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HYP Practical discussions

Formerly "Lemon Fool - Improve the Recipe" repurposed as Room 102 (see above).

Can we discuss Unilever (and other shares with average yields) on the HYP Practical board?

Yes
28
88%
No
4
13%
 
Total votes: 32

Itsallaguess
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Re: HYP Practical discussions

#154568

Postby Itsallaguess » July 24th, 2018, 4:53 am

Raptor wrote:
Of course you right we are discussing a share that is not currently HY so shares would be a choice but a tough choice really as the wording would lead to op saying keep an eye on it for a rising yield that meets HYP and buy.


I think this gets to the nub of the issue Raptor.

I personally think it would be a real shame if we're in the situation where a large number of people already own a particular share in their HYP, perhaps bought when the yield was appropriate for a HYP, and yet find themselves in the position where they can't discuss that share in the context of 'keeping an eye on it' for the next time it becomes 'available'.....

I think that once a HYP gets to a certain size, and has a certain level of diversification already, it's these little gems of companies that can look to be really compelling in terms of new additions if they were to satisfy the necessary criteria at that time.

For us as a HYP community not to be able to keep a 'watchful eye' on the outskirts of the HYP criteria, especially where it seems that we're all agreeing that it's a class company, seems to me to be a real shame, and that's before we get onto the point regarding more 'noise' actually being generated in this instance due to the decision of not being able to discuss these things on HYP Practical, than might have been generated if it had simply been allowed to continue, so long as it was under the above remit.....

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: HYP Practical discussions

#154585

Postby Gengulphus » July 24th, 2018, 8:04 am

PinkDalek wrote:
Raptor wrote:Tough one. The 2nd part advising looking at may cause concern. I would add mod box, move it to strategy and leave a shadow. That way I would curtail following posts from going down the route we are currently going.

At the risk of getting repetitive, you'd move it to High Yield Shares & Strategies - general?

It's reasonable enough to move it to High Yield Shares & Strategies - general, as long as it's being bought for a high-yield strategy. As I've said, guidance about HYP strategies (both here and previously on TMF) says that the shares selected for purchase by HYPs must have high yields (at the time), and it's not enough (as some would have it) that just the portfolio yield is high, but that's not binding on other high-yield strategies...

Gengulphus

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Re: HYP Practical discussions

#154593

Postby Lootman » July 24th, 2018, 8:52 am

Itsallaguess wrote:I personally think it would be a real shame if we're in the situation where a large number of people already own a particular share in their HYP, perhaps bought when the yield was appropriate for a HYP, and yet find themselves in the position where they can't discuss that share in the context of 'keeping an eye on it' for the next time it becomes 'available'.....

Things can get very contrived here if this is all taken to its logical conclusion. It seems that the evolving rule is that we can discuss any share that at some point in time was high yield, and that probably includes most UK shares that pay a dividend at all, since yields in general soar at market bottoms like 2001 and 2008.

And then the rule tries to govern what we can say about those shares, i.e we can discuss them from a "hold" perspective but not from a "buy" or "add" perspective?

But what about a decision whether to sell a former HY share that now has a low or zero yield? Surely that is OK for discussion as well, even though the arguments used might be identical to those used for buying it?

Example - I ask the Board whether I should sell Unilever because its yield is too low, and replace it with a higher yielding substitute. Others tell me all the qualities of the share and recommend that I keep it. How is that different from the exact same post advocating it for purchase?

My own view is that if a share was ever HY then it is within scope. And that a portfolio can still be HY even if some of its individual constituents are not. I also cannot help but think that these enduring debates only exist because we have two HY boards instead of one, leading to endless "this board or that board" arguments and confusion.

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Re: HYP Practical discussions

#154598

Postby Gengulphus » July 24th, 2018, 9:13 am

Itsallaguess wrote:I'm struggling to keep up with the current position regarding Unilever on the HYP Practical Board, but can I just check that if the following was posted, and discussed, would it be allowed?

"I own Unilever in my HYP. I bought it when it was yielding a suitable 'HYP-qualifying' yield. I think it's a sufficiently good company, with such a good long-term record of steadily increasing dividends, that I would advocate that people perhaps keep an eye on it, and maybe consider it for purchase if the yield ever re-enters the 'HYP-qualifying' yield zone. Whilst it might never yield a huge percentage-return when compared to some of the higher-yielding HYP options, I think the company deserves it's place in a diversified HYP as a good 'portfolio-ballast candidate' if it can be purchased at the right yield."

Would there be anything controversial in the above statement that would disqualify such a post being made on the HYP Practical Board?

I would regard it as OK on the "HYP" aspect - it's only suggesting that it can be bought if and when it meets the guidance for HYPs - but a bit dubious on the "Practical" aspect: it's not discussing a current practical situation. It is suggesting that one should "keep an eye" on Unilever, which is a practical course of action - but it's a very low-key one, and I'd be inclined to think of it as too low-key to really qualify. One specific reason for that is that just about any share might become a HYP share in the future, so if suggesting people "keep an eye" on Unilever is OK, presumably so is the same suggestion about any other share.

On its own, though, "a bit dubious" would not be enough to make me (as a user) report the post, and were I a moderator, I probably wouldn't reckon it was worth even a moderator comment - I'd just keep an eye on how the discussion went. If there were more in the post concerned, though, that might well influence my view - for instance, if a post started by saying that Unilever was not a suitable HYP purchase because of its low yield, and then went on to say the above, that would seem fine to me - the poster might even be attempting to forestall comments about inconsistency if they'd said elsewhere that their HYP contained Unilever. On the other hand, if it said the above as a springboard for an extensive analysis of Unilever, emphasising all of its good points and downplaying its low yield, that would definitely not be OK!

That's only about the "posted," part of your question - the "and discussed," part is another matter. My feeling is that most discussion of it wouldn't be OK - it would be far too likely to go into extensive analysis of Unilever, or strategic generalities not especially relevant to the practical situation with regard to Unilever, or opinions about what should or shouldn't be allowed on the board (i.e. basically moderation matters), or other off-topic areas. I.e. normally, I don't think much on-topic discussion is likely to result from it - there really isn't much I can think of to say other than "Yes, keeping an eye on candidates that are close to qualifying may be a good idea, at least for those who are still making purchases for their HYPs". So I suspect that either little discussion would result or it would soon need moderator intervention. But that can't be judged properly without knowing the nature of the subsequent discussion, and I can certainly imagine circumstances (albeit highly unlikely ones IMHO) in which extensive subsequent discussion was entirely OK. (E.g. the following day Unilever announces a major accounting issue, its price drops 25% and its yield increases by a factor of 4/3, so people reply saying "The opportunity those who are doing this were waiting for has arrived", others disagree saying that the accounting issue has made the dividend unsafe, and so it goes on...)

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Re: HYP Practical discussions

#154616

Postby Gengulphus » July 24th, 2018, 10:28 am

Lootman wrote:Things can get very contrived here if this is all taken to its logical conclusion. It seems that the evolving rule is that we can discuss any share that at some point in time was high yield, and that probably includes most UK shares that pay a dividend at all, since yields in general soar at market bottoms like 2001 and 2008.

Rather than 2003 and 2009? :-J

Lootman wrote:And then the rule tries to govern what we can say about those shares, i.e we can discuss them from a "hold" perspective but not from a "buy" or "add" perspective?

But what about a decision whether to sell a former HY share that now has a low or zero yield? Surely that is OK for discussion as well, even though the arguments used might be identical to those used for buying it?

Example - I ask the Board whether I should sell Unilever because its yield is too low, and replace it with a higher yielding substitute. Others tell me all the qualities of the share and recommend that I keep it. How is that different from the exact same post advocating it for purchase?

It cannot be exactly the same post: they're advocating that you hold rather than sell, when the alternative post that you're hypothesising is advocating buying. It might be based on exactly the same analysis of the company, and a reader might decide to buy on the basis of that analysis. But it won't contain the same advice, and readers are of course free to use what they read in any way they see fit: the board's rules can only be about what people post, not about what they think or do (other than posting).

And the other difference is that you posted asking the board whether you should sell Unilever, which hopefully means that you do actually face the practical situation of holding Unilever in your HYP and that you did actually buy it at a time that its yield was high. If those aren't true and you're actually just fishing for people's analyses of the company because you're thinking of buying, you're not adhering to the "Practical" aspect of the board. That won't necessarily be easy to detect, of course - but it's a rather pointless thing to do: you have to create and take care not to deviate from an untrue story, and you'll limit the responses you get to those with a HYP perspective. It would be less work and more rewarding from the point of view of getting a good range of responses to post on Share Ideas...

Or there is the possibility that you're not facing that practical situation, and are simply inventing the story of holding the share in your HYP and wondering whether to sell in order to wind the board up. If so, well, either you maintain that story really well, never either revealing the wind-up or pushing it to the point that people catch on, which makes the wind-up rather pointless, or you don't. If you don't, well, in the position of the moderators, I would at the very least give you a very serious warning that the moderators do not, repeat NOT, appreciate having their time deliberately/recklessly wasted for your private amusement, and that any repeat (or similar) occurrence in the future (no matter how distant) will result in a permanent ban from the site. And I'm not at all certain I wouldn't just go for an immediate permanent ban...

For the avoidance of doubt, none of the above is any sort of accusation against you. I've used the word "you" in it purely because you used the word "I" in your example, and the two uses are equally hypothetical! Also, I'm not a moderator and so cannot say they would actually act as I said - just that my sympathies would be entirely with them if they were to do so.

Gengulphus

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Re: HYP Practical discussions

#154621

Postby melonfool » July 24th, 2018, 10:39 am

Gengulphus wrote: I'm not a moderator and so cannot say they would actually act as I said - just that my sympathies would be entirely with them if they were to do so.

Gengulphus


I am. And I can't. Sympathy most definitely required!

Mel

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Re: HYP Practical discussions

#154625

Postby StepOne » July 24th, 2018, 10:41 am

Gengulphus wrote:One might try to get that guidance changed. The way to do that that is reasonably friendly to the moderators is to make a proposal as to what the guidance should say and argue it out here, making suitable adjustments for any objections that are raised. No promises that the site owners and moderators will accept whatever that comes up with, but they're reasonable people and if presented with a well-thought-out and reviewed suggestion, will probably adopt it (with one important condition, that I'll get on to below).


Hi Gengulphus,

That was my thinking. I posted a poll to get some sort of guage of opinion, thinking we could have some follow up discussion, and come up with a proposal. However the mod response to the poll was
IMHO you can put as many polls as you like, however it is unlikely to change our approach as Mods in this area, and your posting polls is basically counterproductive as it chews up our bandwidth repeatedly on the same topic.


So I'm not sure how one can go about trying to change the TLF guidelines.

StepOne

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Re: HYP Practical discussions

#154630

Postby melonfool » July 24th, 2018, 10:47 am

The way to discuss the guidance is to read the guidance: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8651 and then make a point based on that guidance, maybe a suggestion etc.

Not to do a random poll about one share as a result of one minor issue. If we had polls every time we moved a thread or deleted a post the whole site would grind to a halt - I think that was the point dspp was making.

And I've not seen any support for a list of allowable and disallowed shares anyway so I don't think the poll is helpful. Since there are over 350 shares in the FTSE350 it could take a while to go through them all!

Mel

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Re: HYP Practical discussions

#154651

Postby StepOne » July 24th, 2018, 11:49 am

melonfool wrote:The way to discuss the guidance is to read the guidance: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8651 and then make a point based on that guidance, maybe a suggestion etc.

Not to do a random poll about one share as a result of one minor issue. If we had polls every time we moved a thread or deleted a post the whole site would grind to a halt - I think that was the point dspp was making.

And I've not seen any support for a list of allowable and disallowed shares anyway so I don't think the poll is helpful. Since there are over 350 shares in the FTSE350 it could take a while to go through them all!

Mel


I did read the guidelines, and the poll was not random, nor was it about one share! It actually said "Can we discuss Unilever (and other shares with average yields) on the HYP Practical board?"

Note the 'and other shares with average yields' bit.

Depending on the level of support I would then have suggested that the piece of the guideline which reads "yields above the FTSE100 average" be changed to "allow shares of average or above yield".

It doesn't sound too controversial? If the mods - you and dspp - hadn't over-reacted, then this 5 page long thread would probably never happened!

And your point about too many polls clogging up the boards is ridiculous - it is simply not true. There are more posts by mods justifying their actions than there are posts from users asking for guideline changes.

I realise I am making the situation worse by continuing to respond, and I am sorry for that to all board users, but when I see responses like this, then I'm afraid I cannot help myself. Apologies once more.

StepOne

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Re: HYP Practical discussions

#154657

Postby melonfool » July 24th, 2018, 12:05 pm

StepOne wrote:

Depending on the level of support I would then have suggested that the piece of the guideline which reads "yields above the FTSE100 average" be changed to "allow shares of average or above yield".

It doesn't sound too controversial? If the mods - you and dspp - hadn't over-reacted, then this 5 page long thread would probably never happened!

And your point about too many polls clogging up the boards is ridiculous - it is simply not true. There are more posts by mods justifying their actions than there are posts from users asking for guideline changes.

StepOne


I simply did NOT say there were too many polls clogging up the boards, so something I didn't say is not true - I'm fine with that.

Anyway, you would not need to ask for your suggestion to be added because the guidelines (which you read) already say "Discussion of potential shares, and of shares which have been selected in the past, is acceptable on the HYP Practical Board."

So that's sorted, isn't it?

Your wording actually would not have sorted it as ULVR is usually under the FTSE average.

Mel

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Re: HYP Practical discussions

#154659

Postby melonfool » July 24th, 2018, 12:13 pm

Lootman wrote:In practice I do not see many discussions where someone actually advises a purchase or sale,


That is exactly what caused the problem here in fact - the thread was about the results of ULVR, which has sometimes been HY, and is in some people's HYPs.

This post viewtopic.php?p=153356#p153356 says: "This is a stalwart and I think should be in all portfolios as a great dependable" (no mention of yield)

Then there was discussion of how the share price would fare. An earlier post had said "Not the highest of yielders I grant you, but I might just buy some more of this HYP mainstay (IMHO)."

So, we had acceptance that it's not 'the highest of yielders' (and we know it's not really even HY by the benchmark in the guidelines), and someone telling the board it should be in every portfolio - not even every HY :Portfolio - but EVERY and referred to as a 'stalwart', but not on the basis of YIELD which is what the board is about. And all of that is really strategy discussion, not 'practical'.

No problem discussing it in general, or even posting the results, but the ensuing discussion about it being in every portfolio was, I think, where things went skew-whiff.

Mel

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Re: HYP Practical discussions

#154662

Postby Lootman » July 24th, 2018, 12:17 pm

melonfool wrote:Your wording actually would not have sorted it as ULVR is usually under the FTSE average.

That is true, and I think the problem is that a rule like that requires both posters and moderators to constant monitor the average dividend yield of the UK market in order to know whether a particular share can be discussed or not. Moreover a share could be constantly moving in and out of that criterion. That does not sound practicable.

That is why I thought a preferable rule is that a share can be discussed if at some time in the past it was a genuine HYP candidate because that reflects the reality that many shares have been eligible in the past but currently are not. And I thought that was the rule although am now not so sure any more :?

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Re: HYP Practical discussions

#154668

Postby melonfool » July 24th, 2018, 12:26 pm

Lootman wrote:
melonfool wrote:Your wording actually would not have sorted it as ULVR is usually under the FTSE average.

That is true, and I think the problem is that a rule like that requires both posters and moderators to constant monitor the average dividend yield of the UK market in order to know whether a particular share can be discussed or not. Moreover a share could be constantly moving in and out of that criterion. That does not sound practicable.

That is why I thought a preferable rule is that a share can be discussed if at some time in the past it was a genuine HYP candidate because that reflects the reality that many shares have been eligible in the past but currently are not. And I thought that was the rule although am now not so sure any more :?


Maybe if you read my whole post and avoid selective quoting you will find therein the answer you so appear to desire.

Mel
Last edited by melonfool on July 24th, 2018, 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: HYP Practical discussions

#154670

Postby Lootman » July 24th, 2018, 12:34 pm

melonfool wrote:
Lootman wrote:
melonfool wrote:Your wording actually would not have sorted it as ULVR is usually under the FTSE average.

That is true, and I think the problem is that a rule like that requires both posters and moderat hiors to constant monitor the average dividend yield of the UK market in order to know whether a particular share can be discussed or not. Moreover a share could be constantly moving in and out of that criterion. That does not sound practicable.

That is why I thought a preferable rule is that a share can be discussed if at some time in the past it was a genuine HYP candidate because that reflects the reality that many shares have been eligible in the past but currently are not. And I thought that was the rule although am now not so sure any more :?

Maybe if you read my whole post and avoid selective quoting you will find therein the answer you so appear to desire.

I did and it didn't, not for me anyway.

I typically only quote the least possible text in order for it to be clear which part of your post I am talking about and, in this case, agreeing with!

But I dispute the fact that this issue has been clarified, not least for the reasons I gave in my last reply to Gengulphus. Honestly, as things stand, I think it is a mess and even Moderators seem to be disagreeing with each other. Otherwise this would not be a 4-page topic, and growing . .

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Re: HYP Practical discussions

#154677

Postby CryptoPlankton » July 24th, 2018, 12:48 pm

While we're at it, are we allowed to discuss mountains on the molehills board? :)

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Re: HYP Practical discussions

#154686

Postby melonfool » July 24th, 2018, 1:13 pm

Lootman wrote:
melonfool wrote:Maybe if you read my whole post and avoid selective quoting you will find therein the answer you so appear to desire.

I did and it didn't, not for me anyway.


So, this in the current guidelines, is not clear enough for you: "Discussion of potential shares, and of shares which have been selected in the past, is acceptable on the HYP Practical Board."

?

Mel

(sorry for mangling your quote, I managed to correct it on my post but you had already replied with the mangled version which I can't change)

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Re: HYP Practical discussions

#154688

Postby Lootman » July 24th, 2018, 1:21 pm

melonfool wrote:So, this in the current guidelines, is not clear enough for you: "Discussion of potential shares, and of shares which have been selected in the past, is acceptable on the HYP Practical Board."?

As that stands, yes, since it would allow discussion of any share that has ever been a candidate for a HYP in the past, which is a much larger universe than those currently eligible.

"Potential" shares might be a thorny one though. If a company that has never paid a dividend is publicly considering a move to start paying a dividend, then one might argue it is a "potential" candidate, and so can be discussed.

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Re: HYP Practical discussions

#154694

Postby melonfool » July 24th, 2018, 1:30 pm

Lootman wrote:
melonfool wrote:So, this in the current guidelines, is not clear enough for you: "Discussion of potential shares, and of shares which have been selected in the past, is acceptable on the HYP Practical Board."?

As that stands, yes, since it would allow discussion of any share that has ever been a candidate for a HYP in the past, which is a much larger universe than those currently eligible.

"Potential" shares might be a thorny one though. If a company that has never paid a dividend is publicly considering a move to start paying a dividend, then one might argue it is a "potential" candidate, and so can be discussed.


Well, not really, no. Because one of the criteria is dividend history.... *shrugs*

"If selected, such shares should have a dividend yield above the average for the FTSE100 index and be drawn from the constituents of the FTSE 350 index. " ('have a dividend' not proposing a dividend), and "Selection criteria may include the yield, the dividend record and a history of increases." (not proposed yield)

I would suggest, if it has never yet paid a divi and has announced that it will start doing, then it should be on the Share Ideas Board really.

Mel

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Re: HYP Practical discussions

#154695

Postby Itsallaguess » July 24th, 2018, 1:32 pm

melonfool wrote:
"Discussion of potential shares, and of shares which have been selected in the past, is acceptable on the HYP Practical Board."


Shares that have potential, but who's yields might not currently 'qualify'?

;)

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: HYP Practical discussions

#154725

Postby Lootman » July 24th, 2018, 3:08 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:
melonfool wrote:"Discussion of potential shares, and of shares which have been selected in the past, is acceptable on the HYP Practical Board."

Shares that have potential, but who's yields might not currently 'qualify'? ;)

From a moderation/rules perspective, part of the problem with that is that you have to actually have the discussion in order to make the determination of whether X truly is or is not a viable "potential" HYP candidate.

Only when that discussion has reached a conclusion can it really be known which HY board it should have been on, and by then it is probably too late to matter anyway.

There are relatively few companies that do not pay a dividend that would immediately become higher yielding. Apple in the US did - it yielded more than the market average as soon as it paid its first dividend. Berkshire Hathaway would probably do the same if it ever starts payouts. Maybe Google. But I doubt there are many UK candidates like that, with huge piles of excess cash and earnings power.

Which perhaps just leaves shares that yield only a bit less than the average and are contemplating dividend increases. And recovery situations like the bank shares that used to be HY but are currently LY or NY :D


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