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it's raining deletions

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Arborbridge
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it's raining deletions

#217461

Postby Arborbridge » April 26th, 2019, 11:59 am

Writing on the HYP practical board is now becoming an obstacle course rather than a pleasure.

I've just had a pretty harmless observation deleted as "OT" -one which would have stood perfectly well in previous times. What or earth are we coming to? I've been deleted more times in the past six months (possibly) than in my whole time on TMF.

Am I just getting more rebellious in what I write, or is the moderation becoming more aggressively meedling than it used to be?

My feeling is that it's the latter - and we cannot put a foot wrong before some "well wisher" complains. Frankly, I thought I was one of the more Pyadic investors on the HYP board, but it seems others are either more so, or just like stifling comment for the sake of it - and the mods go along with it. They seem a trigger happy bunch.

Arb.

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Re: it's raining deletions

#217470

Postby PinkDalek » April 26th, 2019, 12:22 pm


dspp
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Re: it's raining deletions

#217477

Postby dspp » April 26th, 2019, 12:40 pm

I have deleted a load of stuff on one thread following alerts. Repeatedly.

You collectively are the people that raise the alerts. I do not normally go anywhere near HYP-P except when there is an alert.

What I found was people deliberately trolling to revert to the old situation where the Company News board did not exist. Which a number of you then collectively decided to bite on. Which is not a HYP-P mandated item. So I deleted it/them and left the (one ?) item that was relevant to the company in question.

You are all old enough and wise enough not to go and do this. So please don't do this. It wastes everybody's time. Which is exactly why some of you - imho - did this.

If you want to discuss the news item from a HYP-P perspective then please crack on, and do so on the HYP-P board within the HYP-P mandate. Or discuss it any way you like on the company news board. Or any way you like on the HY-G board.

I am sure that this conversation itself should be somewhere else, but I am answering because really this is too petty for words.

Now I really need to get back to my day job.

And please remember. 1) I didn't write the HYP-P mandate, 2) I only ordinarily go to HYP-P if there is an alert to deal with.

regards, dspp

Arborbridge
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Re: it's raining deletions

#217500

Postby Arborbridge » April 26th, 2019, 2:09 pm

dspp wrote:I have deleted a load of stuff on one thread following alerts. Repeatedly.

You collectively are the people that raise the alerts. I do not normally go anywhere near HYP-P except when there is an alert.

What I found was people deliberately trolling to revert to the old situation where the Company News board did not exist. Which a number of you then collectively decided to bite on. Which is not a HYP-P mandated item. So I deleted it/them and left the (one ?) item that was relevant to the company in question.

You are all old enough and wise enough not to go and do this. So please don't do this. It wastes everybody's time. Which is exactly why some of you - imho - did this.

If you want to discuss the news item from a HYP-P perspective then please crack on, and do so on the HYP-P board within the HYP-P mandate. Or discuss it any way you like on the company news board. Or any way you like on the HY-G board.

I am sure that this conversation itself should be somewhere else, but I am answering because really this is too petty for words.

Now I really need to get back to my day job.

And please remember. 1) I didn't write the HYP-P mandate, 2) I only ordinarily go to HYP-P if there is an alert to deal with.

regards, dspp


That was partly my point - that people are raising alerts as a type of trolling. Possibly just because something one of us has said annoyed said troll. It therefore becomes your job not to fall over to satisfy the trolls but to ignore them. This site is in a sense catching the same disease as the universities which tolerate "no platforming" rants in order to close down discussion.

You don't raise the alerts, but you do overreact to them - and this is why moderation here has become uneccessarily vigorous compared with TMF.

Arb.

Dod101
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Re: it's raining deletions

#217529

Postby Dod101 » April 26th, 2019, 4:09 pm

I am with dspp on this particular one if as I assume Arb was complaining about an item being on the Company News Board in addition to the HYP Practical Board. It was rather off topic and could have developed into something worse. Mind you there must be a lot of people with nothing better to do to report that because it was pretty harmless.

On the issue though as I said before I was deleted, I agree with Arb's point that the Company Board is completely unnecessary and a waste of space, in addition to being time wasting and causing confusion.

Dod

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Re: it's raining deletions

#217531

Postby tjh290633 » April 26th, 2019, 4:17 pm

Dod101 wrote:I am with dspp on this particular one if as I assume Arb was complaining about an item being on the Company News Board in addition to the HYP Practical Board. It was rather off topic and could have developed into something worse. Mind you there must be a lot of people with nothing better to do to report that because it was pretty harmless.

On the issue though as I said before I was deleted, I agree with Arb's point that the Company Board is completely unnecessary and a waste of space, in addition to being time wasting and causing confusion.

Dod

If you are commenting about having to post twice, you don't need to. We have established that for HYP companies you can post about results, dividend announcements, profit warnings, etc. on the HYP board. If it is about the CEO having ingrowing toenails, then it goes on the Shares board under the company name. If it's not HYP related, it goes on the Shares board or any other relevant board.

TJH

PinkDalek
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Company Share news (FTSE 350)

#217533

Postby PinkDalek » April 26th, 2019, 4:18 pm

Dod101 wrote:... I agree with Arb's point that the Company Board is completely unnecessary and a waste of space, in addition to being time wasting and causing confusion.


I find the listing helpful viewtopic.php?f=94&t=16288 and some of the fresh news posts but not the HYP type discussions that sometimes ensue on there. Such as, I'm topping up next month, I'm not yet etc. etc. .

Keep those to the dedicated board.

IanTHughes
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Re: it's raining deletions

#217546

Postby IanTHughes » April 26th, 2019, 4:47 pm

My feeling is that, when an item of company news is relevant to the practicality of running an HYP Portfolio, whether or not it is also posted on the Companies board, it is surely welcome on the HYP Practical board.
Now, some items of news are obviously relevant to HYP Practical: Quarterly/Interim/Annual Results, Trading Updates, Dividend announcements etc., and these items will not need any further introduction or explanation.

But for other news items, all a poster has to do is compose a couple of sentences indicating why the news item is being raised, which should of course be relevant to HYP. If the item is truly relevant it should not be difficult and is surely not too much to ask.


Ian

Arborbridge
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Re: it's raining deletions

#217553

Postby Arborbridge » April 26th, 2019, 4:59 pm

Dod101 wrote:I am with dspp on this particular one if as I assume Arb was complaining about an item being on the Company News Board in addition to the HYP Practical Board. It was rather off topic and could have developed into something worse. Mind you there must be a lot of people with nothing better to do to report that because it was pretty harmless.

On the issue though as I said before I was deleted, I agree with Arb's point that the Company Board is completely unnecessary and a waste of space, in addition to being time wasting and causing confusion.

Dod


My feeling is that on TMF and earlier on LMF, the atmosphere was easy come easy go. The "rather off topic" passing and often trivial comment (which mine was) would have been ignored and certainly not reported.
We have infected by snowflakes or trolls who cannot stand anything slight tangential, it seems to me. Further, in my view, the mods are encouraging this by go along with deletions of the slightest fault, rather than telling the snowflakes to melt somewhere else. And as for developing "into something worse" - in that case "worse" being more OT, I suppose - well, wait until it happens, don't stamp over anything slightly OT as though we are scared of any discussion.

As I've written before - this is killing the board and sucking any fun out of it.

Arb.

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Re: it's raining deletions

#217555

Postby Arborbridge » April 26th, 2019, 5:03 pm

tjh290633 wrote:
Dod101 wrote:I am with dspp on this particular one if as I assume Arb was complaining about an item being on the Company News Board in addition to the HYP Practical Board. It was rather off topic and could have developed into something worse. Mind you there must be a lot of people with nothing better to do to report that because it was pretty harmless.

On the issue though as I said before I was deleted, I agree with Arb's point that the Company Board is completely unnecessary and a waste of space, in addition to being time wasting and causing confusion.

Dod

If you are commenting about having to post twice, you don't need to. We have established that for HYP companies you can post about results, dividend announcements, profit warnings, etc. on the HYP board. If it is about the CEO having ingrowing toenails, then it goes on the Shares board under the company name. If it's not HYP related, it goes on the Shares board or any other relevant board.

TJH


You still have to check both locations because one cannot know which board the discussion is on. Previously, one could tell if there was a discussion by observing the number of posts which had appeared on HYP-P - not any more.

Arb.

tjh290633
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Re: it's raining deletions

#217620

Postby tjh290633 » April 26th, 2019, 9:56 pm

Arborbridge wrote:You still have to check both locations because one cannot know which board the discussion is on. Previously, one could tell if there was a discussion by observing the number of posts which had appeared on HYP-P - not any more.

Arb.

It's quite easy to use "Unread posts" for that purpose. Or just use the red circles in the list of HYP threads or the list of posts on the Share News board.

TJH

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Re: it's raining deletions

#217625

Postby TUK020 » April 26th, 2019, 10:19 pm

Everyone, please remember:
a) un-moderated sites degenerate incredibly quickly. Clear rules and moderation are what keep them useful.
b) TLF moderation is a volunteer activity. Wasting the moderators' time and pissing them off is very self defeating
tuk020

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Re: it's raining deletions

#217636

Postby Alaric » April 26th, 2019, 11:32 pm

TUK020 wrote: Clear rules and moderation are what keep them useful.


If a site wants people to contribute, I would have thought a relaxed attitude to moderation essential. It's difficult to suggest a better way of annoying potential contributors than apparently arbitrary deletions of their posts.

If you use the drop downs "Quick Links - New Posts", you see what's new regardless of whether it's considered off topic or on topic for a particular board.

dspp
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Re: it's raining deletions

#217641

Postby dspp » April 27th, 2019, 12:37 am

If you want to see what a almost unmoderated site looks like go and see TMF USA. It is like the far right on racist steroids with two full barrels of Ayn Rand thrown in. And no humour, and trolls on every corner, and a flame war down every blind alley.

I/we fully get the over-Mod issue. As an example I let that thread run for a hour or so between my first bit of nip and tuck and my final hack and prune. I was desperately hoping you'd all move on to something 'material' in HYP-P rather than complaining about the rain. And then I had to go and deal with something more worrying that turned up of a defamation nature in another board. And then do the day job.

Please, I and other Mods do not necessarily want to moderate HYP-P the way we do. However we do it because that is the rules for that board. Until better rules are devised (and I think everyone is trying to figure that out) then I am afraid it often looks to me like a group of bald men squabbling over a comb. Please give us Mods a break, and don't provoke the squabbling because you all have so much more to give than that, and what you have to give is of great value to the 20:1 lurkers out there who read and make their own financial decisions with more understanding than if you didn't. And that gives so many people a much better chance than otherwise.

Yucky weather isn't it, not like last weekend. Still, bluebell walks in damp woodland can be gorgeous. Enjoy.

Regards, dspp

Itsallaguess
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Re: it's raining deletions

#217650

Postby Itsallaguess » April 27th, 2019, 6:47 am

Arborbridge wrote:
Further, in my view, the mods are encouraging this by go along with deletions of the slightest fault, rather than telling the snowflakes to melt somewhere else. And as for developing "into something worse" - in that case "worse" being more OT, I suppose - well, wait until it happens, don't stamp over anything slightly OT as though we are scared of any discussion.


Arb,

The new Company News Board is working well in my opinion, to try to help steer off-topic discussions (for HYP Practical) onto a more appropriate board. You might have a different opinion regarding the need for it, but it's been decided that this is the most appropriate solution to a very long term problem, so your indulgence and understanding of this particular aspect of board-organisation would be most welcome.

I personally think it's working quite well after a period of settling in, and people are posting the HYP-relevant news items onto HYP Practical, and the non-relevant news items onto the Company News Board, sometimes with a cross-post being left on HYP Practical to raise attention of that non-HYP-relevant thread on the News Board.

With that hurdle largely overcome, the issue now seems to have been a couple of threads where discussions have started to take place on the HYP Practical cross-post thread.....but is it not fairly clear that the most appropriate place for discussing such a news-thread, if it's actually been posted on the Company News Board (and most probably for very good reason....), would be the Company News Board?

Discussing a non-HYP relevant news item, in a way that's not relevant to HYP Practical, on the actual HYP Practical cross-post thread would of course fully defeat the objective that we're trying to achieve here, wouldn't you agree?

As dspp has pointed out - if there's HYP-relevant discussions to be had regarding a non-HYP relevant news item, then that's fair enough, but I'd suggest that the best thing to do would be to assume that the cross-post is there for a good reason, and to consider that good reason before posting on the actual cross-post thread, otherwise simply post over on the *actual* non-HYP-relevant news-thread over on the Company News Board.

I've got to be honest and say that many of the current issues can be minimised by a little self-policing, but some people don't seem to want to do that, and would prefer to continue to poke at the current guidance, and that's not helping to promote what would actually work really well in terms of HYP-relevant discussions, if only people were to buy-in to the intended improvements a little more...

Railing against mods, and railing against perceived 'snowflakes' isn't going to solve your issue with this problem Arb - the mods are here to help promote the current rules, and if any 'snowflakes' exist at all, they can only report with any relevance where those rules are not being followed.

As I suggested earlier, I think a little more self-policing to both follow and promote those rules, and the intentions behind them, would go an awful long way, I think, it trying to solve these current niggles....

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Arborbridge
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Re: it's raining deletions

#217652

Postby Arborbridge » April 27th, 2019, 7:01 am

dspp wrote:If you want to see what a almost unmoderated site looks like go and see TMF USA. It is like the far right on racist steroids with two full barrels of Ayn Rand thrown in. And no humour, and trolls on every corner, and a flame war down every blind alley.



Well, there's a Man of Straw argument if ever I saw one. No one is arguing for the zero moderation which might allow that to happen, and it certainly never happened on TMF UK. I might just as easily quote "The Archers" blogspot which had no active moderation, and didn't get crowded out with the mannerisms you mention.
Much depends on the posters themselves who create the ethos in the first place.

Arb.

Arborbridge
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Re: it's raining deletions

#217653

Postby Arborbridge » April 27th, 2019, 7:04 am

TUK020 wrote:Everyone, please remember:
a) un-moderated sites degenerate incredibly quickly. Clear rules and moderation are what keep them useful.
b) TLF moderation is a volunteer activity. Wasting the moderators' time and pissing them off is very self defeating
tuk020


And over moderation is also self defeating in the opposite manner - some posters already show signs of posting less or wanting to walk and have quoted over-moderation as being one factor.

BTW, no one has ever called for an unmoderated site, so your comment is tangential to the discussion - though the point is valid enough.

Arb.

Arborbridge
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Re: it's raining deletions

#217654

Postby Arborbridge » April 27th, 2019, 7:13 am

Incidentally, I've never found out what all those different things in the circles on the left hand side mean. I can't find any key to the symbols, and why do they sometimes have scrolly things inside?

I have to say, it's always been irrelevant to my needs, but a couple of helpful comments here (TJH and Alaric) make me realise I'm missing out on some functionality. My needs have been very simple up since up until recent alterations, all the information I needed was contained largely within one board - with occasional excursions to a couple of others.

Arb.

Itsallaguess
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Re: it's raining deletions

#217684

Postby Itsallaguess » April 27th, 2019, 10:25 am

Arborbridge wrote:
Incidentally, I've never found out what all those different things in the circles on the left hand side mean.

I can't find any key to the symbols, and why do they sometimes have scrolly things inside?


Where a topic icon is grey, similar to the icon below, then it means that you've read all the posts in that topic -

Image

Where a topic icon is red, similar to the icon below, it means that there are posts in that topic that you have not read -

Image

I think any icons that have scrolling lines inside it, no matter what colour the icons are, denotes a topic that has multiple pages of posts on it.

If there's a red star in the icon, then it means that the topic contains a post created you -

Image

There's a lot more little variations, so if you're interested in learning about them all, then this post over on the phpBB community board has a good list, with graphical icon examples -

https://www.phpbb.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=587802&sid=09c52575db460775a60dddf417c9190f&start=15#p15009641

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: it's raining deletions

#217730

Postby Lootman » April 27th, 2019, 2:23 pm

dspp wrote:I/we fully get the over-Mod issue . .

Please, I and other Mods do not necessarily want to moderate HYP-P the way we do. However we do it because that is the rules for that board. Until better rules are devised (and I think everyone is trying to figure that out) then I am afraid it often looks to me like a group of bald men squabbling over a comb.

A few months ago a moderator here (can't recall who) basically stated that the rules are/were not going to change. That for better or worse they are what they are and we should all just accept them. Now it sounds like they may be redone?

In any event I don't believe that there is somewhere a perfect set of rules that will resolve all these issues. Any change, either making the rules stricter or making them more lax, will have issues. Stricter rules will drive out one class of Lemon whilst more lax rules will drive out another. It really comes down to which class you prefer.

Both on TMF and TLF there have been different sets of HY rules employed and, as far as I can see, the problems go on and on, indicating (to me anyway) that the problems are inherent and structural, and so not fixable by merely tinkering with the rules.

The one thing I will say is that it seems to me that problems are compounded when we increase the number of boards on which HY-type posts can be made. It happened when the TMF HY board was split into two, and now it is happening with the Company News Board (not that I have any objection to it - but it does seem to increase the number of places where HY posts can be made and that always leads to fights).


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