning mass and it could then turn out to be someone's funeral mass. No-one unwelcome.

I've been at large catholic funerals in Ireland where people at the church decide to go on to the wake, and it could be a sit down meal in some cases at a restaurant, easily chargeable at 30-40 EUR a head !

[Lootman]

Could you guys have missed the point any more? I was not offering the anecdote as a moral quandary. Much less endorsing her approach. Nor am I interested in discussing the ethics pro and con.

The purpose was simply to show that churches have an open door policy. Or at least most do - St. Paul's is run these days like a tourist attraction and probably westminster abbey too. I do not visit churches much but whenever I have done, the door was not locked and nobody was acting as gatekeeper. A fortiori if there is a service going on. You just walk in.

I know CoE will probably be the majority UK religious funeral host, but there are numerous others, and certainly in the Catholic world routine masses will become funeral masses as the need arises. So a punter may turn up for their routine Friday morning mass and it could then turn out to be someone's funeral mass. No-one unwelcome.

I've been at large catholic funerals in Ireland where people at the church decide to go on to the wake, and it could be a sit down meal in some cases at a restaurant, easily chargeable at 30-40 EUR a head !

Yeah I suspect that the more exotic and esoteric the church, the more quirky and restrictive the admission policy. So blagging your way into a church may well not work with a Mormon or Jehovah's witness chapel. And you might not want to try it at a mosque. Some may be only for true believers. But CofE and Catholic locations should be fine. And my local Methodist meeting house has a sign that says "All are welcome here".

[didds]

Some of the grander churches and cathedrals are set up so that visitors are supposed to pay to enter. Exeter Cathedral is one such. But she never pays, instead informing the gatekeeper that she "just wants to enter in order to pray". It appears to work every time, which rather supports the idea that churches will admit you if you look sincere or devout. They are supposed to be public buildings where all are welcome, after all.

A friend was visiting York recently and i suggested attending Evensong to listen to the choral singing.

They told me that the Minster was charging £16 for the privilege of attending Evensong, an actual service.

That cant be correct surely - my chum must have got some wires crossed?

[stewamax]

A friend was visiting York recently and i suggested attending Evensong to listen to the choral singing. They told me that the Minster was charging £16 for the privilege of attending Evensong, an actual service. That cant be correct surely - my chum must have got some wires crossed?

£16 is the admission price for those wanting to look around.
I haven't been there this year, but from around 30 minutes before a service, it was customary for sidesmen/women near the door to ask if you have come for the service - and if so you simply walk in.

It is, incidentally, also customary for congregants for Evensong to sit in the unoccupied parts of the choir stalls rather than the nave. There is normally no collection taken but there will be Gift Aid envelopes in the stalls for you to fill in, insert your donation, and put it in the donations box as you go out.
Given the acerbic tenor of my comments earlier in this thread, it is probably unnecessary for me to add that if anyone attends Evensong solely to hear the choir, that they should give a £16 donation!