Talking of glasses of beer...

[swill453]

Why is it here in the UK we, as beer drinkers (in general), are absolutely adamant that we get our full measure of liquid? This is both personally, to the point of complaining if one gets more than about a quarter inch of head, and in the law (regulated glasses, prosecutions for short measures etc.).

Most other European countries* seem to be far more laid back about this, where you might get a glass that's anything up to two-thirds non-beer (head or empty space), and very variable. I've noticed this where beer is cheap (Czech Republic) and where it's expensive (France) and many in between.

And the locals seem to accept it without a qualm. So why?

* - Not exclusively, of course (Ireland springs to mind).

Scott.

[hermit100]

I suspect it's something to do with the fact that here beer is sold in specific measures i.e. a pint/half pint, so people (reasonably) expect, if they order a pint, to get a pint, taking into account head allowed etc., and there are rules.
In other countries you probably just get 'a glass of beer' or just 'a beer' which can be interpreted any way they like.

I haven't been abroad in ages so I might be completely wrong.

[bungeejumper]

Don't know, but it can create some awkward social situations. I was out with the neighbours the other week, trying out a local boozer that had just passed into new ownership. Mine was the first round (six drinks), and I was not especially amused when one of them complained that the fluid beer in his pint of Owd Gizz-Rot was an eighth of an inch below the plimsoll line, and would I please take the matter up with the woman behind the bar and get it topped up?

I should perhaps point out that my neighbour was, until very recently, the main man for Camra in our area, and it was formerly part of his job to be twitchy about this kind of thing. But the trouble is, I like my neighbours, and six of us had come out for a nice evening, and there he was getting uptight about half a dribble of ale.

I decided to play dumb and suggested that he use his own technical expertise to explain to the bar-lady himself why he wasn't happy. He did, and she gave him an awkward-squad kind of look, and silently topped up his glass. As for me, I got back to our table sharpish so as to avoid the Evil Eye, which continued throughout the evening.

Pity really, the pub was okay, but it felt like he'd made us all feel unwelcome in the bar. He didn't have to pick that argument, but he did. What would other TLFs have done?

BJ

[swill453]

Pity really, the pub was okay, but it felt like he'd made us all feel unwelcome in the bar. He didn't have to pick that argument, but he did. What would other TLFs have done?

Noticed it, and got it topped up myself before leaving the bar in the first place

Scott.

[redsturgeon]

I really don't care if the glass is a little short of the measure, as long as it is a nice drinkable pint.

John

[AleisterCrowley]

It depends - if one is way short I'll ask for a top up, but most places I drink in will top up without being asked. If they are consistently short they lose more than they gain on balance.
Always at the bar though, no taking stuff back
Over on t'continent I'm normally drinking bottled beer. Particularly in France, where its £5 for a small glass of froth if you let the sods get away with it...

[bungeejumper]

Particularly in France, where its £5 for a small glass of froth if you let the sods get away with it...

When in France I drink Belgian - mainly Affligem when it's on the card. Bars that serve only Heineken for the same money (about 3 euros) should be summarily bulldozed. Not having to tip any more does help, of course.

BJ

[Hallucigenia]

I suspect it's something to do with the fact that here beer is sold in specific measures i.e. a pint/half pint, so people (reasonably) expect, if they order a pint, to get a pint, taking into account head allowed etc., and there are rules.
In other countries you probably just get 'a glass of beer' or just 'a beer' which can be interpreted any way they like.

I haven't been abroad in ages so I might be completely wrong.

In France the normal order is un demi (25cl, a throwback to the pre-metric days it's half of une pinte rather than a half litre), and I guess that across the EU people are in theory constrained by EU rules on weights and measures - but as we know some countries implement EU rules more assiduously than others.

But practicalities play a part - lined glasses are common for fizzy lager, but less so for ale. Which in turn has meant that the kind of people who join CAMRA have made a really big deal of it, so short measures are something that have become more of a thing here than elsewhere.

I suspect there's an element of it just being something we've always been hot on, because we've always had a relatively strong law enforcement system without the periodic carnage seen in most European countries. The alewife of Chester who sold bad beer in short measures was the only person in the medieval miracle plays whose sins couldn't be forgiven by God, she had a one-way ticket to hellfire and damnation.

[GJHarney]

Having only experienced in any depth Belgium, Dutch and German pubs/bars and never felt I was served particularly short measures I can't really say much about Europe, but in my experience there huge differences around different parts of Britain.

In the NW it is pretty standard I think to dislike 'flat' beer and to expect a head on ale, half an inch is about 'right' but up to an inch is acceptable (any more and I will ask for it to be topped). As a result of the expectation of a foam head sprinklers are pretty much universal. However, different parts of the country both dislike any head at all, and often this is combined with a dislike of sprinklers and a preference for a far more 'flat' beer all round.

I've pondered this on a number of occasions to try and work out why. Surely it can't just be about value and a full pint as Scousers and Lancashire folk are not noted for their dislike of either? It may be something that is increasingly lost in the mists of time, just like the fact that few people today even know the connection between low alcohol high sugar beers like mild and heavy industry and mining (where such beers were ideal for quickly refreshing and replenishing after highly tiring and sweaty work).

[DiamondEcho]

Two observations to add:

Japan. Where IME for draft beer they equate carbonation with quality, as if Guinness were designed for their market. So in a pub they'll pour a glass and it'll start as c80% froth. They'll then put the glass down and wait or pout others. They'll then repeat the process until the glass is finally the right measure but still with a fat head on it. This all takes so long that when I lived there we coached the staff in the small local bar near the office to pour beer 'English style'. Ie. adjust the tap nozzle and pour angle into the glass so the beer came out in liquid rather than foam form.

Australia. Where they seem to have quite an array of draft beer sizes. One is called a midi [IIRC], and IIRC there is another called a schooner or similar. It was long ago now, but they struck me as being pretty small measures. I'd google it but have to run!

[redsturgeon]

My daughter works part time in the local Greene King pub and she was tell me yesterday of the technology that GK have at their disposal to check how the beer is being drawn from the barrels.

The beers are hand pumped but sensors can give management information on exactly what time each pint was drawn and exactly how much was drawn.

She was tells me that her first pint drawn the day before yesterday was for a regular at 10.58 (they are not officially open until 11.00) and she had actually short changed him by drawing 98% of a pint! Naughty girl!

The system also reports exactly when the pipes were cleaned and gives warning if there is too long between cleaning.

John

[jfgw]

One of my regular pubs sells beer in schooners (as well as halves, pints, quarts and three third-pint glasses of different beers). A schooner is two-thirds of a pint.

Julian F. G. W.

[didds]

The system also reports exactly when the pipes were cleaned and gives warning if there is too long between cleaning.

I find that quite interesting. Because it suggests that they don;t clean lines between barrel changes - because if they did

1) you wouldn't clean lines while a serving barrel was still connected ie beer still in the barrel
2) if a barrel is on for a "long" time the line cleaning alarm would really mean is that barrel isn;t really worth it any longer
3) therefore the alarm is there for when two or more barrels have used the same line in succession.

Both my locals clean their lines on every barrel change as a matter of procedure.



didds

[jfgw]

One pub I went into once served halves in old festival glasses. These were lined glasses with the lines about 3/4" from the top. They were filled to the brim.

Another pub used unmarked straight glasses. I was in there with a friend and we ordered a half each. Both glasses were the same diameter and neither had a CE mark. One glass was quite a bit taller than the other and both were filled.

Julian F. G. W.

[redsturgeon]

The system also reports exactly when the pipes were cleaned and gives warning if there is too long between cleaning.

I find that quite interesting. Because it suggests that they don;t clean lines between barrel changes - because if they did

1) you wouldn't clean lines while a serving barrel was still connected ie beer still in the barrel
2) if a barrel is on for a "long" time the line cleaning alarm would really mean is that barrel isn;t really worth it any longer
3) therefore the alarm is there for when two or more barrels have used the same line in succession.

Both my locals clean their lines on every barrel change as a matter of procedure.



didds

I will check with my daughter how long often the system expects lines to be cleaned.

John

[Slarti]

The system also reports exactly when the pipes were cleaned and gives warning if there is too long between cleaning.

I find that quite interesting. Because it suggests that they don;t clean lines between barrel changes - because if they did

1) you wouldn't clean lines while a serving barrel was still connected ie beer still in the barrel

Why ever not?

Unless it is top pressure stuff.

Slarti

[didds]

i presume you clean a line, put a barrel on, serve beer.

why would you clean a line that us serving beer that it was cleaned for?? unless... if said beer takes so long to shift that you might feel the line was tainted (/) surely you dump the unsold beer, clean the line, attach another fresh barrel>?

in theory yes I can see that you could clean a line in mid barrel. i juts don't see that is what really happens cos the barrel either sells quickly enough, or gets to the stage of ndumping it?

diudds

[Alaric]

Why is it here in the UK we, as beer drinkers (in general), are absolutely adamant that we get our full measure of liquid?

It's the law, isn't it? Was there not a publican once prosecuted by the local Trading Standards for serving short measure?

[swill453]

It's the law, isn't it? Was there not a publican once prosecuted by the local Trading Standards for serving short measure?

Well of course, but the question is about why we're such sticklers to the law, when the equivalents (which surely exist) are happily ignored by drinkers, to their own detriment, elsewhere?

Scott.

[UncleEbenezer]

Well of course, but the question is about why we're such sticklers to the law, when the equivalents (which surely exist) are happily ignored by drinkers, to their own detriment, elsewhere?

Scott.

If you order something with a big head, should you not expect that some part of your pint will be that head? You're arguing definitions if you call that short measure. Maybe not everyone shares the same definition.