A quote courtesy of Heineken

[DiamondEcho]

From today's Standard, a quote from the heir to the Heineken dynasty on a tour of their former brewery:

“Why is Budweiser like having sex in a canoe?” he inquires. We raise our eyebrows expectantly. “Because,” he teases, “It’s f*****g close to water.”
http://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/lon ... 10981.html

[Slarti]

I'm sure that's not new and I thought that the first time I heard it it was about American beer.

Slarti

[didds]

at least 33 years old in my direct knowledge and undoubtedly older than that

didds

[DiamondEcho]

Showing my age*, since I'd never heard it before

* [cough cough]

[redsturgeon]

I heard it while living in the USA in 1981-82, so I can date it to at least 34 years old!

John

[Slarti]

I heard it while living in the USA in 1981-82, so I can date it to at least 34 years old!

John

I think I first hear it from an American c1975.

Oh damn, that makes me feel old


Slarti

[Lootman]

I'm sure that's not new and I thought that the first time I heard it it was about American beer.

Slarti

It's something of a myth that US beer is weak. There is "light beer" in the US which is certainly not strong. But Miller Lite, Bud Lite and Coors Lite are all around 4% to 4.2%, or about the same as a typical UK bitter

Regular US Bud is 5% which would be considered fairly pokey by UK standards. And then there are the now-notorious US IPAs, double IPAs and triple IPAs some of which (like Pliny the Younger and DogFish Head 120) have ABV's that are in wine territory but without the sickly sweet taste that makes UK barley wine undrinkable to this inbiber.

[Hallucigenia]

It's something of a myth that US beer is weak. There is "light beer" in the US which is certainly not strong. But Miller Lite, Bud Lite and Coors Lite are all around 4% to 4.2%, or about the same as a typical UK bitter

Bitter is not the comparison though - the US lagers are comparable to European lagers in ABV. Cooking lager like Carling/Fosters is 4%, "premium" lagers like Heineken (going back on topic), Stella & Carlsberg are 5%.

The proximity to water is less about ABV and more about taste. Historically that was the stylistic difference of trad British beers versus US lagers wrt malt and bittering, but one can also point to the bitterness of Bud halving since WWII (down to about 10IBU), and the beancounters made further "adjustments" after AB was bought by InBev.

Obviously that idea of US beer has rather been overtaken by current US craft beer, which is not restricted by British duty rules (US has a flat rate on beer by volume, rather than UK's proportional to alcohol content with a step at 7.5% to ~wine rates). I suspect that proportion of draught-in-pubs versus packaged-at-home, and enforcement of drink driving laws also have an effect on the ABV that people drink.

[Alaric]

I think I first hear it from an American c1975.

I thought it was Watney's Red (Barrel), so dating back to the founding of CAMRA.

[Hallucigenia]

Red Barrel doesn't quite fit in the way that US lager does though.

IMDB says the quote featured in the Bruces sketch ("Immanuel Kant was a real pissant...") in Monty Python at the Hollywood Bowl in 1982, but I don't think it was in the original TV version. I can imagine the Pythons slipping it into a live show at some point in the 70s though, it's the sort of slightly contrived line that would appeal to them.

[DiamondEcho]

The proximity to water is less about ABV and more about taste. Historically that was the stylistic difference of trad British beers versus US lagers wrt malt and bittering, but one can also point to the bitterness of Bud halving since WWII (down to about 10IBU), and the beancounters made further "adjustments" after AB was bought by InBev.

I agree with this it's not an ABV% issue, it's in the hopping. In some ways mainstream/mass-market US beer is similar in style to those found in Asia [Tiger, Anchor, Tsingtao and so on]. The Asians do not like hoppy bitterness, in fact they have a genetic variance that makes bitter flavours repellent. [I recall some time back trying to see if this was correlated with their widespread regional lactose intolerance, but forget the outcome of that now...].

I recall visiting some friends [non-Asian] in Ohio, and taking along some beers that I thought would really interest them. Theakstones, Fullers, Youngs and so on. Instead they made something of a show of not being able to drink them, and I ended up drinking them myself! 'So strong, so bitter!'. Ironic as I found what they drunk [Bud, Miller, Coors etc] just ...nothing, at least flavour-wise. I recall assuming it was an ABV issue, and being shocked to find Bud there is give or take 5%, it's all to do with the hopping.

The other issue is 'brewed under license'. You might imagine you're drinking a BUL beer that's the same or veeeery close to the original, but that's usually not the case at all IME. Try drinking a Stella in Belgium compared to version in the UK which is/was BUL by... er Whitbread IIRC - totally different. Same for Guinness in Ireland vs England, totally different. Try Guinness in Africa lol! It's so different there was a market for importing it into the UK in various West London neighbourhoods.

IIRC Heineken in the UK is BUL by John Smith's [Tadcaster, Yorkshire]. It's be interesting to do a side-by-side test vs the real-deal from Holland.

[DiamondEcho]

I can't edit the above, so have to add a correction:

Heineken in the UK is brewed in Edinburgh, Tadcaster and Manchester. [I wonder how they compare...]
https://www.heineken.co.uk/CONTACT

[Weath]

.Same for Guinness in Ireland vs England, totally different. Try Guinness in Africa lol! It's so different there was a market for importing it into the UK in various West London neighbourhoods.

Nope, Guinness in Ireland is exactly the same as that in England as both now (since 2005) originate from the Dublin brewery . It's a populist myth that somehow the Irish version is 'better'.

With regards to the African (Nigerian) version, well it's a totally different brew - 'Foreign Extra Stout' @ ~7% which is much closer to the original recipe of Arthur Guinness than its modern day equivalent.

Weath.

[simoan]

Nope, Guinness in Ireland is exactly the same as that in England as both now (since 2005) originate from the Dublin brewery . It's a populist myth that somehow the Irish version is 'better'.

With regards to the African (Nigerian) version, well it's a totally different brew - 'Foreign Extra Stout' @ ~7% which is much closer to the original recipe of Arthur Guinness than its modern day equivalent.

Weath.

I agree things have changed but it certainly used to be the case it was better, so not really a myth. I always felt the Guinness in NW England was better than down south but not sure whether that was because it came from Dublin rather than Park Royal? Then again, perhaps I was too busy enjoying myself in NW England

As far as drinking Guinness overseas, don't even think about it in New Zealand... whatever it is, it ain't Guinness and it's not nice either. Must admit I prefer a pint of Camden Ink these days when I can get it (I know other good stouts are available!).

All the best, Si

[dionaeamuscipula]

I agree things have changed but it certainly used to be the case it was better, so not really a myth.

Good to see you around these parts simoan.

Back in the days when I lived in County Kilburn, some of the local genuinely Irish pubs used to get their Guinness shipped in from Dublin for this very reason. They poo-pooed the stuff brewed at Park Royal, just up the road from them. Then one week they substituted in a Park Royal barrel, geed on I guess by a journalist. No one complained or noticed the difference. Of course when the regulars were told they'd been drinking Park Royal rather than St James's Gate they all suddenly determined that in fact, yes, they had noticed something amiss but had to the man all decided not to say anything. Yeah, right.

Of course Murphy's should really be the stout of choice to the connoisseur.

DM

[simoan]

Good to see you around these parts simoan.
DM

Yes, likewise DM. It was a long walk from TMF to TLF but it looks like the strongest of us made it... Must admit I am really enjoying the utter randomness of the "Active Topics" page on TLF much more fun than a "Best Of" Board Only danger is I never really know what forum or thread I am posting on, which can be dangerous!

All the best, Si

[DiamondEcho]

Nope, Guinness in Ireland is exactly the same as that in England as both now (since 2005) originate from the Dublin brewery . It's a populist myth that somehow the Irish version is 'better'.

Ah/OIC. My experience is from visiting the Dublin office of my multi-national-co employer during the Euro-conversion project in 1998. Usually I don't drink Guinness at all, I simply don't like it, and find the 'fake' over-carbonation both a tedious gimmick, especially in the pathetic way it's heralded as a supposed sign of quality* ['Everything comes to he who waits' was one ad byline], despite being in complete detriment to the flavour.
So in Dublin when I was taken to a pub that had Guinness via hand-pulled 'real-ale' type levers, ie no forced gas injection, witnessed it's waaay more pleasant flavour, I realised that in that form it actually was quite pleasant.

* Same how in Japan they waaaay over-infuse tap lager with CO2. Meaning on the first go at filling a glass it'll be about 95/5 froth/beer, and takes 10 minutes to pour a full measure, during which you wait, and wait, and..... Unbelievably this is considered locally to be a virtue, a sign of supposed quality. There was a bar in the basement of the Tokyo block I worked in where we coached the staff to pour our pints 'English style' - no messing about waiting!

- Anyone else remember drinking in your local, [as 'a local'] and being able to buy a full top-up of a pint glass for the price of 1/2 pint, even if you'd left just a strategic 1/4 pint or so?
- I've used a parallel 'trick' in bars at airports where I'm going to billeted for a few hours. Get a drink, give a good tip, drink 3/4 and order from the same staff member the smallest 'top-up', repeat... harder these days with ultra-controlled optic measures etc

[tieresias]

the 'fake' over-carbonation

It is a mixture of carbon dioxide, the normal bubbly gas, and nitrogen. Nitrogen bubbles are slightly larger when they explode. When they do, it leaves a creamier feeling in your mouth. It's not only Guinness that do this, it's also John Smith's "widget, it's got a widget, a widget it has got..."

[Hallucigenia]

No, nitrogen bubbles are smaller than CO2, which is why nitro beers taste smoother and creamier.

This article celebrates the man who invented nitro Guinness at Park Royal, turning draught Guiness from a fiendishly complex system involving two barrels at different pressures in the 1950s into the multi-£billion behemoth it is today :
http://www.morningadvertiser.co.uk/Drin ... itro-stout

Foreign Extra Stout is a whole other ballgame - it even has its own Wiki page :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinness_ ... xtra_Stout
From the main Guinness Wiki page :
"The basis is an unfermented but hopped Guinness wort extract shipped from Dublin, which is added to local ingredients and fermented locally. The strength can vary, for example, it is sold at 5% ABV in China, 6.5% ABV in Jamaica and East Africa, 6.8% in Malaysia, 7.5% in the United States, and 8% ABV in Singapore. In Nigeria a proportion of sorghum is used. Foreign Extra Stout is blended with a small amount of intentionally soured beer. (Formerly it was blended with beer that soured naturally as a result of fermenting in ancient oak tuns with a Brettanomyces population. It is now made with pasteurized beer that has been soured bacterially.) It was previously known as West Indies Porter, then Extra Stout and finally Foreign Extra Stout. It was first made available in the UK in 1990"

[redsturgeon]

In Nigeria a proportion of sorghum is used. Foreign Extra Stout is blended with a small amount of intentionally soured beer. (Formerly it was blended with beer that soured naturally as a result of fermenting in ancient oak tuns with a Brettanomyces population. It is now made with pasteurized beer that has been soured bacterially.) It was previously known as West Indies Porter, then Extra Stout and finally Foreign Extra Stout. It was first made available in the UK in 1990"

I'd like to try some of that, anyone know where to get it?

John