The Lemon Fool

Posted: **November 28th, 2018, 9:46 am**

Moderator Message:
The OP has asked for all of his posts to be deleted so that thread has now gone. Other posts will disappear as time permits.

Posted: **November 28th, 2018, 11:03 am**

I think a better policy than deleting all of someone's posts on their request would be editing them down to something like "[Removed at author's request]" placeholder. If they simply disappear entirely from the middle of threads, the flow of the thread may become very difficult to follow to someone who comes across it later; with some sort of placeholder, people can at least see where the gaps are even if they cannot see what was previously in them.

But actually, I think an even better policy would be that it simply isn't feasible to remove everything a user has said from the site if they've posted many posts: even deleting all of their posts sounds from your "as time permits" comment to be a big job, but what about all the quotes of their posts??? And if the posts themselves disappear but the quotes don't, is the author really going to be happier about only a selection of their output remaining visible rather than all of it, especially as that selection is likely to have been largely selected as points that people disagree with??? It would at least seem worth double-checking that point with the author...

So I think that it would be far better to treat submitting posts to the site to basically include a gift of the right to publish them on the site, that like all true gifts cannot be unilaterally taken back. Return of such a gift can be requested, but is at the site's discretion and should be refused if it creates too much moderator work - even if the schedule for that work is only "as time permits".

If the site does adopt that policy, it would probably be a good idea for the site rules to say something about it. If they were a formal legal document, I think it would say something like "By submitting a post, the author grants TLF an irrevocable non-exclusive license to publish it on their website". I imagine you'd want something a good deal less formal than that to fit in with the existing style of the rules! But something just to make it clear that it's not a matter of keeping the author's continuing permission to publish would be a good idea IMHO.

Gengulphus

Posted: **November 28th, 2018, 11:53 am**

Gengulphus wrote:I think a better policy than deleting all of someone's posts on their request would be editing them down to something like "[Removed at author's request]" placeholder. If they simply disappear entirely from the middle of threads, the flow of the thread may become very difficult to follow to someone who comes across it later; with some sort of placeholder, people can at least see where the gaps are even if they cannot see what was previously in them.

But actually, I think an even better policy would be that it simply isn't feasible to remove everything a user has said from the site if they've posted many posts: even deleting all of their posts sounds from your "as time permits" comment to be a big job, but what about all the quotes of their posts??? And if the posts themselves disappear but the quotes don't, is the author really going to be happier about only a selection of their output remaining visible rather than all of it, especially as that selection is likely to have been largely selected as points that people disagree with??? It would at least seem worth double-checking that point with the author...

So I think that it would be far better to treat submitting posts to the site to basically include a gift of the right to publish them on the site, that like all true gifts cannot be unilaterally taken back. Return of such a gift can be requested, but is at the site's discretion and should be refused if it creates too much moderator work - even if the schedule for that work is only "as time permits".

If the site does adopt that policy, it would probably be a good idea for the site rules to say something about it. If they were a formal legal document, I think it would say something like "By submitting a post, the author grants TLF an irrevocable non-exclusive license to publish it on their website". I imagine you'd want something a good deal less formal than that to fit in with the existing style of the rules! But something just to make it clear that it's not a matter of keeping the author's continuing permission to publish would be a good idea IMHO.

Gengulphus

All good points duly noted and I will take this over to our Moderator hut where we huddle around the stove and talk through such stuff.

John

Posted: **November 28th, 2018, 12:08 pm**

A poster has previously had all their posts, including quotes, removed. It didn't seem to be a big deal but I'm not sure how it was done.

As well as the points made, this is a data protection issue. If someone's username can be shown to be linked to their own details (as I believe mine can, for example, as I use it on other sites), then their name and posts in that name are data and the data subject had the right to be forgotten.

If TLF has a legitimate reason for not enforcing that right then that reason must be documented in the data privacy statement.

Mel

Posted: **November 28th, 2018, 1:27 pm**

Can I thank John and Mel for letting us know about these issues.

I am careful to avoid disagreements with TLF moderators but I did get into a HUGE ding-dong with the TMF ones. This was shortly before TMF closed its boards so those moderators may have had excuses that I was unaware of for their attitudes.

However it blighted my opinion of moderators and I appreciate hearing the efforts of TLF moderators in playing fair, complying with legislation and "good practice". Knowing that a recently started thread was removed at the request of its OP means a lot to me. Especially as I was submitting a post to that thread as it vanished.

Posted: **November 28th, 2018, 2:41 pm**

Discussion all noted. I have messaged the poster in question to ask if they still wish all their posts and userid to be removed. Sometimes people decide things in the heat of the moment so I think it is good to have the time to reconsider. However, the window is time-limited. All posts and userid will be deleted as requested if I do not hear by 5pm. That may leave some disjointed discussion but things are not perfect. Note that I may not carry out the deletion until a convenient time. There is no automation to this process.

Clariman

Posted: **November 28th, 2018, 3:36 pm**

Urbandreamer wrote: I did get into a HUGE ding-dong with the TMF ones. This was shortly before TMF closed its boards so those moderators may have had excuses that I was unaware of for their attitudes.

Funnily enough I had the opposite experience. I had my issues with the TMF Mods but towards the end I got the sense that they had mostly given up on being strict, perhaps because they knew the end was nigh.

On the subject I'd favour users having the right to request the removal of all their posts if that is important to them and if it is practicable to achieve. It's true that it may sometimes lead to odd-looking gaps in the discussion. But then that can happen anyway with the removal of a post or posts for other reasons. It's just a price we pay for having moderation at all.

In a sense that is like the situation we have with the "Ignore" function. Then you also have gaps. You no longer see that person's posts but you still see what they wrote when they are requoted by others.

Posted: **November 28th, 2018, 7:33 pm**

Lootman wrote:Funnily enough I had the opposite experience. I had my issues with the TMF Mods but towards the end I got the sense that they had mostly given up on being strict, perhaps because they knew the end was nigh.

I have no complaint that they were strict. Or indeed that they may have felt my posts inflamitory. If I felt that either was their opinion then I would have understood and been less upset. The ding-dong basicly boiled down to, "I don't like the way that you are treating me", "Tough we have the power to silence you about your opinion of us". Though stated simply as "We have deleted your post and if you continue we will close your account", so I said my goodby's to my friends on the Fool and left.

The post that I was working on here expressed my sympathy for the OP in having his posts removed and feeling the need to leave. Much the same was the cause of the ding-dong and my resultant views of TMF moderators. Hence my need to thank John and Mell for their explinations.

Ps I respect your firm views Lootman, of which some I agree and others I disagree just as firmly. Saddly the ones that we disagree upon are the ones that might require moderation, because we both feel as strongly as we do. Were it not for legal requirments I would argue that TLF should have a bear pit for the likes of us.

Posted: **November 28th, 2018, 8:02 pm**

Clariman wrote:Discussion all noted. I have messaged the poster in question to ask if they still wish all their posts and userid to be removed. Sometimes people decide things in the heat of the moment so I think it is good to have the time to reconsider. However, the window is time-limited. All posts and userid will be deleted as requested if I do not hear by 5pm. That may leave some disjointed discussion but things are not perfect. Note that I may not carry out the deletion until a convenient time. There is no automation to this process.

Clariman

I'm in favour of someone being able to 'disappear' from here should they wish.

But they should be prevented from ever setting up another account under different details. Difficult to prevent but you can block the email address/name/IP address etc.

If someone REALLY wants to troll then they can re-register under a different name and email address but in the TMF days, they were soon recognised, outed and humiliated.

HYD

Posted: **November 29th, 2018, 2:49 am**

melonfool wrote:A poster has previously had all their posts, including quotes, removed. It didn't seem to be a big deal but I'm not sure how it was done.

As well as the points made, this is a data protection issue. If someone's username can be shown to be linked to their own details (as I believe mine can, for example, as I use it on other sites), then their name and posts in that name are data and the data subject had the right to be forgotten.

If TLF has a legitimate reason for not enforcing that right then that reason must be documented in the data privacy statement.

Fair point, but if it's correct, I very much doubt that "as time permits" is a legitimate timescale for the deletion under the legislation!

Also, suppose that's done and all details about the user concerned are removed from the site - and then someone posts something along the lines of "<User Name> once posted a suggestion about that, which was ...". The site has now again got data about that user that can be linked to their own details...

My underlying point being that "the right to be forgotten" is an informal, none-too-precise description of the rights defined in the legislation. If someone's posts have impressed me enough, I'll remember them no matter how much they try to insist on their 'right to be forgotten' - indeed, the more they try to insist on it, the longer my memory of them is likely to persist!

Gengulphus

Posted: **November 29th, 2018, 8:21 am**

I didn't say anything about "as time permits". I am aware of the timeframes required, I didn't happen to mention them.

Yes, I used the informal description. If you want to know the full GDPR details I'm happy to provide them. But you're right, it does not involve performing brain surgery to literally make every individual forget someone.

Mel

Posted: **November 29th, 2018, 8:55 am**

The phrase "as time permits" was mine and was intentionally vague.

John

Posted: **November 29th, 2018, 9:45 am**

melonfool wrote:I didn't say anything about "as time permits". I am aware of the timeframes required, I didn't happen to mention them.

I know. But I said some things about what TLF is doing about a user leaving and asking for their posts to be deleted here. I voiced my thoughts in my initial response; you brought up a point about some legal requirements that I'd failed to mention; I brought up the point that what TLF has said they're doing might not meet those legal requirements because of the timescales. I wasn't telling people that you'd said anything about "as time permits" (or indeed any other aspects of the timescales), any more than you were telling people that I'd said anything about the GDPR legal requirements...

melonfool wrote:Yes, I used the informal description. If you want to know the full GDPR details I'm happy to provide them. But you're right, it does not involve performing brain surgery to literally make every individual forget someone.

Thanks for the offer to supply me with the full GDPR details, but I won't need to trouble you! ;-) I can easily and much more quickly look them up myself in the (unlikely) event that I actually need them, or (more likely) that I find myself with a strong enough wish to know them. But in this thread, my wish is only that the site owners and moderators are aware of the issues, not to work out the details - that's their job! (And not incidentally one I think I can help them with: previous attempts have left me convinced that their preferred approach to such matters is simply too different from mine.)

Gengulphus

Posted: **November 29th, 2018, 4:38 pm**

Gengulphus wrote:My underlying point being that "the right to be forgotten" is an informal, none-too-precise description of the rights defined in the legislation. If someone's posts have impressed me enough, I'll remember them no matter how much they try to insist on their 'right to be forgotten' - indeed, the more they try to insist on it, the longer my memory of them is likely to persist!

I think the idea of wanting all of your posts removed is not to eradicate the memory of you in the minds of the universe. That would be hard to achieve as a matter of biology. But rather to remove the documentary record of what you wrote.

It won't be 100% effective since you may have been requoted. Another Lemon might also have made a copy of your post. But there is reasonable doubt about any such copy, quote or memory. It might have been altered.

Surely the real idea is that it will start a process whereby you will be gradually forgotten. For example there were some prolific posters on TMF who did not migrate over here and I have mostly forgotten about them, or recall them but can't recall their TMF name. One can gradually disappear in that way.

I notice from your profile that you have never thanked another Lemon. Does that indicate that you being "impressed" with another's post is a rather rare and special event?

Posted: **November 29th, 2018, 7:07 pm**

Lootman wrote:Surely the real idea is that it will start a process whereby you will be gradually forgotten. For example there were some prolific posters on TMF who did not migrate over here and I have mostly forgotten about them, or recall them but can't recall their TMF name. One can gradually disappear in that way.

No, that is not the intention - not least of all because it would be a pointless and unmeasurable intention anyway. This is solely about *data*, NOT about human memory.

The right under GDPR is to have data erased. The tabloid vernacular has become 'the right to be forgotten' - I was lazily using that reference rather than the real right.

Mel

Posted: **November 29th, 2018, 7:51 pm**

melonfool wrote:
Lootman wrote:Surely the real idea is that it will start a process whereby you will be gradually forgotten. For example there were some prolific posters on TMF who did not migrate over here and I have mostly forgotten about them, or recall them but can't recall their TMF name. One can gradually disappear in that way.

No, that is not the intention - not least of all because it would be a pointless and unmeasurable intention anyway. This is solely about *data*, NOT about human memory.

I am not sure how you can claim to know what his intention was in asking for all his posts to be deleted. Isn't it just speculation? I suspect that if ten Lemons asked for that they might all have different reasons. But surely one reason might well be to "disappear" as much as possible.

And you can. I joined TMF in 1998 and was a pretty active poster until around 2001. Then I barely posted for a decade, whereupon I returned and started posting again. What was interesting was that there was hardly anyone on TMF in 2011 that I could remember from back in the early days. And I didn't get responses indicating that anyone remembered me either.

Now at that time someone could look up my profile and posts to learn about me if they wanted. But if they had been removed then I doubt that anyone would have noticed or cared. It's only been 2 years since TMF went away and my recall of the folks there is already hazy.

So I think you can vanish. It just takes a few years to achieve that 100%.

I neither know nor care about GDPR but I suspect that there must be reasonable limits to what a site like TLF is expected to do to fully comply in a case like this. Clariman says posts are removed manually. I have made over 4,000 posts. How long would that take him?

Posted: **November 29th, 2018, 7:54 pm**

Urbandreamer wrote:The ding-dong basicly boiled down to, "I don't like the way that you are treating me", "Tough we have the power to silence you about your opinion of us". Though stated simply as "We have deleted your post and if you continue we will close your account",

This is exactly how the moderators behave here.

Posted: **November 29th, 2018, 8:03 pm**

Ashfordian wrote:
Urbandreamer wrote:The ding-dong basicly boiled down to, "I don't like the way that you are treating me", "Tough we have the power to silence you about your opinion of us". Though stated simply as "We have deleted your post and if you continue we will close your account",

This is exactly how the moderators behave here.

Really? I think that there is no such general behaviour. Ok so one might rile a particular moderator on a particular occasion but I don't believe it is systemic.

Regards,
Chris

Posted: **November 29th, 2018, 8:33 pm**

Ashfordian wrote:
Urbandreamer wrote:The ding-dong basicly boiled down to, "I don't like the way that you are treating me", "Tough we have the power to silence you about your opinion of us". Though stated simply as "We have deleted your post and if you continue we will close your account",

This is exactly how the moderators behave here.

Moderator Message:
We have rules, you can see clearly what those rules are. if you don't break the rules then you can post what you like. If you break the rules then your posts will be moderated. If you continue to break the rules you will be banned from posting, either temporarily or permanently. This final sanction has been applied to a tiny number of users. Most people happily post here with no problems at all, long may that continue.

John

Posted: **November 29th, 2018, 10:16 pm**

csearle wrote:Really? I think that there is no such general behaviour. Ok so one might rile a particular moderator on a particular occasion but I don't believe it is systemic.

Regards,
Chris

I tend to agree, however human beings are patern seeking creatures and just as we have lucky socks, touch wood or throw salt over the shoulder, we are apt to believe that a group (even a different group with the same name) will mirror our previous experiences.

FWIW, many of the moderators on TLF posted on TMF and I believe are trying their best to make things work here. Can I repeat that I realy appreciate them explaining events.

The Lemon Fool

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