Donate to Remove ads

Got a credit card? use our Credit Card & Finance Calculators

Thanks to Bhoddhisatva,scotia,Anonymous,Cornytiv34,Anonymous, for Donating to support the site

On the Internet...

Formerly "Lemon Fool - Improve the Recipe" repurposed as Room 102 (see above).
XFool
The full Lemon
Posts: 12590
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 7:21 pm
Been thanked: 2599 times

On the Internet...

#163977

Postby XFool » September 3rd, 2018, 6:25 pm

Somebody on the Polite Discussions board has come out as a self declared "sock puppet".

OK, I seem to hear the replies: "What do you expect on there?" Well...

I guess this is a warning to the more naive (or straightford?) of us. I've never in the past gone in much for filtering people - even those I totally disagree with. However, I have previously filtered one LMF poster for what seems to me to be quite similar reasons. There is no point in filtering the above poster as they are now 'orf' (before the inevitable ban) promising to return after Brexit with a new 'handle'.

Looks like in future, user filtering will have to become a more used tool in the toolbox.

Of course, on the Internet, how do we know that declaring oneself to be a "sock puppet" is not, in itself, a pose and tactic?

csearle
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4748
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 2:24 pm
Has thanked: 4785 times
Been thanked: 2076 times

Re: On the Internet...

#164024

Postby csearle » September 4th, 2018, 12:21 am

If the admission is genuine then it is against the forum rules. It is, as they say in Formula 1, "under investigation".

Chris

PinkDalek
Lemon Half
Posts: 6139
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 1:12 pm
Has thanked: 1589 times
Been thanked: 1800 times

Re: On the Internet...

#164132

Postby PinkDalek » September 4th, 2018, 12:56 pm

Would that be the “no trolling” forum specific rule? If so, it seems to be a regular thing over at Polite Discussions, although it is rare that posters admit to it.

The reason for this reply is shouldn’t “No trolling” be in the LMF Rules themselves, rather than only mentioned at PD and thus suggesting it is fine on all the other boards?

PD

melonfool
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2939
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:18 am
Has thanked: 1365 times
Been thanked: 793 times

Re: On the Internet...

#164168

Postby melonfool » September 4th, 2018, 2:40 pm

Surely, if someone admits to trolling they are either in trouble for being a troll because they admitted it, or if they are lying, then they are in trouble for trolling because saying you are something or purporting to support a view you do not is quite literally the definition of trolling.

Troll-ception, if you like.

Mel

Lootman
The full Lemon
Posts: 18544
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 3:58 pm
Has thanked: 626 times
Been thanked: 6487 times

Re: On the Internet...

#164171

Postby Lootman » September 4th, 2018, 2:55 pm

csearle wrote:If the admission is genuine then it is against the forum rules. It is, as they say in Formula 1, "under investigation".

Chris

My understanding was that the use of a "sock puppet" is the adoption of one or more additional accounts for the purpose of making it appear that there is more support for your view than is actually the case. So account A also uses account B to agree with himself, or attack those who disagree with A, or up-vote himself etc.

As such the rules would appear to ban the use of more than one account AT THE SAME TIME.

If someone goes away for a while and then decides to "start afresh" with a new account to lose any baggage associated with the previous account, or to deter stalkers, or some such, then isn't that something much more benign? Presumably in that case the old account is defunct and never used again.

Lootman
The full Lemon
Posts: 18544
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 3:58 pm
Has thanked: 626 times
Been thanked: 6487 times

Re: On the Internet...

#164180

Postby Lootman » September 4th, 2018, 3:14 pm

melonfool wrote:Surely, if someone admits to trolling they are either in trouble for being a troll because they admitted it, or if they are lying, then they are in trouble for trolling because saying you are something or purporting to support a view you do not is quite literally the definition of trolling.l

I agree but he did not admit to trolling which, to me anyway, is the adoption of a false position purely to aggravate or inflame others. From what I see, his views are genuine and sincere.

All I saw him admit to is taking a break from TLF along with an intention to resume later with a new account.

melonfool
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2939
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:18 am
Has thanked: 1365 times
Been thanked: 793 times

Re: On the Internet...

#164184

Postby melonfool » September 4th, 2018, 3:21 pm

Lootman wrote:
melonfool wrote:Surely, if someone admits to trolling they are either in trouble for being a troll because they admitted it, or if they are lying, then they are in trouble for trolling because saying you are something or purporting to support a view you do not is quite literally the definition of trolling.l

I agree but he did not admit to trolling which, to me anyway, is the adoption of a false position purely to aggravate or inflame others. From what I see, his views are genuine and sincere.

All I saw him admit to is taking a break from TLF along with an intention to resume later with a new account.


You saw what you wanted to see - this is what he said:

"I was fairly equivocal about the EU before the vote. But since the proEU supporters had been pretty insufferable at parties I decided to cheer enthusiastically for the other side irrespective of the rights and wrongs of the detail.

Plus the trolling opportunities are limitless, I mean people take the bait and lose their mind over it. I really don’t have a firm opinion, and it doesn’t really affect me, but who cares when you have the fun of playing devils advocate in a good online debate."

definition of trolling, right there.

Mel


viewtopic.php?f=63&t=12805&start=360

Lootman
The full Lemon
Posts: 18544
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 3:58 pm
Has thanked: 626 times
Been thanked: 6487 times

Re: On the Internet...

#164187

Postby Lootman » September 4th, 2018, 3:28 pm

melonfool wrote:
Lootman wrote:
melonfool wrote:Surely, if someone admits to trolling they are either in trouble for being a troll because they admitted it, or if they are lying, then they are in trouble for trolling because saying you are something or purporting to support a view you do not is quite literally the definition of trolling.l

I agree but he did not admit to trolling which, to me anyway, is the adoption of a false position purely to aggravate or inflame others. From what I see, his views are genuine and sincere.

All I saw him admit to is taking a break from TLF along with an intention to resume later with a new account.

this is what he said:

"I was fairly equivocal about the EU before the vote. But since the proEU supporters had been pretty insufferable at parties I decided to cheer enthusiastically for the other side irrespective of the rights and wrongs of the detail.

Plus the trolling opportunities are limitless, I mean people take the bait and lose their mind over it. I really don’t have a firm opinion, and it doesn’t really affect me, but who cares when you have the fun of playing devils advocate in a good online debate."

definition of trolling, right there.

You said he admitted to trolling. He did not.

He said something that, in your opinion, fits your definition of trolling. And that is fine, but people accuse others of trolling all the time. Often the person who realises that he/she has started losing the debate will accuse the other of trolling. It's a debating tactic.

But my point is that he did not admit to trolling, which was the claim. Whether others think he trolls is another matter and, I suspect, highly subjective.

PinkDalek
Lemon Half
Posts: 6139
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 1:12 pm
Has thanked: 1589 times
Been thanked: 1800 times

Re: On the Internet...

#164198

Postby PinkDalek » September 4th, 2018, 3:52 pm

Lootman wrote:As such the rules would appear to ban the use of more than one account AT THE SAME TIME.


Which rules?

As previously, the main Board rules don't appear to mention Trolling nor Sock Puppets. It is only the PD board specific rules that mention "no trolling".

I'd agree that reinventing oneself should be permissible, for a variety of reasons, and that's what the individual concerned appears to be proposing. Perhaps the current account should be closed first.

Either way, I trust someone has alerted or alerts the individual concerned to the thread here.

melonfool
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2939
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:18 am
Has thanked: 1365 times
Been thanked: 793 times

Re: On the Internet...

#164201

Postby melonfool » September 4th, 2018, 3:54 pm

It's not MY definition, it is the accepted definition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

feel free to do your own Googling.

Lootman wrote:people accuse others of trolling all the time. Often the person who realises that he/she has started losing the debate will accuse the other of trolling. It's a debating tactic.


This is irrelevant, as no-one accused him of trolling, so that's a strawman comment.

Lootman wrote:But my point is that he did not admit to trolling,


he did, from the thread: - "I think Sundance13 also rumbled my love for a good troll a while back and has also been too polite to nail me for it."

"I think you spotted me during my passionate advocation for the invasion of Southern Ireland to solve the border crisis. I may have been a bit too obvious there..."



Mel

Lootman
The full Lemon
Posts: 18544
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 3:58 pm
Has thanked: 626 times
Been thanked: 6487 times

Re: On the Internet...

#164202

Postby Lootman » September 4th, 2018, 4:01 pm

melonfool wrote:
Lootman wrote:But my point is that he did not admit to trolling,

he did, from the thread: - "I think Sundance13 also rumbled my love for a good troll a while back and has also been too polite to nail me for it."

"I think you spotted me during my passionate advocation for the invasion of Southern Ireland to solve the border crisis. I may have been a bit too obvious there..."l

OK, I did not see that part. Nonetheless, if I understood Xfool's top post correctly and his reference to a "sock puppet", then his concern was more the admission that after his break he would restart with a new account. I am not aware that is necessarily a problem.

This entire topic appears to be a spillover from a fight between two "Polite" regulars. Maybe it should go to the new room 101?

PinkDalek
Lemon Half
Posts: 6139
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 1:12 pm
Has thanked: 1589 times
Been thanked: 1800 times

Re: On the Internet...

#164204

Postby PinkDalek » September 4th, 2018, 4:07 pm

Lootman wrote:This entire topic appears to be a spillover from a fight between two "Polite" regulars. Maybe it should go to the new room 101?


I've only recently been alerted to that new board which appears, primarily, to concern moderation decisions:

viewforum.php?f=69

Lootman
The full Lemon
Posts: 18544
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 3:58 pm
Has thanked: 626 times
Been thanked: 6487 times

Re: On the Internet...

#164205

Postby Lootman » September 4th, 2018, 4:09 pm

PinkDalek wrote:
Lootman wrote:This entire topic appears to be a spillover from a fight between two "Polite" regulars. Maybe it should go to the new room 101?

I've only recently been alerted to that new board which appears, primarily, to concern moderation decisions:

viewforum.php?f=69

Clariman wrote that:

' “Room 101” may also be used when an argument between 2 or more posters is acting as a distraction on a board. The moderators may request that the discussion be moved to Room 101. For those who knew The Motley Fool website, it would be akin to their Civil Discussion Forum.'

Of course, only one of the two is arguing here . . .

TUK020
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2038
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 7:41 am
Has thanked: 761 times
Been thanked: 1175 times

Re: On the Internet...

#164208

Postby TUK020 » September 4th, 2018, 4:14 pm

Lootman wrote:My understanding was that the use of a "sock puppet" is the adoption of one or more additional accounts for the purpose of making it appear that there is more support for your view than is actually the case. So account A also uses account B to agree with himself, or attack those who disagree with A, or up-vote himself etc.

thank you for explaining - I had completely lost the plot there, but there again I don't get out much on the internet. This is pretty much the only forum I use.

melonfool
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2939
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:18 am
Has thanked: 1365 times
Been thanked: 793 times

Re: On the Internet...

#164209

Postby melonfool » September 4th, 2018, 4:16 pm

TUK020 wrote:
Lootman wrote:My understanding was that the use of a "sock puppet" is the adoption of one or more additional accounts for the purpose of making it appear that there is more support for your view than is actually the case. So account A also uses account B to agree with himself, or attack those who disagree with A, or up-vote himself etc.

thank you for explaining - I had completely lost the plot there, but there again I don't get out much on the internet. This is pretty much the only forum I use.


That is just Lootman's preferred definition though....

Mel

PinkDalek
Lemon Half
Posts: 6139
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 1:12 pm
Has thanked: 1589 times
Been thanked: 1800 times

Re: On the Internet...

#164213

Postby PinkDalek » September 4th, 2018, 4:21 pm

Lootman wrote:
PinkDalek wrote:
Lootman wrote:This entire topic appears to be a spillover from a fight between two "Polite" regulars. Maybe it should go to the new room 101?

I've only recently been alerted to that new board which appears, primarily, to concern moderation decisions:

viewforum.php?f=69

Clariman wrote that:

' “Room 101” may also be used when an argument between 2 or more posters is acting as a distraction on a board. The moderators may request that the discussion be moved to Room 101. For those who knew The Motley Fool website, it would be akin to their Civil Discussion Forum.'


So he did, in an Announcement I hadn't spotted and You may also be directed here if you are in a detailed discussion or argument with another poster which is acting as a distraction on another board. over there.

Lootman
The full Lemon
Posts: 18544
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 3:58 pm
Has thanked: 626 times
Been thanked: 6487 times

Re: On the Internet...

#164215

Postby Lootman » September 4th, 2018, 4:24 pm

melonfool wrote:
TUK020 wrote:
Lootman wrote:My understanding was that the use of a "sock puppet" is the adoption of one or more additional accounts for the purpose of making it appear that there is more support for your view than is actually the case. So account A also uses account B to agree with himself, or attack those who disagree with A, or up-vote himself etc.

thank you for explaining - I had completely lost the plot there, but there again I don't get out much on the internet. This is pretty much the only forum I use.

That is just Lootman's preferred definition though....l

If you have a better one do let us know.

However Chris was talking about the TLF rules around these issues and, as such, it would be good to have an "official" definition of terms like "sock puppet" and "troll", if the expectation is that Lemons know what they can and cannot do here. Otherwise we are all just going to assume our own "preferred" definitions, thereby causing problems.

Whether adopting a "devil's advocacy" position to try and make a point constitutes trolling is a debate that reasonable people can have, as is the idea of reinventing oneself with a new account.

melonfool
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2939
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:18 am
Has thanked: 1365 times
Been thanked: 793 times

Re: On the Internet...

#164218

Postby melonfool » September 4th, 2018, 4:30 pm

Lootman wrote: it would be good to have an "official" definition of terms like "sock puppet" and "troll", if the expectation is that Lemons know what they can and cannot do here. Otherwise we are all just going to assume our own "preferred" definitions, thereby causing problems.



Maybe start a new thread asking the admins to consider that?

Mel

Clariman
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3267
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 12:17 am
Has thanked: 3077 times
Been thanked: 1557 times

Re: On the Internet...

#164223

Postby Clariman » September 4th, 2018, 4:43 pm

Lootman wrote:Clariman wrote that:

' “Room 101” may also be used when an argument between 2 or more posters is acting as a distraction on a board. The moderators may request that the discussion be moved to Room 101. For those who knew The Motley Fool website, it would be akin to their Civil Discussion Forum.'

Of course, only one of the two is arguing here . . .

Indeed I did write that :) . The key phrase is "The moderators may request that ...." so I would only expect a discussion to be moved here at the request of a Mod.

The main purpose of the board would also involve a moderator ... i.e. if a Mod has answered your moderation query and you are still unhappy.

The only completely unsolicited message I would expect on the board is to alert Admin to some problem or other that has been missed e.g. if there has been a long discussion about the site on the Biscuit Bar which requires input from Admin and which has not been answered - something like "BTW folks - have you missed this discussion .... It could do with your input."

I sincerely hope that it is the quietest board on the site, but it has a purpose - a twin purpose. :D

Hope that clarifies things.

Clariman


Return to “Room 102 - Site Issues, Complaints & General Chat”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests