Mods

[melonfool]

I won't be making a note I'm afraid. I do a lot of moderation via the phone on the train, at work, in bed..... I am not going to be keeping a notepad, even a virtual one, with me to make such notes.

As has been said, full post deletions are only soft deleted, so other mods can still see them (which is useful if you come to mod and some previous moderation has taken place, you can see how things escalated and what standard has been set etc) so the answer to this is to ditch the 'in post' text deletion and just delete whole posts for small transgressions.

Which I am sure most people actually *don't* want us to do!

Mel

The TMF way actually worked pretty well: for every deletion send PM to user, attaching copy of deleted post and brief summary of broken rule/reason for deletion.

Then you knew what was wrong and had the text to make alterations and repost.


However reinventing the wheel is much more fun!

GS

Your sarcasm is noted.

We are not 'reinventing the wheel' - we are working with a different type of software. In order to moderate and send a PM I have to follow these steps:

1) read report
2) go to the post
3) go back to the report to remind myself why the post was reported if it's not obvious
4) read the post
5) read the thread to see if the post is 'in keeping', if there have been other issues, if the offending post is quoted anywhere
6) decide whether to amend or delete the post
7) click 'open in new window' on the poster name (and this isn't that easy as the report obscures the name and it's a pain on the phone)
8) do whatever to the post (deleting is the easiest option - we have to put a reason for deletion so other mods can see that)
9) if it's not a deletion then I can cut and need to write a mod box
10) I might decide to write a mod box post on a deletion just so people get it in their notifications if they are following the thread, or as a call to order
11) if I do delete text I can just 'cut' it, which is easy on the PC, not so easy on the phone. If I do, I am extremely unlikely to find it possible to paste that somewhere else to remind me what it said or provide it to the poster
12) go to the new window and click 'PM user'
13) send a PM to that user to tell them what has happened - note, if I have made a deletion there is no point in this process where I hold a copy of the original post. If I had to copy and paste it into the PM then that would require an extra step
14) enter into various responses to the poster who decides to question the decision

Actually, if a poster PM'd to say "is there any chance I could have a copy of the deleted post please" then I would do that when I was back on the PC as I could go back to the soft-deleted post, open it, copy it, and paste it into the PM reply. But I am not going to be faffing around doing that every time, nor when I am on the phone. I would imagine it might be one time in 100 that someone might need it - not many of the posts I delete have anything worthwhile in them. If they do, that is when we use the edit option - we can see there is worthwhile content, so we are happy to leave that and just remove the upsetting aspect.

it's not as simple as 'just do it this way' as it might seem from the other side of the screen. Sometimes I just have to leave reports and hope someone else deals with them as I can't work out how to do what is needed, it's too fiddly on the phone or, rarely, I can't understand what the problem is!

Mel

[dspp]

I will add to Mel's note the point that TMF Mods were paid staff. We at TLF are volunteers. This is the crux of why TMF chose not to keep up the boards.

Sometimes I will drop a note to the errant poster saying what I have done and why. But if I have a flight to catch, or a pint to run for, then I won't - there just is not the time. I also know that I have unread messages (PMs) sitting in my sentmail box because the errant posters aren't picking up their PMs. So I wonder why I bothered to take the extra time to tell them why they were edited, since they obviously can't be bothered at their end.

regards, dspp

[Raptor]

1) read report
2) go to the post
3) go back to the report to remind myself why the post was reported if it's not obvious
4) read the post
5) read the thread to see if the post is 'in keeping', if there have been other issues, if the offending post is quoted anywhere
6) decide whether to amend or delete the post
7) click 'open in new window' on the poster name (and this isn't that easy as the report obscures the name and it's a pain on the phone)
8) do whatever to the post (deleting is the easiest option - we have to put a reason for deletion so other mods can see that)
9) if it's not a deletion then I can cut and need to write a mod box
10) I might decide to write a mod box post on a deletion just so people get it in their notifications if they are following the thread, or as a call to order
11) if I do delete text I can just 'cut' it, which is easy on the PC, not so easy on the phone. If I do, I am extremely unlikely to find it possible to paste that somewhere else to remind me what it said or provide it to the poster
12) go to the new window and click 'PM user'
13) send a PM to that user to tell them what has happened - note, if I have made a deletion there is no point in this process where I hold a copy of the original post. If I had to copy and paste it into the PM then that would require an extra step
14) enter into various responses to the poster who decides to question the decision


Mel

Mel, you make it sound too easy....... I hate getting late to the "party" and then having to try to clean up all the posts. Then we "should" if GS and others seem to wish, PM every poster.....

I do not know what the "traffic" is like anymore on the wider boards but the HYP ones go in phases, usually one or two threads seem to "spark" it. I love the Investment Trust board as I only really have to look out for one or two posters.....

Raptor.

[melonfool]

I think we differ there Raptor - I almost exclusively respond to reports, thus the boards are 'self-policing'. I don't read them and make my own decisions about what to do (I happened across some incorrect quote nesting last night and corrected it along with csearle, but that was only because I had previously put a mod box on that thread which has sadly left me getting notifications for it - I've not worked out if you can turn those off). Or, if I do, that is very rare. If I have recently been involved in a thread myself then I will usually refer any issues to another mod.

But, if there are multiple deletions no, I don't PM. But I do often do a mod box post so people get a note that way.

I certainly have no intention of trying to read every post on every board I moderate, that would be insane!

Mel

[PinkDalek]

… But, if there are multiple deletions no, I don't PM. But I do often do a mod box post so people get a note that way. ...

Unless things have changed, I didn't think Mod Box posts resulted in notifications (where not turned off anyway). Thus many not knowing they'd been modded (not that that's a bad thing in some cases). Here's a thread I started on this last August (which moved on to Rules and stuff):

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=6630

I think some Mods started and still do also post a reply, such that those who have their notifications set receive them.

Would someone mind checking on this one, with a Mod Box comment only?

[mc2fool]

I will add to Mel's note the point that TMF Mods were paid staff.

Yes, and I rather suspect that because of that the TMF system would have been set up to make post deletions much quicker and easier than described here, along with sending the notifications TMF did automatically.

I don't know, but I'll bet that on clicking on a report (in a list of outstanding ones) it would have gone to a page showing the TMF Mod the report, the post/thread being reported, and two text fields for the mod to enter whatever they wanted to say to each of the poster and the reporter, and a set of buttons, Delete/Ignore/etc. And on clicking Delete the system just did it all: deleting the post and sending the emails with the mod's comments and original post/report to each party appropriately. At least, that's the way I'd design it

I'd have thought, given how long it's been around, that there must be a phpBB extension to similarly make moderation quicker and easier than described, and also (automatically) send out out notifications, surely? .....

[PinkDalek]

I will add to Mel's note the point that TMF Mods were paid staff. We at TLF are volunteers. ...

Even TMF's sysyem was not automatic. In some cases, involving mass deletions, they didn't notify the posters concerned.

This is the crux of why TMF chose not to keep up the boards. ...

Oft described as such but not according to TMF. More to do with the then upcoming software changes, which had no commercial justification to continue this side of the pond.

[melonfool]

… But, if there are multiple deletions no, I don't PM. But I do often do a mod box post so people get a note that way. ...

Unless things have changed, I didn't think Mod Box posts resulted in notifications (where not turned off anyway). Thus many not knowing they'd been modded (not that that's a bad thing in some cases). Here's a thread I started on this last August (which moved on to Rules and stuff):

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=6630

I think some Mods started and still do also post a reply, such that those who have their notifications set receive them.

Would someone mind checking on this one, with a Mod Box comment only?

Sorry, I should have been clearer.

A mod box in an existing post will not generate a notification.

I was talking her about doing an extra post ('reply' on the thread) with only a mod box, to note that a number of posts have been deleted, maybe give the reason, maybe ask for more restraint etc - and that will give a notification if people have them on. That is why I do that.

Mel

[Lootman]

This is the crux of why TMF chose not to keep up the boards. ...

Oft described as such but not according to TMF. More to do with the then upcoming software changes, which had no commercial justification to continue this side of the pond.

I am not sure we can always believe a company when it cites reasons for shutting down a product, service or line of business. And I'd be willing to believe that the cost of moderating the boards was a factor. It is perhaps not a coincidence, in that regard, that two of the three souls who were paid (inter alia) for moderating the boards were no longer at TMF six months later.

I recall estimating that the cost of moderating TMF Boards was in the order of several tens of thousands of pounds a year, possibly as high as 100K a year. That requires a belief that the Boards would bring in eyeballs and paying customers to the tune of at least that much to justify continuing with them.

I've pretty much never looked at fool.co.uk since then. I'd be interested in knowing the percentage reduction in traffic that resulted from the closure of the Boards

[melonfool]

Ah, reading Mc2Fool's comment - I missed a step - we also have to go back and close or delete the actual report.

I've recently picked up some new boards and, in order to immerse myself in my extended role, I went and read a few of my new boards - and found a few unclosed reports. As they are old, I have closed them without further action.

One thing I dislike here is that a post can only be reported once. So, if you report and someone else already has, it just says 'this post has already been reported'. But as a mod I'd like to see if something was reported more than once, to see if there is strength of opinion, but also that someone might want to report for a different reason. Though, I'd be perfectly happy if they reported a different post for attention and put the post number of the post they want looked at and the reason - I think we could cope with that.

Mel

[mc2fool]

Even TMF's sysyem was not automatic. In some cases, involving mass deletions, they didn't notify the posters concerned.

I'm not aware of that happening, at least from my experience, but if it did it doesn't mean the system wasn't automated: possibly the mods had a choice of deletion with/without notification.

Indeed, with the formulaic email, both to poster and reporter, with exactly the same phrases being used again and again, I suspect that not only was it automated in a way similar to my previous comment, but also that the TMF system had a set of standard blurbs that the mods could insert into the notifications at a simple click.

"Thanks for the report. We've removed the post and explained why to the poster."
"Thanks for the report. We've removed the posts and closed the spammers account."
"We have removed the post to which you were replying, so we have removed your reply - below - which was left dangling."
etc...

[Gengulphus]

What really incensed me is referred to in my last post on the BT thread where some sensitive souls took exception to my phraseology and without more ado the mod (not dspp) removed what was said to be the offensive sentence. A quick referral to me (or a response to those apparently offended to tell them to grow up) would have solved the 'problem'. I do not have form and always try to be reasonable but without expressions of opinions what is the point of the Board?

My opinion has been variously called offensive, insulting and even abusive. For goodness sake!

Let's take a look at what happened in the BT thread (viewtopic.php?f=15&t=11627):

In post #138197 (viewtopic.php?f=15&t=11627&start=20#p138197) you posted something that led Raptor to delete the entire text of the post, replacing it with a "Text removed. Personal attack." moderator message.

In post #138265 (viewtopic.php?f=15&t=11627&start=20#p138265) you posted to say that it wasn't a personal attack. Clearly there's a difference of opinion between you and Raptor about that, and equally clearly, board participants were unlikely to be able to shed any light on that, as nobody is able to check up on what post #138197 actually said and few (if any) will even have a memory of it - certainly I don't, and if I've understood what you said in post #138345 (viewtopic.php?f=15&t=11627&start=40#p138345) correctly, not even you do!

And even if other board participants did have the deleted text to check up on, it could well just be that you and Raptor have different standards about what constitutes a personal attack. For instance, does a remark need to identify a specific person to be "personal", or does it just have to be about other posters? Your later deleted remark from post #138277 (viewtopic.php?f=15&t=11627&start=20#p138277), which you say in post #138345 was "Now we are getting whistlers in the dark" (and that fits in with my recollection) clearly doesn't identify a specific person - and equally clearly is about other posters, so the two lead to different ideas about what counts as "personal". Also, saying someone is a "whistler in the dark" is pretty mild stuff, but it's less than complimentary - so it's a question of how high or low the moderators' threshold is for something to count as an "attack"... (I get the feeling that "whistler in the dark" is pretty close to that threshold, given that it was deleted from post #138277 but when you repeated it in post #138345 it wasn't, despite clearly having come to the moderators' attention. The different context and/or different moderators having dealt with the two posts presumably made the difference about exactly which side of the dividing line it ended up on.)

So basically, I don't see what on earth you were trying to achieve with either of posts #138265 or #138345 that wouldn't have been done better by a PM to the moderator concerned asking them to explain what you'd done wrong and/or to reconsider. Or indeed by a thread on this board about whether the moderation standards are too strict about things like this - which this thread is doing, among other things.

Also, as far as I'm concerned, post #138345 and various responses to it did far more to upset the flow of the thread than the moderator deletion of your comment "Now we are getting whistlers in the dark". That comment told me that you were of the opinion that there was some whistling in the dark going on, but not what it was being done about - which are helpful things to know when engaging in reasonable discussion about that opinion! Something along the lines of "I think the idea that BT's pension deficit is ... is whistling in the dark" tells readers your opinion more clearly, so helps to avoid off-target replies - and because it describes the idea concerned rather than the people, it is that much less likely to be seen as "personal".

To sum up the above, I'd suggest avoiding posting disagreements with moderator decisions in the thread in which those decisions happened - basically, they're a cure worse than the disease - and also avoiding posting descriptions of other posters, even ones you feel are quite innocuous, because the moderators may well not agree with you about that.

Gengulphus

[melonfool]

Even TMF's sysyem was not automatic. In some cases, involving mass deletions, they didn't notify the posters concerned.

I'm not aware of that happening, at least from my experience, but if it did it doesn't mean the system wasn't automated: possibly the mods had a choice of deletion with/without notification.

Indeed, with the formulaic email, both to poster and reporter, with exactly the same phrases being used again and again, I suspect that not only was it automated in a way similar to my previous comment, but also that the TMF system had a set of standard blurbs that the mods could insert into the notifications at a simple click.

"Thanks for the report. We've removed the post and explained why to the poster."
"Thanks for the report. We've removed the posts and closed the spammers account."
"We have removed the post to which you were replying, so we have removed your reply - below - which was left dangling."
etc...

Some of us used to get a few personal additions to those though - like "I agree with you but......" etc

I think the auto-wording was preset, but I still think they did a lot of manual intervention.

Mel

[mc2fool]

Some of us used to get a few personal additions to those though - like "I agree with you but......" etc

I think the auto-wording was preset, but I still think they did a lot of manual intervention.

Yes, indeed, I agree and didn't mean to imply that the canned phrases were the only text that there ever was.

My real point though was that their system was clearly set up to make moderation as easy as possible, and I'd be surprised, given how long phpBB has been around, if there isn't an extension that could make life easier for the mods here as well.

(But happily admit I've never set up a phpBB site, so haven't looked into it myself....)

[redsturgeon]

To sum up the above, I'd suggest avoiding posting disagreements with moderator decisions in the thread in which those decisions happened - basically, they're a cure worse than the disease - and also avoiding posting descriptions of other posters, even ones you feel are quite innocuous, because the moderators may well not agree with you about that.

Gengulphus

I'd say that is more than a suggestion...any post disagreeing with a moderator decision posted anywhere but on this board is off topic and should be deleted.

As for descriptions of other posters...the basic rule is "play the ball not the man", then you will avoid any grey areas.

John

[melonfool]

It seems the contention, to a degree, is whether the post referred to posts by other people or to the actions of BT!

Mel

[PinkDalek]

Even TMF's sysyem was not automatic. In some cases, involving mass deletions, they didn't notify the posters concerned.

I'm not aware of that happening, at least from my experience, but if it did it doesn't mean the system wasn't automated: possibly the mods had a choice of deletion with/without notification. ...

O/T but it involved a legal case and TMF were advised to remove the posts whilst the cases were ongoing, nothing to do with TMF, and you may not have been involved on the many threads. People only found posts were no longer there, when they were attempting to find the subject matter. Needless to say, many of the culprits went down. The posts were never reinstated.

Edit: I've found the email which included this extract from the SFO website There is an Order of the Court which states publication of any report of the proceedings/or part of the proceedings, namely The Trial of the defendants should not be reported. and from TMF We haven't sent any deletion notices because the deletions had to be done in the database (rather than manually) because of the number of posts involved.


Not disagreeing with what you've said mind you. They may have had a nuclear option not involving emailing the posters concerned.

[Gengulphus]

To sum up the above, I'd suggest avoiding posting disagreements with moderator decisions in the thread in which those decisions happened - basically, they're a cure worse than the disease - and also avoiding posting descriptions of other posters, even ones you feel are quite innocuous, because the moderators may well not agree with you about that.

I'd say that is more than a suggestion...any post disagreeing with a moderator decision posted anywhere but on this board is off topic and should be deleted.

As for descriptions of other posters...the basic rule is "play the ball not the man", then you will avoid any grey areas.

Understood, but as neither a site admin nor a moderator, I cannot say definitively what the rules of the site are other than by quoting app.php/rules. And while those rules arguably imply both of those, they don't state them explicitly, and I really don't want to get involved in arguing whether they do imply them. So I chose to phrase them as suggestions - essentially, I simply cannot say anything more authoritative than that...

Gengulphus

[Gengulphus]

Even TMF's sysyem was not automatic. In some cases, involving mass deletions, they didn't notify the posters concerned.

Hmm... I certainly remember a case where I had a post deleted in a mass deletion at TMF and didn't get my text back - as I did want it, I emailed the moderator concerned to ask for it back, got a reply expanding a bit on why it had been deleted, and so needed to email again to say yes, I'd understood that but I was only asking for the text to be returned... I did get it back after that - I suspect it was a busy moderation day and the moderator had got into a bit too much of a routine and hadn't noticed what I was asking for the first time around!

I think that's probably different from the cases you're talking about, as I think I did get a notification (it's certainly the easiest way for me to have known who the moderator was that had done the deletions). But it's the business of getting my text back that has stuck in my mind, not the notification, so I'm uncertain about that. And my main point is just to confirm that TMF's system was not entirely automatic - whether that showed up as sometimes deleting without any notification at all or with a notification that didn't return text is a detail that doesn't affect that conclusion.

Gengulphus

[mc2fool]

O/T but it involved a legal case and TMF were advised to remove the posts whilst the cases were ongoing, nothing to do with TMF, and you may not have been involved on the many threads. People only found posts were no longer there, when they were attempting to find the subject matter. Needless to say, many of the culprits went down. The posts were never reinstated.

Edit: I've found the email which included this extract from the SFO website There is an Order of the Court which states publication of any report of the proceedings/or part of the proceedings, namely The Trial of the defendants should not be reported. ...

Eh? "many of the culprits went down"?!? You mean TMF posters got sent to prison?! O/T or not, I'm sure I'm not the only one who is very intrigued and wants to hear more!