New Probate Question

[lockedout]

Yes the "NHS pensions Survivors Guide" was one of the documents that we have and I quoted.

As for speaking to the NHS pensions directly - to be honest, unless I put this in writing, I don't hold out much hope of addressing the question.

Having played a frustrating game of "call centre bingo" with them earlier today to try to confirm if my brother did actually make an expression of wish, I think if I did manage to get through to "an expert" that would probably be the chap that know how to access the guide mentioned above, who would religiously quote the relevant section and probably not 'get' the nuance of the question I am asking. No offence to call centre staff, they are are there to do a job, but oftentimes the escalation path when things are beyond their remit are pretty poor.

Anyway I have thought further through CK's response and what the extra guidance I found says and would position it like this :

1. Had my brother specifically nominated that my mother should be the recipient of this 'benefit' - then they would write a cheque for the amount in question to my mother - without any suggestion that it is deemed to pass through my brother's estate.
However, I suspect we are at :
2. If my has not made a specific nomination - then they would write a cheque for the amount in question to my mother - but this time suggesting that the amount is deemed to pass through my brother's estate.

That seems illogical to me and I wonder it is even there 'call' to make? In both cases they are writing the same cheque to the same person.

Anyway going back to CK's very useful input suggesting that even in case 2 the money may not go through the estate.

The main reason given for this was that the scheme has discretion as to whom they pay the benefit. I'm not sure in fact if this is invalidated by the later information I gave - that the guidance notes say this is not a discretionary scheme.

Going back to CK's final suggestion :

I would therefore strongly recommend that you speak to the company involved and clarify 100% that the benefits do not and will not form part of the estate irrespective of how they decide to distribute it. And if so, ask them to confirm it in writing.

I initially took this as a suggestion to ask them an open question, but I wonder now whether it would be more appropriate to make it a statement which we ask them to confirm?

I would like to give my solicitor some 'suggestions' as to how we might proceed - no offence to the solicitor I met earlier, but if CK cannot unequivocally answer this question - then I'm pretty sure he won't be able to either.

To be honest this area of doubt is probably the main reason why I have decided to be represented.

If I were judging the situation for myself I would be inclined to (ignorantly) judge that my interpretation that the money does not pass through the estate and therefore inform the creditors that my brother's estate was insolvent (to the extent of having no prospect of even covering the funeral and administration) and that no payments whatsoever will be available to them and see what they do.

I'm not sure that would be a 'wise' move on my part though!

(And just as footnote on that if I come across as a "rogue" in this sense - I posted earlier in this thread on my concern about how 'responsible' the primary creditor has been and that somewhat shapes my desire to scrap for every penny here)

Thanks again for the sympathies and help everyone (but mostly CK) - this is much appreciated.

[Chrysalis]

For what it’s worth, I totally agree with your analysis and point of view re the debt. Re NHS pensions, yes the call centre help can be ‘patchy’. Sometimes emailing can be better, but I also agree that it might be helpful to phrase your (written or emailed) enquiry as a statement which requires confirmation. I suppose a payment can be made to the personal representative, in the absence of a valid nomination, but not necessarily be within the estate for tax purposes? Dunno. Hope the solicitor can help.

[chas49]

My take from the guidance is that there is no discretion within the scheme. There are rules which say it gets paid in accordance with the"expression of wishes" if made (and to certain people), otherwise it goes to the PR as part of the estate. In the latter case, it is counted towards IHT if relevant, and would also be part of the solvency/insolvency calculations.

[catlover99]

I am not surprised that no-one can give you an answer because the scheme is not just one scheme and payment of death benefits inside or outside the estate depends on some specific circumstances. Trying to deal with this as a relative not familiar with the scheme must be a nightmare.

Can you answer a few questions and I can try to point you in the right direction.

What part of the UK? (there is more than one scheme)
Was your brother working or retired at time of death?
If retired was this on medical grounds (Tier 1 or Teir 2 medical retirement if the answer is yes)?
If retired on medical grounds how long before death?
Was the membership the 1995 or 2008 scheme?

[lockedout]

Thanks catlover,

to answer your questions :

Birmingham, although the employer seems to be SBS headquartered in Southampton - although he had several jobs with the NHS (all in Birmingham, but possibly not all SBS?)
He was still working and I believe it must have been the 1995 scheme as he originally started working for the NHS before that date.

Thanks for any pointers you can give.

[catlover99]

ok - thanks.

There was an option to transfer from the 1995 to the 2008 scheme, however this needed the employee to actively indicate they wished to transfer so I will assume the 1995 scheme rules apply.

Death in service benefit is payable - the sum is twice the annual pensionable pay at time of death. If no nomination was made then the sum is paid to the estate. Unfortunately at the time he joined the scheme it was unlikely he would have been advised of the option to make a nomination (I can't recall if it was offered at the time) and it is not well known as an option for existing scheme members. If by any chance he did transfer to the 2008 scheme then the benefit is twice the reckonable pay. If you have access to payslips then do check if he was paying additional voluntary contributions. This is a money purchase scheme run by Standard Life designed to boost pension.

You will need to write to NHS Pensions, you will need either the scheme membership number or if not known the NI number of the deceased, enclose a copy of the death certificate and identify yourself as the personal representative of the deceased.

You need to get them to confirm:
Whether the deceased was a member of the 1995 or 2008 scheme.
If a death benefit nomination was made - if so then confirmation that this will be paid direct to that individual and is therefore outside of the estate.

You should also ask for a copy of their calculations and check against payslips. There have been issues with accurate recording of pension contributions in recent years.
Request the form to claim payment - they also have it on their website but obviously you need information to know which box to tick.

Do not bother with SBS - they just do payroll.

Write to
Bereavement Department,
NHS Pensions,
PO Box 2269,
Bolton, BL6 9JS

They used to have a separate helpline for bereavement but were then reorganised and the call centre is very much luck of the draw if you get to speak to the right person.

Depending on the size of the estate there may be inheritance tax implications.

Hope this helps.

P.S. on my dealings with them previously helping out the family of a friend once they get the ball rolling then things do move quite quickly

[Clitheroekid]

Damn! I've just lost my post AGAIN after checking that the link worked - viewtopic.php?p=111423#p111423

So here's a potted version.

It appears that I was wrong, and that the benefits do form part of the estate, after all

I've come to this conclusion having delved into HMRC's own Inheritance Tax Manual that they issue for internal guidance.

The relevant section is section 17058, and this seems to make it quite clear that whether the 1995 or the 2008 scheme applies then unless there's been a formal nomination or there's a surviving partner / adult dependent the benefits are definitely part of the estate and (where relevant) subject to inheritance tax - https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manual ... /ihtm17058

I must say I'm very surprised by this. I've no idea why the NHS should be so out of sync with nearly all other pension providers. As can be seen from the IHTM page similar payments from both the local government and teachers' schemes are entirely discretionary and therefore excluded from both the estate and inheritance tax.

Still, at least you finally have what appears to be a definite answer - and it's always refreshing to learn something new!

[catlover99]

I am not sure why NHS Pensions are stuck in the dark ages either. It is a defined benefit scheme which essentially works as a Ponzi scheme as everyones 'pot' is virtual. There is a new scheme coming in - the 2015 scheme which is not optional, needless to say it is not as good as the 1995 scheme...

[lockedout]

Thank you CK,

You are an absolute star (even if you did come up with the "WRONG" answer) . I suspect that you have saved a lot of running around in the almost inevitable event that I find my brother did not make a nomination (by the way catlover - I did have a missed call from the "employer" and they are ringing me back tomorrow - so hopefully they have picked up the ball on this)

I must confess that every time I come back to this I get more and more angry about the way the bank in question allowed the debt to spiral in this way and if I hadn't chosen to protect my urges by employing a solicitor I would be tempted to "forget" CK's excellent work and see if their lawyers are were up to the task of discovering the same evidence!

TBH - I'm actually tempted to reveal that I know the size of the debt c. 5 years ago and ask them to prove that it actually increased four fold over 5 years. Not sure I will get anywhere with that or whether it is worth my time pursuing, but I'm getting a bit bloody-minded about this now, {I suspect it may come down to when they or I reason the argument is no longer worth defending - and in this context I'm cheap!!)

As mentioned previously - it's not actually MY money I am defending here, but I will seek to make sure as much of the benefit I get goes to debt charities or CK's chosen charities (?) I seem to recall this came up in the past and CK nominated a charity.

[melonfool]

Just to add, it might be worth seeing if his direct employer, NHS Trust etc, has their own personnel files, if the pension scheme can't find a nomination form. In my experience lots of HR departments keep copies of nomination forms on local files as well as sending them off to the pension scheme (who often seem to lose them!).

I am so draconian about nomination forms at work. We have to do two - one for the death in service and one for the actual pension pot* - and I remind everyone every year to do/update them.

* if he did do the AVCs you may find there is a small pension pot to be distributed as well as I think this falls outside the defined benefit part and builds up like a money purchase, not buying years but being an actual investment. It's worth checking - my old Boots one is now worth £780, after I paid £5pm into for about two years

Mel