The Lemon Fool

This relates to a previous thread, but I'll recap here:
1. Party P1 dies, with a possibly valid will, with estate split equally to 3 named beneficiaries - niece, nephew, and spouse (P2). Niece & nephew named as executors, however niece informed spouse that she should claim the funds in question (c.£20K) from the bank in question - we were led to believe that there was an issue with the will and it was not valid, though this is hearsay. She possibly didn't want the hassle.
2. I assisted P2 in completing forms for the bank in question, with the presumption that there was no valid will. P2 fully intended to distribute the funds as per the possibly invalid will.
3. The bank accepted the forms and informed P2 that payment was being processed.
4. P2 passed away before the funds reached P2's account. The recipient bank returned the funds to the originating bank.
5. I contacted the bank, and explained the situation, expecting the payment to be resent to the P2 representatives accounts. instead, they contacted the person that had registered the death of P1 (the niece), and asked her if there was a will. They then informed me that the niece was claiming the funds for the estate, as an executor.
6. The niece stopped taking calls from me, and didn't respond to text messages, so I asked the solicitor assisting with the estate of P2 to write to the niece asking for P2's share of the proceeds of the estate. There has been no response.

The solicitor had said that there was a risk of burning up the proceeds of the estate if we pursued the matter through the courts. There is also a risk that the niece has burned through the proceeds and there is nothing available to be distributed (hearsay again, but she is possibly that type of person). We don't know if the nephew received anything, and have no contact details for him.

The money isn't the be all and end all - the issue that P2's beneficiaries have is the principle, and don't want the niece to get away scot free.

So, is there any action that we can take that will ensure that the niece is held to account? Is it as simple as contacting the police, and if so, would we be alleging theft, or fraud? Or is there another body that we should contact, responsible for ensuring estates are handled appropriately? If so, does it need to be the P2 executor that reports it, or could it be a beneficiary of P2's estate - the reason I am asking is that the executor is 72, acting with the help of a solicitor (for probate and distribution) and me (assisted with gathering of assets). I wouldn't want her to have to deal with too much pressure. My wife is a beneficiary of P2, and is very keen for justice to be served (will benefit by less than 2K, so not financially motivated).

TIA
elkay

I think the police would be my first port of call or citizens advice.

They might point back to it being a legal matter anyway.

Try small claims

P2 having died, I'm not sure what your status is in this, unless you are executor for P2. Presumably the beneficiaries, if P1 and P2 both intestate, would be the niece and nephew, so it should be up to the nephew to chase what he is due. Perhaps notify him of what has transpired and leave it at that?

scrumpyjack wrote:P2 having died, I'm not sure what your status is in this, unless you are executor for P2. Presumably the beneficiaries, if P1 and P2 both intestate, would be the niece and nephew, so it should be up to the nephew to chase what he is due. Perhaps notify him of what has transpired and leave it at that?

P1 died first, and it is debatable if the will is valid. But if it is invalid, then P2, the spouse (or rather her estate), is the beneficiary, not the niece/nephew. She passed away c. 5 months after P1.

We have no contact details for the nephew.

Can police refuse to investigate it? To me, it is theft. The next of kin are both in their 70's, and the logistics of me following the small claims route for them, without knowing whether it will produce any results, is off-putting.

regards
elkay

elkay wrote:it is debatable if the will is valid.

Why is it debatable? It either is or isn't valid. What's the issue with it?

This is a critical question, as it not only determines who's responsible for administering P1's estate, but it also enables identification of P2's losses - either one third of the estate or the whole of it.

The solicitor had said that there was a risk of burning up the proceeds of the estate if we pursued the matter through the courts.

It simply isn't possible to even consider court action without knowing whether the Will was valid. This also sounds like the sort of stupid comment a probate solicitor with no experience of litigation and a desire for an easy life would make!

Is it as simple as contacting the police, and if so, would we be alleging theft, or fraud?

By all means do so, but don't hold your breath waiting for any useful response. They'll probably just tell you to report it to ActionFraud, who will not investigate theft of anything under £100k, so it'll be ignored, and/or tell you that "It's a civil matter" - in other words "Don't waste our time".

Or is there another body that we should contact, responsible for ensuring estates are handled appropriately?

The courts exist for this purpose.

Clitheroekid wrote:

elkay wrote:it is debatable if the will is valid.

Why is it debatable? It either is or isn't valid. What's the issue with it?

This is a critical question, as it not only determines who's responsible for administering P1's estate, but it also enables identification of P2's losses - either one third of the estate or the whole of it.

After the death of P1, P2 informed her sister that the niece had told her that the will was no good, but did not explain why. She also said the solicitor involved was disbarred, and we can't find out who the solicitor was. The only clue is the name of a secretary who acted as a witness, but we have not been able to trace the firm involved.

Clitheroekid wrote:

The solicitor had said that there was a risk of burning up the proceeds of the estate if we pursued the matter through the courts.

It simply isn't possible to even consider court action without knowing whether the Will was valid. This also sounds like the sort of stupid comment a probate solicitor with no experience of litigation and a desire for an easy life would make!

The solicitor I spoke to is actually handling conveyancing associated with P2's estate. I have completed most of the work for probate for P2, which is quite straightforward, and the solicitor is only dealing with application for Letters of Administration for P2 for P2's sister. The comment about burning through the proceeds is related to (a) the relatively small size of P1's estate, (b) the possiblity that the niece has already spent the proceeds, (c) the likelihood that we would be unable to recover costs from her, and (d) as you can see, it's messy...

Clitheroekid wrote:

Is it as simple as contacting the police, and if so, would we be alleging theft, or fraud?

By all means do so, but don't hold your breath waiting for any useful response. They'll probably just tell you to report it to ActionFraud, who will not investigate theft of anything under £100k, so it'll be ignored, and/or tell you that "It's a civil matter" - in other words "Don't waste our time".

That is our concern.

Clitheroekid wrote:

Or is there another body that we should contact, responsible for ensuring estates are handled appropriately?

The courts exist for this purpose.

So any suggestion on what route we should take to inform the courts about the misadministration of P1's estate? Surely someone should be interested in ensuring justice is served.

elkay wrote:After the death of P1, P2 informed her sister that the niece had told her that the will was no good, but did not explain why. She also said the solicitor involved was disbarred, and we can't find out who the solicitor was. The only clue is the name of a secretary who acted as a witness, but we have not been able to trace the firm involved.

There must have been two witnesses, so who was the other one?

Who actually has possession of the original Will?

Clitheroekid wrote:
The courts exist for this purpose.

elkay wrote:So any suggestion on what route we should take to inform the courts about the misadministration of P1's estate? Surely someone should be interested in ensuring justice is served.

You can't `inform the courts'. They don't take a proactive role in such matters, and are simply a venue for aggrieved parties to bring their claims.

But as I said at the outset, unless and until the contents of the Will are established nobody actually has a claim.

Clitheroekid wrote:

elkay wrote:After the death of P1, P2 informed her sister that the niece had told her that the will was no good, but did not explain why. She also said the solicitor involved was disbarred, and we can't find out who the solicitor was. The only clue is the name of a secretary who acted as a witness, but we have not been able to trace the firm involved.

There must have been two witnesses, so who was the other one?

Who actually has possession of the original Will?

We don't actually know who is in possession of the original will. We have what appears to be a photocopy. Up to now, we assumed that the niece has the original, but I'm wondering of she only has a copy, and the original could be with the solicitor that we can't trace.

The other signature and address is totally illegible, it could be anything. Would this affect the validity of the will?

Clitheroekid wrote:
The courts exist for this purpose.

elkay wrote:So any suggestion on what route we should take to inform the courts about the misadministration of P1's estate? Surely someone should be interested in ensuring justice is served.

You can't `inform the courts'. They don't take a proactive role in such matters, and are simply a venue for aggrieved parties to bring their claims.

But as I said at the outset, unless and until the contents of the Will are established nobody actually has a claim.

To establish if there is an original will, we would need the niece to communicate with us or a representative. If she doesn't, I guess the only option is to engage a solicitor to take her court.

Is this something that a no-win no-fee solicitor might take on board? I've seen them advertised for car accident claims, I suppose there might be some that handle cases like this. Though the value might not be attractive enough - % of 20K if there isn't a valid will, % of 7K if the will is valid.

Thanks for your feedback to date, it has certainly helped with my understanding, though I am disappointed about the lack of options to deal with the situation. In most other areas where Joe public hits hurdles, there is a regulatory body (thinking Ofcom, Ofgen, local authorities), but I appreciate this is different because practically anyone can be an executor as opposed to companies/bodies that can be help accountable.

regards
elkay

Link to redacted copy of will(!) if interested...
https://i.imgur.com/yRuVj2q.jpeg

I've just found out that no-win no-fee is illegal in Northern Ireland I wonder why that is the case.