Should pub chairs have wooden legs?

[GrandOiseau]

I know on the surface it seems an obscure question but I think it's a good one.

And of course I have an opinion and a reason for the question which I will share in due course but wondering what peoples untainted thoughts were.

GO

[AleisterCrowley]

Depends on the flooring.
Metal legs are acceptable if the area is carpeted. Wooden preferable if tiled/cobbled, for noise reasons.
For rough uneven floors, three (wooden) legs are better than four.

Additional thought; ALL pub tables should have three legs. Saves having to use a beer mat/fag packet as a 'Ludlow" to cure a case of the wobbles

[bungeejumper]

Depends on the venue, surely? Country pubs with log fires need wood, swanky city bars will probably prefer the chromium look. On a high bar stool I'd expect it to be steel because of the better rigidity. Steel is also handier in a Wetherspoons fight.

BJ

[UncleIan]

Steel is also handier in a Wetherspoons fight.

I used to frequent the games room of a rather salubrious pub, and wondered why many of the tables were surrounded by low wooden stools rather than chairs. Then I sat on one, and noticed it was curved and sculpted like a chair. I looked at another and saw what it was....they used to be chairs, but no longer had backs to them. As the trophy cabinet had smashed perspex in it and no trophies, we put two and two together, and reckoned the backs had been broken off, then the nubs of the remaining bits of the back rest sanded down.

Like I say, salubrious. Yet at the same time, delusions of grandeur. They served snakebite and black (not for me) in the games room, but not in the lounge bar.

And the answer to the original question posed is generally yes.

[AleisterCrowley]

Insalubrious, surely?!
(pedant)

[GrandOiseau]

There is a new pubco called Draft House (drafthouse.co.uk) that have taken over an ex-Wetherspoons Lloyds No 1 outlet here in Milton Keynes. I had a sneaky pint in there late lunchtime as a reccy. I feared another Holborn Whippet type experience. It had some similarities. The building is modern but as a spoons once inside it had the standard fit and a traditional pub feel. Draft House have levelled it (used to be split level), taken out the fire in the centre, stripped it back and put in harsher/cheaper seating including chairs with metal legs (hence my question!). Maybe I'm just an old fuddy duddy but I don't find it particularly comfortable or relaxing. I didn't eat but the food was served on plastic trays with a paper, err thing, on the base. Looked cheap.

Anyway, my real purpose was to check on the beer range, prices and quality. They were two banks of three handpumps in between the longer lines of keg fonts - with cages of bottles of beers behind. One of the handpumps was a cider. Other beers seemed to be a good variety of non mainstream ales. One of the pumps had a blank label with Mordues Oatmeal Stout written on it. I plumped for that. I was served with a dimpled bowl tankard glass as discussed on the other thread. I wasn't asked, it was a fait accompli. I think it's the first time I've drank out of such a glass for twenty years. But it was fine. The beer itself was excellent. There was a sign saying cask beers were £3.45. Not cheap, there is another Wetherspoons just down the road that serves a good range of ales at least a pound cheaper but not crazy money either. I was paying similar in an Everards pub in a suburb of Leicester a couple of weeks ago for example. There were numerous clipboards strewn around. Picking one up I could see this was the drinks list. All draught beers were listed on page 1 with prices quoted for a third, half, two thirds (yes, really) and a pint. Some of the stronger beers had N/A for a pint. I can't remember all the different sections but most seemed to be keg. I guess many would use the term craft. Strangely I found the beer I was drinking, Mordues Oatmeal Stout under the "Stout" section rather than the "Cask" section. IIRC there were only two stouts listed, I think the other was a keg beer. Strangely the it had the price has £5.50 a pint. I'm not sure if that was what I was charged because I paid with a £10 note and was given all change back. I didn't check as I assumed he just didn't have any five pound notes. Either way it's a tale of confusion. Even more confusing to me in some ways was why cask ales are sold at £3.45 and everything else is nearer £5 a pint and in many cases more. The ales weren't standard mainstream ales just as many of the keg draft beers weren't all particular strong or obscure - Pilsener Urquell was on for example. To be fair the range looked pretty good overall.

The bottled beer list was extensive and had some attractive options made up the next page or two. Pretty expensive for me though. I reckon if I had a session of 7 or 8 halves or bottles, a la a beer festival I'd be blowing a tidy sum. I'm never quite sure about drinking foreign bottled beer in pubs when there is a good selection of cask beers. But it's a good outlet for these parts. The also had a range of wines, spirits and soft drinks also listed.

I left pondering whether it was a place I wanted to spend a lot of time in and regardless whether the place itself would be a success. It's hard to tell. It didn't strike me as a beer drinkers den or an upmarket beer house - in short it was struggling for an identity. It needs custom to make it work but the prices aren't going to attract those with budgetry constraints. I guess it works well against the All Bar One a couple of doors down which has given up on cask altogther and has a limited keg or bottled range.

I am serious about the metal chair legs. As I was sitting there looking at them I felt the coldness, the thinness of them, the scrapping and tinny sound of them. It kind of mirrored how I felt about these new fangled beer houses.

GO

[Hallucigenia]

There was a sign saying cask beers were £3.45. Not cheap

Sounds a pretty fair price for an independent outlet. They won't be getting rich off that. National average was £3.24 last year which if you allow for a lot of Spoons and equivalents bringing down the average, and a bit of inflation means that was pretty much average. And Draft House have a pretty decent rep, so at least you ought to be getting well-kept beer and clued-up staff for your money, which you won't usually get in Spoons. As you say "The beer itself was excellent" That's not something you can guarantee in many pubs - and that's worth paying for IMO.

Even more confusing to me in some ways was why cask ales are sold at £3.45 and everything else is nearer £5 a pint and in many cases more.

That just reflects the kind of prices breweries are charging for cask vs keg. That sounds like they're working on a 60%GP or so. Typically they might be paying £60-70+VAT per 72-pint cask direct from local microbreweries, £70-80 per cask for "long distance" stuff like your Mordues, maybe over £90 for cult stuff like Siren and (formerly) Cloudwater. Whereas I imagine most of their keg stuff will be one-way key keg, which costs ~£15 for a container for 30l (52.8pints). So just the key keg will add on ~60p/pint at retail prices, and then you have to factor in that most keg ale tends to be the craftier stuff with exotic hops and the like which is always going to be more expensive. The real exotica like DIPAs could be costing them over £100 for a 20l (35 pint before line losses) key keg.

"The beer itself was excellent" makes up for an awful lot.

As it happens I was in the Holborn Whippet for the first time the other night - the cask offering was clearly signed, the beer was great, the staff enthusiastic, the environment isn't bad - a good time was had. I'm not sure I'd go out of my way for it, but it's definitely a good option when in the area.

[redsturgeon]

I dream of decent beer at 3.45 a pint. Not sure about metal chair legs unless it is all styled right...it can be done but it is not easy.

My local, all wooden legs though...and that's just some of the older seafaring regulars!

Cask Siren IPA on last week though...that was excellent £4 a pint though.


John

[Hallucigenia]

Presumably you're close enough that the pub can buy direct from Siren - you wouldn't find eg Soundwave for less than £4.50 if they had to go via a distributor.

Siren's a funny one - some of their stuff is so left field you're just gasping at the audacity of it but it's not particularly nice, but stuff like Tea Party works, and in spite of myself I liked that banana one they did last year (http://www.sirencraftbrew.com/blackligh ... e-project/ ) and the Vimto IPA (http://www.sirencraftbrew.com/shop/index.php/vipa.html) ...

[redsturgeon]

Presumably you're close enough that the pub can buy direct from Siren - you wouldn't find eg Soundwave for less than £4.50 if they had to go via a distributor.

About 30 miles as the crow flies!

John

[Hallucigenia]

OK, I thought you were a bit closer than that. But yeah, that's the kind of radius that most breweries seem to regard as a home territory (and it's the CAMRA definition of LocAle), although many seem to do odd long-distance trips as well.

To bring things full circle, the Whippet had keg Soundwave on at £5/pint the other night, I didn't have it.

[GrandOiseau]

Just to be clear I don't regard £3.45 for a cask beer as expensive - I said it "not cheap" and pointed out that a short walk away there was beer available that was cheap. I had no gripe at all about them charging £3.45 for a very nice pint of cask stout. Apologies if my post was somewhat befuddled in that regard.

Thanks to Hal for explaing why keg beers are so expensive. Personally if cask beers are available at £3.45 I can't think why I would want to pay £5+ for a keg beer. Sure the range is much larger but it's more expensive and it's keg. What's the attraction and to whom.

I'm glad you like the Whippet Hal, you are welcome to it. Maybe you should seek out the Draft House outlets in London. There are about 8 of them scattered around. I might go in mine again at some point. I'm not falling over myself partly because as I mentioned in my post it's not a comfortable place. I like my wooden legs.

[GrandOiseau]

Jesus wept. Its worse than I ever thought possible: That sounds horrible.

The thing about a Wetherspoons is it is vaguely traditional enough (wooden chairlegs etc) to be welcoming and cheap enough to attract customers. Beer and punters meeting usually gives some banter and a lively atmosphere.

The alternative of a real old fashioned country pub is my favourite: A log fire, village yokels, home cooked roast dinner and decent beer. It tends to be a bit more expensive but also popular. (You will note the chairs will likely have wooden legs here also)

The spit and sawdust gaff in the city with a small room, no food other than crisps, a name like the "Bag of Nails" and a cast of hardbitten regulars is also fun, but a dying breed. (Not many chairs here, but generally wooden.)

The posh wine bar has its place, but only to pick up sozzled ladies. And you have your various chain pubs and theme bars, which all have their particular offer.

However: Your place sounds like the pits, like the posh wine bar mated with a scout hut, to produce a botchling baby with food served prison-style, metal chairlegs sucking the life out of the room like an earthing strip on a tall building. Its gone off half cocked. Never go back.

Great post. Amusing but with an underlying truth IMO. These new places just don't have an identity for me.

[Hallucigenia]

Personally if cask beers are available at £3.45 I can't think why I would want to pay £5+ for a keg beer. Sure the range is much larger but it's more expensive and it's keg. What's the attraction and to whom.

I'm glad you like the Whippet Hal, you are welcome to it. Maybe you should seek out the Draft House outlets in London.

For some people that "range is much larger" thing is a critical factor - not the choice so much as there's various styles which just aren't practical to sell within a couple of days as you do with cask. Half the world like novelty, half like familiarity, and I'm definitely in the former camp.

There's also the consistency thing - cask on song may be the 100% experience but I'd say that the odds of you getting that 100% experience are about 30% if you went into a random pub. Keg gives you a 90% chance of a 90% experience.

Don't get me wrong - I generally prefer cask, but I don't have a particular problem with keg or bottle either. As I think I mentioned a while back, my top three beers of last year happened to be one of each.

I wouldn't say I love the Whippet - but at least it's pubbier than a lot of the craft places in London. I'm not one to regularly go to the hardcore craft places but they're interesting to pop into now and again for a bit of beer geeking.

[Clitheroekid]

There is a new pubco called Draft House (drafthouse.co.uk) that have taken over an ex-Wetherspoons Lloyds No 1 outlet here in Milton Keynes.

Looking at their website it seems that their target audience is clearly people in their 20's and thirties - http://www.drafthouse.co.uk/

Being a long way outside that bracket my heart sinks when I see pictures of hipsterish chaps in beards and statements like "We’re opening cool new pubs ..."

This mild feeling of gloom is reinforced looking at the `Work for us' tab, which specifies that the ideal employee should have "a keen ear for rockin’ music" - http://www.drafthouse.co.uk/work-for-us/ The last thing I want in a pub is `rockin' music', and my overall image of this type of pub is one where I would feel deeply uncomfortable, if only because of being conspicuously twice the age of everyone else there!

And the food looks like a nightmare vision of American junk food extraordinaire - http://www.drafthouse.co.uk/our-food/

In fact, the whole site has a very American feel to it, and while I can see that this type of pub may be attractive to its target audience I can't see this old codger visiting any time soon.

[Wuzwine]

Hi,

Wooden legs and handle glasses of real ale. Too many pubs locally have none of these. This has happened in the last 2 years!!

I lived with straight glasses and cold drinks and they slkipped out of my hands. Especially with a chaser or two.

Wuz (The real ale is the most important as I don't drop every straight glass)

[didds]

Looking at their website it seems that their target audience is clearly people in their 20's and thirties - http://www.drafthouse.co.uk/

And its classic moulding of the client stuff.

Young people (!!) led to believe this is what a pub "is" thus look for pubs that fit this mould . There's nothing wrong with that in itself but the fear is that the more traditional style pub doesn't then get clientèle from this demographic and slowly struggles to exist over time as old buggers die off... until all that is left is this style. Now that is slightly over egging the pudding - I hope.

The only hope is old buggers (like me! Though at 54 I'm not that old I don't think) indoctrinating my children with real pubs... which does include new micro-pubs/craft ale and cask new premises but which continue the concept of a pub where the beer is to be enjoyed with conversation. Thus they can make their choices but also have grown up appreciating that real pubs are a real option and not just smelly places full of weird old people. I do know that both my sons have many friends that wouldn't be seen in either of my usual haunts because as they say themselves "that's for old blokes and warm beer". My eldest has managed to convert a couple of friends but my younger son ploughs a lonely furrow in his peer group, who see Spoons as the only venue.
didds

[redsturgeon]

Looking at their website it seems that their target audience is clearly people in their 20's and thirties - http://www.drafthouse.co.uk/

And its classic moulding of the client stuff.

Young people (!!) led to believe this is what a pub "is" thus look for pubs that fit this mould . There's nothing wrong with that in itself but the fear is that the more traditional style pub doesn't then get clientèle from this demographic and slowly struggles to exist over time as old buggers die off... until all that is left is this style. Now that is slightly over egging the pudding - I hope.

The only hope is old buggers (like me! Though at 54 I'm not that old I don't think) indoctrinating my children with real pubs... which does include new micro-pubs/craft ale and cask new premises but which continue the concept of a pub where the beer is to be enjoyed with conversation. Thus they can make their choices but also have grown up appreciating that real pubs are a real option and not just smelly places full of weird old people. I do know that both my sons have many friends that wouldn't be seen in either of my usual haunts because as they say themselves "that's for old blokes and warm beer". My eldest has managed to convert a couple of friends but my younger son ploughs a lonely furrow in his peer group, who see Spoons as the only venue.
didds

Isn't the 'spoons thing mostly cost driven for that demographic.

John

[didds]

Isn't the 'spoons thing mostly cost driven for that demographic.

John

possibly - but at the typical prices in spoons its aimed at "everybody" I guess. But in the town I live in - aside from the Spoons - there are two pubs where you will typically get a pint for as little as £3. In fact one of them always has a pint on at £2.70. It may not always be the most exciting but there is a point for £2.70. Its has loopy juice scrumpy out of the barrel for £2.60 a pint. Even its carling is cheap (I am told). So it can't ALL be price (albeit I accept spoons is cheaper than those prices even) driven, as there are alternatives selling beer pretty damned cheaply.

TBH Spoons - aside form maybe post 9pm, and Fri and sat night strikes me more of a cheap eat out option with cheap grog thrown in on top, rather than an out and out cheap place to get drunk.


didds

[jfgw]

Proper pubs have chairs with wooden legs. The tables also have wooden legs or, sometimes, cast iron (maybe the occasional converted sewing-machine table). The decor includes a number of miscellaneous items hung from the walls and placed upon high shelves. In some cases, even the paintwork is of historical importance. Staff are polite, know how to hold a glass and serve a full measure, and quickly learn customers' preferences (including preferred drinking vessels). Clientele are varied and friendly. Spirits range from clear to dark brown and include a selection of pure malts. Pink, orange, green, etc. are not colours of drinks. Drinks are consumed for their flavour and never for the sole purpose of intoxication. Real Ale is on good form and is preferably served by gravity. Hand-pulled beer (in my part of the world) is never served through a sparkler.

It is regrettable that a number of proper pubs have have suffered at the hands of interior designers who, it appears, served their apprenticeships designing operating theatres with plain, light-coloured walls and steel-framed furnishings. Such an emotionally sterile environment is wholly inappropriate for a "real" pub.

Julian F. G. W.