Dod's farewell.

[Pendrainllwyn]

After a while you can figure out who wrote a post without looking at their Username. Dod is definitely one of those with his distinctive no-nonsense instructive style. Hopefully after a few cold and wet days in the garden you will come back to us.

Pendrainllwyn

[johnw11]

Dod,

I am sorry to find this thread, after following from the original on the HYP board. I will miss your sensible comments, and thank you particularly for introducing me to the Zombie Insurers. I am certainly looking forward to the next set of results from Phoenix to see how they are swallowing the SL business.

I think you just need to take a break and come back refreshed.

Regards

John

[midgesgalore]

Ditto and damn!

midgesgalore

[Gengulphus]

OK Well maybe I just need a bit of time out but the mods in my opinion are way over the top. I find that I cannot make even the most modest comment but am being pulled up. ...

An over-the-top comment if ever I saw one! Just looking at the thread you've posted on most frequently in the last couple of days, you've posted 7 times on it without being pulled up once that I can see. And you've posted another 10 times on other threads (not counting this one, as you're obviously talking about what happened before you started this one) and been pulled up three times that I can see, in the "Trimming Unilever" thread, in the "HSBC Interim Results" thread and again in the "HSBC Interim Results" thread.

There might of course be other posts of yours that were removed entirely, but it is quite clearly NOT the case that you cannot make the most modest comment without being pulled up - there are 14 cases that I can see in the last two days where you made comments and weren't pulled up.

What is probably closer to being the case is that you, just like the rest of us, cannot make even the most modest comments about moderation without being pulled up, except here in the Biscuit Bar. I have the strong impression that the moderators have been becoming stricter about that, probably for the reason that such comments are liable to escalate into extensive discussions about what's happened and whether the moderators are right or not to have taken action. Such discussions are fine in their place, but that place is not taking over another discussion about something completely different!

... Mel was the one yesterday and today would you believe he who I think of as one of the more sensible posters, TJH was making the same threatening comments. 'You need to be careful' or words to that effect. We are not kids being let off the leash.

I'd suggest people read what the moderators actually said - I've provided the three links above to make that fairly easy - and make up their own minds about whether they are "threatening comments".

As I have said on several occasions, they are judge jury and executioner and we get no right of appeal. To me that means that they need to be especially understanding and careful about their judgement but they will not engage in discussion. I am fed up of it.

They will not engage in discussion on the board where the moderation happened. That's for the pretty obvious reason that moderation is generally done to prevent threads from being disrupted, so allowing them to be disrupted by discussions about moderation would be an own goal!

They do engage in discussion about moderation here on the Biscuit Bar. Also, my experience is that they will engage in discussion about it by PM within reason, provided one remembers that they are moderating many people's posts and so one's share of their available time for PMing is likely to be pretty small!

Gengulphus

[CryptoPlankton]

I have full sympathy for Dod101's position. I have taken a break from posting a few weeks ago for a while but decided to return and put some posters on ignore and to stay out of the more hair shirted pyadic forums.

Just how many "hair shirted" (nice) pyadic forums are there? I can't see an argument for any more than a total of... one. If its content and guidelines don't suit then it makes perfect sense to "stay out". (The constant sniping at it is a puzzlement though...?)

Anyway, I too hope that Dod returns. In fact, I'm sure he will. But, while his contributions add a lot to the discussions, he really is his own worst enemy. Being an intelligent chap, I'm sure he must be able to see how, with very minor adjustments to his posting style and content, he could avoid any moderation issues at all. But I think he enjoys being a bit of a rebel (and I admit it can be amusing sometimes, though a bit irritating at others) so it's really up to him how smoothly the comeback goes.

Overly aggressive moderation will be the death of this place for certain.

I don't think that's fair. I don't always agree with decisions I see, but I'm grateful that people give up their time to do the job and I have no doubt it is always done in good faith. I believe the onus is on the users to try to behave in a way that makes the moderators' task as undemanding as possible. Fortunately, most people seem to be able to do so without too much difficulty...

[idpickering]

OK Well maybe I just need a bit of time out but the mods in my opinion are way over the top. I find that I cannot make even the most modest comment but am being pulled up. Mel was the one yesterday and today would you believe he who I think of as one of the more sensible posters, TJH was making the same threatening comments. 'You need to be careful' or words to that effect. We are not kids being let off the leash.

As I have said on several occasions, they are judge jury and executioner and we get no right of appeal. To me that means that they need to be especially understanding and careful about their judgement but they will not engage in discussion. I am fed up of it.

I am grateful for the kind comments but really feel that I will step back for now. Again I want to say thanks to everyone, as I find posting helps me clarify my own thoughts as well as try to impart them for others who may ignore them or otherwise to suit themselves.

Dod

I'm very sorry that it has come to this Dod. You are one of the best, and well qualified to post on these boards. I understand your reasons, and as you know I do agree with your sentiments. I'm hoping you reconsider to be honest, but should this be the end for you here, you will be missed big time. Please feel free to PM me if you want a chat. All the best. No smilie from me today. I wonder how many more will follow Dod's lead. Shame shame shame. I hope the powers that be are watching.

Ian.

[BBLSP1]

Dod - Take a break if you so wish, but then please come back. I do not post often, but visit several times a day and you are one of the posters I always make a point of reading. Yes, at times the Mods may be 'heavy', but it keeps this site 'adult' in a way that many other web sites are not, so better to err on that 'heavy' side than descend in to the free for all found elsewhere, even if at times it does disrupt the free flow of ideas and opinions.

[OZYU]

Hi Dod,

I understand and endorse your reasons.

Your posts are always honest and worth pondering on, and at least we get your thoughts as an HY investing practitioner with a broader outlook , not some regurgitated hollow 'party line', or irrelevant harking back to TMF 'archaeology'.


There is something sick about the way this thread has been immediately 'parked' imho, a farewell thread of thanks should have been left where it originated, something is rotten...and not just in the State of Denmark. But you know my thoughts on that subject, it will only make that particular board staler rather than vibrant, with less and less active posters.


All the best with whatever you plan in the future


Ozyu

[Arborbridge]

I've been "modded" I've been deleted, but mostly I can see the reason and just move on. Indeed, I have several times agreed that the mod had to do what he did, but I had my say.

Dod makes interesting comments which are generally of what one might call the "HYPlight" type. They aren't usually questioning whether HYP is a good thing or not, which is a crucial point. There are posters who seem either to misunderstand HYP or are knowingly or unknowingly trying to divert the board to something different. Occasionally people who are attempting to run a HYP are given derogatory labels, which is a bit bizarre on a board intended for HYPers. One wonders what their agenda is.
However, Dod is NOT one of these and his positivity has usual been very clear. As people have already commented (and I agree) he has given us some good suggestions which have made some of us (so far!!) a little wealthier, and hopefully, safer.

Arb

[ian56]

Morning Dod,

A bit of a shock for me this morning coming to this thread. Although a poster-lite I am an avid reader and you are one of my go-to posters for your commentary and pithy comments on a variety of subjects. You have influenced my thinking regarding my own portfolio, with which I am now much happier, with your evident knowledge of markets and experience of running a portfolio over many years. I hope that this will be but a temporary hiatus and that you will be back soon.

Very best wishes whatever you decide.

[Gengulphus]

There are posters who seem either to misunderstand HYP or are knowingly or unknowingly trying to divert the board to something different. Occasionally people who are attempting to run a HYP are given derogatory labels, which is a bit bizarre on a board intended for HYPers. ...
However, Dod is NOT one of these ...

I'm sorry, but Dod DOES make comments about other posters such as "True disciples of course would ignore that argument and simply go for the higher yield." in this post, implying that the posters concerned are being irrational, or "Anyone, HYP income seeker or not, is living in a fool's paradise if to them price fluctuations are a matter of supreme indifference, particularly when the price fluctuation is downwards." in another post. They're not grossly derogatory, but the first implies that the people being described are irrational and the second that they are fools, making them dismissive of the people being described and mildly derogatory. And they are at best totally unnecessary (the first of those examples could have been left out of the post concerned without detracting in any way from the argument it made) and often a smokescreen for not bothering to provide an actual argument (the second of those examples doesn't actually provide any argument why one should pay attention to price fluctuations or why one should pay more attention to them if they are downwards).

Some may dismiss those examples as too minor for anyone to be bothered about, but the idea that no-one will be bothered about them is unrealistic. A board on which such comments are tolerated, especially if they are tolerated from prominent, well-respected posters, can be quite intimidating for newcomers.

And for other posters (even prominent, well-respected ones), there is the "what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander" problem. I could for instance have replied "Anyone, HYP critic or not, is living in a fool's paradise if they think they have a hope in hell of seeing the reasons for every price fluctuation, whether up or down." to the second of the above remarks. If I'm allowed to do so, the stage is set for an escalating exchange of less-veiled derogatory remarks, especially as there will be other posters around who try to judge what is allowable on a board by what they see being tolerated. If I'm not, the discussion is not on a level playing field: one poster is allowed to attack others' rationality, nobody else is. And trying to respond to posts containing such remarks without making them oneself can be quite hard work - enough so that on quite a few occasions (involving quite a few posters, not by any means only Dod) I've given up on making a response.

In Dod's OP, he said "I no longer feel welcome". If he wants to avoid being made to feel unwelcome, he has to avoid behaving in ways that make others feel unwelcome.

Gengulphus

[PinkDalek]

viewtopic.php?p=157946#p157946

[chas49]

https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=157946#p157946

As far as I can tell from the timings, he posted that he was leaving at 5.54pm on 8/8, and has only posted once since then (in a reply to the Farewell thread). The post you linked was before the leaving post.

[bluedonkey]

Dod,

Hopefully your break will be one that heals with time rather than being permanent, and you'll come back refreshed.

BD

[moorfield]

After a while you can figure out who wrote a post without looking at their Username. Dod is definitely one of those with his distinctive no-nonsense instructive style. Hopefully after a few cold and wet days in the garden you will come back to us.

Perhaps he will come back as Dod10101?

Or NotDod101. That would be fun for the mods ...

I hope he does return and tell us where the other end of his garden socket cable is ...

[peterh]

Very sorry to hear this, Dod.

I, like others have said, will miss your contributions to the HYP boards. Having said that, the antagonism directed to you from some quarters was thinly disguised, so I understand your reasons. I hope you'll return though.

Peter

[Eureka1963]

All the best.

[PinkDalek]

https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=157946#p157946

As far as I can tell from the timings, he posted that he was leaving at 5.54pm on 8/8, and has only posted once since then (in a reply to the Farewell thread). The post you linked was before the leaving post.

Yes, you are correct. I picked up the post from my unreads and wasn't thorough enough. The joys of using a mobile is my excuse.

[Lootman]

There are posters who seem either to misunderstand HYP or are knowingly or unknowingly trying to divert the board to something different. Occasionally people who are attempting to run a HYP are given derogatory labels, which is a bit bizarre on a board intended for HYPers. ...
However, Dod is NOT one of these ...

Some may dismiss those examples as too minor for anyone to be bothered about, but the idea that no-one will be bothered about them is unrealistic. A board on which such comments are tolerated, especially if they are tolerated from prominent, well-respected posters, can be quite intimidating for newcomers.

And for other posters (even prominent, well-respected ones), there is the "what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander" problem. I could for instance have replied "Anyone, HYP critic or not, is living in a fool's paradise if they think they have a hope in hell of seeing the reasons for every price fluctuation, whether up or down." to the second of the above remarks. If I'm allowed to do so, the stage is set for an escalating exchange of less-veiled derogatory remarks, especially as there will be other posters around who try to judge what is allowable on a board by what they see being tolerated. If I'm not, the discussion is not on a level playing field: one poster is allowed to attack others' rationality, nobody else is. And trying to respond to posts containing such remarks without making them oneself can be quite hard work - enough so that on quite a few occasions (involving quite a few posters, not by any means only Dod) I've given up on making a response.

In Dod's OP, he said "I no longer feel welcome". If he wants to avoid being made to feel unwelcome, he has to avoid behaving in ways that make others feel unwelcome.

i think you are correct to observe that what may start out as minor abrasive comments can escalate into full-blown knockdown-dragout fights. But that is not to say that such an outcome can be assumed from the start, and that therefore we should adopt a zero tolerance approach to any and every slightly strident post. That's rather like the so-called "broken windows" theory of policing, where stamping out minor "quality of life" crimes is deemed to reduce major crimes. At best that is a hotly debated theory.

My own view is that a little "cut and thrust" is fine, desirable even. It adds a little emotion and frisson to what can be a very dry topic. And it's really no different than what you and I surely deal with in real life, where people do not behave impeccably all the time, but most behave decently most of the time.

It was my understanding that TLF moderation would work this way, i.e. with some discretion, common sense and proportion. That minor misdemeanours would be let go but serious felonies would be stamped upon. And in my own case I'd say the Mods have been successful - I do not get the sense that the Mods here are anal retentive about suppressing comments, at least not in the way that I always felt that TMF was.

That said, it seems clear that others are finding the moderation leaning a tad too much towards the oppressive side. And I think there can be a mindset with a moderator of "don't just sit there, moderate something" whereas I would probably let things slide and give people the benefit of the doubt, unless matters deteriorate beyond a reasonable threshold.

Might newcomers be deterred by spirited and direct debate? Perhaps. But then others might be deterred by strict moderation. Whatever policy is adopted will attract certain types and deter other types. That comes down to what kind of people we want to see here, and my vote would not be for those who feel they have to be impeccable all the time, but rather those who are a little more human with a broader emotional range. Dod is a good example who can be feisty, but his heart is in the right place and he makes enough good contributions to be forgiven the odd foible.

I trust the community to decide what kind of site it wants and will support. I'm not sure that "zero tolerance moderation" is that.

[chas49]

......it seems clear that others are finding the moderation leaning a tad too much towards the oppressive side. And I think there can be a mindset with a moderator of "don't just sit there, moderate something" whereas I would probably let things slide and give people the benefit of the doubt, unless matters deteriorate beyond a reasonable threshold.

I do understand what you are saying here. I can't speak for the mod team as a whole, but I do believe that in general we don't go hunting for things to moderate! When we take action, it's either because someone has reported it, or because we've been looking at a thread we're interested in reading, and have come across something we would report if we weren't a moderator on that board.

Just to clarify for everyone, most of the moderators only mod on certain parts of the forum, and can't moderate elsewhere - so we would simply report just like anyone else. The only board which is moderated by all of us (I think) is Polite Discussions - which has generally been the area needing most moderation.

I certainly haven't seen much evidence of "don't just sit there, moderate something". Possibly in the first few months of the forum this may have been a little of the flavour (I probably closed down some DAK posts for too much discussion, but we have developed a better feel now for how far to let things run (I think).) And the fact that we discuss general moderation principles in this particular board must help too. (just no discussion of moderation elsewhere please!)