Reference Library?

[Dod101]

I have no idea if this is the right Board for this or not but following on some discussion in Room 101 re the length of posts, I wonder if there is not a case for a Reference Library for topics such as Rights Issues, and other things like that which some posters notably Gengulphus, are inclined to post on at length when asked. I have no doubt these posts are very helpful to newbies but apart from the fact that many will no doubt be well aware about how they work, the topic is one that comes up from time to time and has been covered previously. It seems to me that it would be helpful to have a reference point to which people can be directed to obtain the required information rather than have a @War and Peace' contribution, as Mel has referred to these posts.

A discussion forum should contain posts of relative brevity; just like the club bore, very long pieces are not conducive to a give and take atmosphere and exchange of ideas, however useful they may be.

Dod

[tjh290633]

I brought this up on the Moderators' Board. I agree with you that this post and a number of others are worthy of collecting into a central place, for ease of reference. Nothing has come of it so far, but if Gengulphus agrees, a number of selected posts could be copied to a "Reference Library" for want of a better name.

TJH

[TUK020]

Excellent idea

[CryptoPlankton]

A discussion forum should contain posts of relative brevity; just like the club bore, very long pieces are not conducive to a give and take atmosphere and exchange of ideas, however useful they may be.

Dod

Whereas the unnecessarily snide use of simile supposedly enhances that atmosphere?

[Dod101]

Whereas the unnecessarily snide use of simile supposedly enhances that atmosphere?

You are living up to your chosen nom de plume. I have no idea what you mean. A 'snide use of simile'? Please explain

Dod

[Lootman]

following on some discussion in Room 101 re the length of posts, I wonder if there is not a case for a Reference Library for topics such as Rights Issues, and other things like that which some posters notably Gengulphus, are inclined to post on at length when asked. I have no doubt these posts are very helpful to newbies but apart from the fact that many will no doubt be well aware about how they work, the topic is one that comes up from time to time and has been covered previously. It seems to me that it would be helpful to have a reference point to which people can be directed to obtain the required information rather than have a @War and Peace' contribution, as Mel has referred to these posts.

A discussion forum should contain posts of relative brevity; just like the club bore, very long pieces are not conducive to a give and take atmosphere and exchange of ideas, however useful they may be.

I don't much like overly long posts myself, as noted on that other topic. Although I have been known to ramble on a bit myself when the mood takes. I don't think the issue is restricted to Rights Issues, however.

One factor I have noticed with "War and Peace" posts is that the author not only makes his or her point, but then goes on to anticipate all the counter-arguments that are possible, and then attempts to pre-empt or forestall them with further arguments. It is preferable to just make your point and then deal with any counter-arguments as they arise. In some cases they won't come up at all. Whilst in other cases they can be dealt with in a manner that makes the thread easier to read and follow.

At my school we had the art of precis drummed into us. That is probably less fashionable these days although I believe that it is still a part of the Civil Service entry exam. Back when I managed people I told my direct reports that I would not read any report that was longer than two pages. I nicked that idea from Ronald Reagan but the idea was to try and get people to think before they write a small novel. The Executive Summary is your friend.

Another idea if a post someone is crafting starts to become too long is to split the post into two sections, along subject matter lines. Like I would here if this were any longer.

[Dod101]

Agreed Lootman. I was taught the art of précis as well and have tended to use it all my life. As you say an Executive Summary is very helpful for anything longer than a couple of paragraphs or an A$ sheet. But I am not particularly criticizing the length of posts here, simply that long posts tend to put people off on a discussion Board, at least they put me off and I expect others as well. I do not know how some sort of library or reference Board can be set up but I would think that a mod would be best placed to consider this.

Dod

[TUK020]

We are in danger of conflating two different points:
- a reference library of carefully crafted answers to points that arise infrequently
- brevity in posts.

Both are desirable. The site organizers can implement the first simply.
Not sure about the second. Perhaps we can start asking the War and Peace folks to provide exec summaries.

[Itsallaguess]

As you say an Executive Summary is very helpful for anything longer than a couple of paragraphs or an A4 sheet.

But I am not particularly criticizing the length of posts here, simply that long posts tend to put people off on a discussion Board, at least they put me off and I expect others as well.

I think the vast majority of the longer posts I've encountered on these boards have been written to try to help and inform individual posters in many cases, so any criticism from perhaps a 'wider audience' might be seen to be missing the point a little...

Whilst some people might not want to wade through what they might see as a lot of detail, I think it's often the detail in them that is actually most helpful to the target audience....

Although I do agree with the idea of some sort of 'Reference Library' for some of the subjects discussed at length on these boards, I also think that this thread seems like a very strange way indeed to try to actually encourage people to invest in that idea...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[Dod101]

I will not repeat here Itsallaguess's post but I need to respond to much of it. I started the thread merely suggesting that some sort of Reference Library for want of a better name might be considered, not in the least as a criticism of the length of the posts or whether they could be condensed but simply because of the very point that Itsallaguess has mentioned; that they are posted to 'help and inform individual posters', not necessarily the majority. That is one reason why it would be helpful for such posters to be referred to a separate reference Board. In any case, this particular subject and many others that keep cropping up have usually be dealt with at length before A new poster will not know that of course.

Why does he think that this thread seems 'a very strange way indeed to try to encourage people to invest in that idea' ? What would be a better way?

Dod

[Itsallaguess]

Why does he think that this thread seems 'a very strange way indeed to try to encourage people to invest in that idea' ?

What would be a better way?

Well I'm really not sure that highlighting the idea of 'the club bore' is at all helpful, that's all.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[Dod101]

Well if that's all, you must be a very sensitive soul. It is I think the problem with these Boards, what might be said 'en passant', can be dissected and analysed when put in writing. I am a bit fed up of apologising when I see nothing to apologise for and although I have not been asked to, I will not be doing so here. I thought we were all grown up.

It would if I may say so, be more helpful to provide your support or otherwise to the general proposition than to pick up on an inconsequential phrase. My use of it anyway was simply to suggest that like the club bore, very long posts tend to switch people off, at least they do me, especially where, as Intsallaguess has said, they are beneficial on the whole to only a very few individuals.

Dod

[Lootman]

We are in danger of conflating two different points:
- a reference library of carefully crafted answers to points that arise infrequently
- brevity in posts.

Both are desirable. The site organizers can implement the first simply.

Not sure about the second. Perhaps we can start asking the War and Peace folks to provide exec summaries.

The second could be implemented easily as well if the software allows a maximum post length. Then if you really have to say a lot, make two posts.

I agree there are two separate issues. As Dod suggests long posts deter people from reading them. They also cause congestion when requoted (which was what the other topic was about) or causes extra work for the person who wishes to respond.

Again a long post is more likely to be misunderstood or misrepresented because the nuggets of wisdom contained therein are buried in hundreds of words of fluff.

And in my more cynical moments I think some people write long posts to deter criticism of the content.

[CryptoPlankton]

Well if that's all, you must be a very sensitive soul. It is I think the problem with these Boards, what might be said 'en passant', can be dissected and analysed when put in writing. I am a bit fed up of apologising when I see nothing to apologise for and although I have not been asked to, I will not be doing so here. I thought we were all grown up.

Dod

I really don't think it has anything to do with sensitivity or being grown up, but you've had it from two angles now so no point in flogging a dead horse...

On the subject of the thread:

If the suggestion is that the posts in question (however they are deemed to qualify for such treatment?) are removed from the body of a thread then I can see far more potential issues with that than the inconvenience (really?) of taking a split second to scroll to the next post: they will lose the context in which they were posted; any remaining replies to the missing post will risk making the flow of the thread less comprehensible; if the post is reached in a central "library" via a search facility then other useful contributions on the subject may well be missed by the person searching. Even if simply copied to the library and also left in the thread, this last point may still apply. So some serious thinking needs to be done if anyone thinks it's really a worthwhile pursuit...

[Lootman]

If the suggestion is that the posts in question (however they are deemed to qualify for such treatment?) . .

That is an important question because I think the presupposition was that it is clear which post (in say a long series of posts) is the definitive last word on the topic, such that it be enshrined in some TLF equivalent of a Hall of Fame.

In practice from what I see it's rarely as clear as that. Even on matters like legal or tax issues, there are often different opinions raised and there may be no consensus on who got the "right answer". Nor is the number of "Thanks" given to a post a reliable indicator of quality. Whereas once you get to investment topics there may be several legitimate opinions that disagree with each other.

Who would be the arbiter of such a process whereby A is deemed to be correct and B wrong? If it is a Moderator then that rather implies that that person is a subject matter expert himself when, in practice, commentators are often the most knowledgeable about a topic. In fact moderating a topic when the moderator does not have specialist knowledge can be a minefield - I recall a TMF Mod trying to do that once when he obviously did not understand the subject matter, and he admitted to me later that he just decided to believe one person rather than the other based on their personal feelings towards those two people.

[csearle]

A discussion forum should contain posts of relative brevity; just like the club bore, very long pieces are not conducive to a give and take atmosphere and exchange of ideas, however useful they may be.

Dod

Whereas the unnecessarily snide use of simile supposedly enhances that atmosphere?

You are living up to your chosen nom de plume. I have no idea what you mean. A 'snide use of simile'? Please explain

Dod

Let me explain how I see it, as I must be in a particularly lucid phase. I think I understand CryptoPlankton's point. Your suggestion that long posts, like a club bore, are not conducive to a give-and-take atmosphere, is, as has been noted, something of a snide remark aimed at those that prefer to make their points comprehensively. Your remark is however clearly not conducive to a give-and-take atmosphere. It seems to me to be right and proper for someone to call out such hypocrisy. C.

[UncleEbenezer]

I have no idea if this is the right Board for this or not but following on some discussion in Room 101 re the length of posts, I wonder if there is not a case for a Reference Library for topics such as Rights Issues, and other things like that which some posters notably Gengulphus, are inclined to post on at length when asked. I have no doubt these posts are very helpful to newbies but apart from the fact that many will no doubt be well aware about how they work, the topic is one that comes up from time to time and has been covered previously. It seems to me that it would be helpful to have a reference point to which people can be directed to obtain the required information rather than have a @War and Peace' contribution, as Mel has referred to these posts.

Or, more briefly, lemonfool should have a FAQ. For what you describe is exactly why FAQs came about, before marketing departments misappropriated the term and started attaching it to all kinds of nonsense.

A discussion forum should contain posts of relative brevity; just like the club bore, very long pieces are not conducive to a give and take atmosphere and exchange of ideas, however useful they may be.

Is it not possible that from time to time a long post is genuinely justified? I think most of us are aware of TL;DR and know well enough that excessive verbosity is likely to go unread.

[Lootman]

Your suggestion that long posts, like a club bore, are not conducive to a give-and-take atmosphere, is, as has been noted, something of a snide remark aimed at those that prefer to make their points comprehensively.

Isn't it possible that assuming that a long post is "comprehensive" is potentially as misleading as saying that a long post is "boring"?

Seems to me that the reality is that some long posts are comprehensive whilst some others are just long-winded and self-indulgent. Likewise some short posts are pithy and succinct, whilst others are shallow and superficial.

The only generalisation that one can make for certain is that a long post is long, and it is legitimate to discuss if the site is best served by such lengthy discourses or not. I think that elevating quality posts might be a good idea, assuming any two people can agree on what is quality. Not so sure we need a special place for long posts and the people who love them.

[Dod101]

I am now sorry I started this thread and will not say much more but on my apparently 'snide' simile, it was intended to be nothing of the sort and I do not think it is, even on a rereading. I did not say that long pieces were 'like a club bore'. What I did say was that 'like the club bore, they are not conducive to a give and take atmosphere and exchange of ideas'. That to me is not the same thing at all although I concede that in these posts it is what the reader gets from them that matters.

The other thing to say is that I am not advocating a Hall of Fame. What I was suggesting was that for certain technical matters re investment, such as Rights Issues, Special General Meetings and suchlike, we might have a reference point where classic stuff like that could be stored and referred to when the question is asked. For instance, the question of rights issues crops up from time to time and has I am sure been dealt with before, as have company liquidations and other similar matters. However I am thinking that this may be a non starter so I will take it no further.

Dod

[jackdaww]

I have no idea if this is the right Board for this or not but following on some discussion in Room 101 re the length of posts, I wonder if there is not a case for a Reference Library for topics such as Rights Issues, and other things like that which some posters notably Gengulphus, are inclined to post on at length when asked. I have no doubt these posts are very helpful to newbies but apart from the fact that many will no doubt be well aware about how they work, the topic is one that comes up from time to time and has been covered previously. It seems to me that it would be helpful to have a reference point to which people can be directed to obtain the required information rather than have a @War and Peace' contribution, as Mel has referred to these posts.

A discussion forum should contain posts of relative brevity; just like the club bore, very long pieces are not conducive to a give and take atmosphere and exchange of ideas, however useful they may be.

Dod

i havnt been following this thread very closely , however....

for those who wish to pursue the minutia of arguments ad nauseum / ad infinitum , fine for them , not for me..

when i see these very long posts , i just skip to the next .