No Party Wall Agreement

[cleo2002]

We've just had our loft converted (standard late victorian 3 bed semi) by a reputable specialist loft conversion company. The building work included taking out a chimney in the party wall. We asked the builder a couple of times whether we needed anything in writing with our neighbour. He told us we did not and said they would put right any damage to our neighbours property.

We did speak with our neighbour about our intentions a couple of times before work started. The first time she even offered to pay towards the cost of the removal of the chimney. I thought that sounded unfair considering there would be the inconvenience of building work. The second time we spoke to her about the work, we did not push her to pay towards the chimney work but just wanted to keep her informed of what was happening, she seemed content and said it didn't affect her as she'd be moving in a few years anyway.

So work commenced and so did the problems. The builders knocked a brick out of the party wall when placing a steel. The steel went in on Tuesday and on Friday the neighbour altered us that a brick had been dislodged. She seemed fine about it and I said I would get the builders to sort it out. She said she wasn't going to be in until the following Thursday and I agreed that they would sort it then. The builders did go and replace the brick but didn't repoint it as they said they'd leave it for the roofer to do when he had some cement mixed up.

It was at that point the neighbour raised the issue of no party wall agreement and was less than civil about it. She also complained about the scaffolding that had been erected on her flat roof. I apologised and said we would look into it. We then received a registered letter from her with a copy of the PWA booklet. The builder tried to phone her to go through plans with her and assure her that any damage would be rectified but she cut him off saying, it had been dealt with, she was in a meeting and she would phone back but she never did. She has ignored two requests to organise a convenient time so that the brick can be repointed.

We read through the PWA booklet and it did say that a PWA could not be done in retrospect and there was no penalty for not doing one.

Chimney removal. According to a couple of neighbours the builders were throwing bricks from the roof into a skip below. They had created a mess in neighbours garden two doors up, which they immediately cleared. I admit I was horrified at the way in which the builders removed the chimney. I apologised to all neighbours concerned and said if they saw anything that looked unsafe they were to report it to Health and Safety Agency. I also asked the builders not to do anything that would upset the neighbours.

The building work finished just before Christmas but the windows did not arrive until the New Year. We have just got rid of the scaffolding. We've just received a message from our neighbour that the workmen climbed over her fence from the property the other side of her and in doing so damaged her new log store. We forwarded her message to the builder who is happy to sort it out but she does not wish to speak to us and is going to go through her solicitor. What she'd like to achieve by doing this is unclear as we've offered to put right anything wrong.

Our builder still maintains we did not need a PWA as we had verbal agreement. He is happy to rectify any damage. I wish we had had PWA. I've learnt so much but then hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Any advice or thoughts?

[didds]

IANAL.

I can;t see what else you could have done and be doing.

You opened dialogue and was fully open. She accepted everything as described.

The builders seem to have somewhat stupid surrounding some areas, but have equally seemed to accept all responsibilities.

She now wants to spend money on a solicitor when all seems available and open to her to have everything rectified to a position she would have been in beforehand.

My guess on the PWA is a friend/relative has told her "ooo, you are supposed to have one, I read it on the internet."

didds

[dspp]

(I'm sure a lawyer will be along soon to set us all straight. This is just based on my experience with PWAs.)

As far as I can see you are simply in the wrong. You should have issued a PWA, you didn't. And your builders and scaffolders have done what they all do.

She may be being unreasonable, but may be reasonably naffed off with things. It doesn't really matter. The problem is you are in the wrong and now have to be careful to avoid issuing her with a blank cheque. Which will be your blank cheque, not your builder's or scaffolder's.

I suggest writing to her stating the history, making it clear that you understand damage has been done, making it clear that you have already offered to rectify it, and undertaking to do so up to a reasonable amount. Estimate what that reasonable cost is and then double it (so that nobody can accuse you of scrimping).

This letter will rapidly find its way to her solicitor who will likely realise that you are being very reasonable and tell her to say yes. The danger is that they will realise you are a soft target and come after you for solicitors fees etc. Problem is you are a soft target, but that's how it is. That's why you should set a reasonable limit and make it a very high one !

just my 2c worth,

(I've issued PWAs, received PWAs, and also not received PWAs. I've seen damage. I have also seen a professional 'building' friend on the receiving end of litigation in a similar instance to yours ... I've never not issued a PWA mind you).

(I also have formed a low opinion of the cost/benefit of these specialist reputable loft conversion companies after witnessing them failing to do structural calcs and drawings correctly, and generally overcharging by about 30%)

regards, dspp

[didds]

As far as I can see you are simply in the wrong. You should have issued a PWA, you didn't.

DSPP's expereince certainly trumps mine ... bhut... in the OP

"We read through the PWA booklet and it did say that a PWA could not be done in retrospect and there was no penalty for not doing one."

So on that basis - what IS the real problem that the OP didn't have one? If he should have issued a PWA but didn't... what difference does it make really given "there was no penalty for not doing one".

??

didds

[dspp]

Because there is no 'penalty' (aka fine) for not doing one many people chance it and don't do one.

That leaves them entirely in the wrong when something bad happens. It might just be the odd brick out of place. But equally if you've got the calcs wrong you could end up in some serious problems, and without a leg to stand on.

An example is someone I know in a terrace who has done a loft conversion without putting in a PWA and without the requisite strengthening. The fact that two houses in the straight have done it the wrong way (no PWA and incorrect strengthening) does not make it right. I know about it because two other houses in the street have done it the right way (mine being one) and there is a particular issue with which wall is and which wall is not load bearing - and it is not obvious. The point about the PWA is that the issue was correctly identified by a neighbour who received the PWA, asked for the plans, and said 'hang on a moment'. If the PWA had not been issued then the design problem would not have been identified. Funnily enough one of those houses never managed to get through building regs for the loft conversion and cannot sell at market value now (they've tried, twice).

A 'trade' friend of mine has had a neighbour 'go-legal' over PWAs and scaffolding, and it was costly for them. If no PWA then very little leg to stand on. In my opinion the 'reputable conversion company' should have insisted on the PWA, but always they like to shunt that risk elsewhere. Building regs may ask to see it, maybe not.

regards, dspp

[cleo2002]

I'm grateful for both your responses.

I do not dispute that we were in the wrong for not putting a PWA in place ahead of time. Had I realised such a thing existed, I would have done complied with it from the outset.

Building control have just been and have officially signed it off. I spoke with the inspector and he was satisfied he saw all correct beams and levels of insulation.

She had a structural surveyor look at her property in 2014 when she was trying to sell and her purchasers claimed the building was unsound. I have a copy of the letter the surveyor sent that mentions the party wall was acceptable. When we purchased the house in 2007 we had a survey done which mentioned the party wall needed attention due to missing bricks. We have addressed this, subsequently the Party Wall is in better state than when we started.

As I understand it a PWA deals with the party wall. She has not claimed we have damaged the party wall due to our building work. A loft conversion is within permitted development, subject to Building Regs (which have been done properly).

I take on board what DSPP says regarding doubling the offer of putting right what is wrong.