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it's raining deletions

Pull up a chair, have a biscuit - discuss the site and general questions about the LemonFool
MDW1954
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Re: it's raining deletions

#217994

Postby MDW1954 » April 28th, 2019, 7:35 pm

Lootman wrote:
dspp wrote:
Walrus wrote:I would be very interested to see a a report on stats around members who report posts. I've pretty much given up on posting these days

- 1/3 of reports come from maybe a few dozen individuals who have particularly strongly held points of view on some subjects. These occur in a variety of different areas of TLF, and not everyone will always be aware of all of the areas. (This is because the centre of one person's universe may not be the same as the centre of another person's universe.) Probably about 2/3 - 3/4 of these get closed without action by Mods. Most Mods here are fairly clued up about the trajectory of various matters and individuals, collectively going back about 20-years, and even to TMF.com in the USA back in the beginning before TMF UK (or TMF AU) existed.


I am depressed, but not altogether surprised, that up to one third of post reports derive from some kind of personal agenda or vendetta. I had remarked on the existence of mischievous reporting before but did not realise it happens on such a scale.



You are misreading what was written. That is *NOT* what was said.

MDW1954

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Re: it's raining deletions

#218007

Postby BrummieDave » April 28th, 2019, 8:52 pm

What's happened to my post - has it been deleted...?

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Re: it's raining deletions

#218024

Postby Lootman » April 28th, 2019, 9:45 pm

MDW1954 wrote:
Lootman wrote:
dspp wrote: - 1/3 of reports come from maybe a few dozen individuals who have particularly strongly held points of view on some subjects. These occur in a variety of different areas of TLF, and not everyone will always be aware of all of the areas. (This is because the centre of one person's universe may not be the same as the centre of another person's universe.) Probably about 2/3 - 3/4 of these get closed without action by Mods. Most Mods here are fairly clued up about the trajectory of various matters and individuals, collectively going back about 20-years, and even to TMF.com in the USA back in the beginning before TMF UK (or TMF AU) existed.

I am depressed, but not altogether surprised, that up to one third of post reports derive from some kind of personal agenda or vendetta. I had remarked on the existence of mischievous reporting before but did not realise it happens on such a scale.

You are misreading what was written. That is *NOT* what was said.

Am I? Is it? Here is how my sixth form maths computes what dspp said. Between 2/3 and 3/4 of one third of posts are deemed unworthy of moderator action. So between 2/9 and 1/4 of all post reports are deemed invalid.

But it is worse than that because 1/3 of all posts are self-reports and so unlikely to be mischievous or abusive. So taking those out we have that between 2/3 and 3/4 of 1/2 of all non-self-reporting post reports are suspect. Or between 1/3 and 3/8 of all non-self-reporting post reports.

Call that 35%. Please correct my working if my sums are wrong.

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Re: it's raining deletions

#218046

Postby Walrus » April 29th, 2019, 4:44 am

BrummieDave wrote:What's happened to my post - has it been deleted...?


Ironically it appears to have been deleted along with my response.

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Re: it's raining deletions

#218056

Postby melonfool » April 29th, 2019, 8:18 am

Arborbridge wrote:Incidentally, I've never found out what all those different things in the circles on the left hand side mean. I can't find any key to the symbols, and why do they sometimes have scrolly things inside?

I have to say, it's always been irrelevant to my needs, but a couple of helpful comments here (TJH and Alaric) make me realise I'm missing out on some functionality. My needs have been very simple up since up until recent alterations, all the information I needed was contained largely within one board - with occasional excursions to a couple of others.

Arb.


And there we have the crux of the issue - some people don't understand how the software works and want to use it in the same way as they did TMF.

Mel

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Re: it's raining deletions

#218057

Postby Dod101 » April 29th, 2019, 8:35 am

tjh290633 wrote:Perhaps the solution is to make arb, dod et al moderators? They will end up moderating each other to oblivion. Certain posters do a lot of reporting of posts which they disagree should be there.


Please do not include me in this thread. I think it is all a bit pointless and you will note that I have played only a very small part in it. My only point, and it was made some time ago is that I do not see the point in a HYP- Practical Board and the Company Boards.

Dod

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Re: it's raining deletions

#218080

Postby Arborbridge » April 29th, 2019, 9:51 am

tjh290633 wrote:Perhaps the solution is to make arb, dod et al moderators? They will end up moderating each other to oblivion. Certain posters do a lot of reporting of posts which they disagree should be there.

If the moderator agrees with the report, the post is deleted. If not, a PM may go to the objector and the report is closed. Some other action like deleting objectionable phrases or words can be an alternative. If it looks frivolous, the report may just be closed.

I think that the golden rule should be to think before you post or report a post.

TJH


You have that wrong in my case... I would be inclined to moderate less not moderate into oblivion. Neither have I ever reported a post for being OT or offensive - I would be more inclined to say so directly to the poster. Indeed, I doubt I have ever reported a post, with the exception of one that seemed some sort of scam: so please do not characterise me- even tangentially - as someone who indulges in the style of reporting you describe.

Arb.

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Re: it's raining deletions

#218082

Postby Walrus » April 29th, 2019, 9:55 am

Dod101 wrote:
tjh290633 wrote:Perhaps the solution is to make arb, dod et al moderators? They will end up moderating each other to oblivion. Certain posters do a lot of reporting of posts which they disagree should be there.


Please do not include me in this thread. I think it is all a bit pointless and you will note that I have played only a very small part in it. My only point, and it was made some time ago is that I do not see the point in a HYP- Practical Board and the Company Boards.

Dod


I actually think a board moderated by the three mentioned would be a pretty fair and sensible board, but what do I know.

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Re: it's raining deletions

#218085

Postby Walrus » April 29th, 2019, 10:00 am

Arborbridge wrote:
tjh290633 wrote:Perhaps the solution is to make arb, dod et al moderators? They will end up moderating each other to oblivion. Certain posters do a lot of reporting of posts which they disagree should be there.

If the moderator agrees with the report, the post is deleted. If not, a PM may go to the objector and the report is closed. Some other action like deleting objectionable phrases or words can be an alternative. If it looks frivolous, the report may just be closed.

I think that the golden rule should be to think before you post or report a post.

TJH


You have that wrong in my case... I would be inclined to moderate less not moderate into oblivion. Neither have I ever reported a post for being OT or offensive - I would be more inclined to say so directly to the poster. Indeed, I doubt I have ever reported a post, with the exception of one that seemed some sort of scam: so please do not characterise me- even tangentially - as someone who indulges in the style of reporting you describe.

Arb.


Seemed an odd choice of posters, who I would have thought are all on the light touch side of moderation, and three of the most thanked posters on these boards. Most odd indeed.

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Re: it's raining deletions

#218091

Postby Arborbridge » April 29th, 2019, 10:09 am

MDW1954 wrote:
Your acknowledgement that you are willfully and deliberately wasting volunteers moderators' time by posting the wrong stuff in the wrong place simply means that more of your posts will be deleted.


MDW1954


That isn't what I said, or what I meant. There's nothing "wilful" neither am I wasting moderators time - you are perfectly capable of doing that without my help!
If there's a problem on a board, in my view I am better raising with that particular community since it will then be read by the people most conerned. It was LMF who set up this draconian system to which we often fall prey - and confusion as to the nicety of what should be posted where, so you can hardly blame posters if we get confused. As one who has only heard of the either the Biscuit Bar or what was it Room 101? - I do find it difficult to decided what should go where, and why. Before now, I've never even looked at these boards - no doubt I will learn more as I go along, but for the moment I just write as I see fit, where I believe it seems most appropriate.

The fact remains, that there are an enormous number of deletions on LMF compared with TMF (at least, if my experience is typical). This could be us telling us various things: a) the moderators are quicker to delete, b) the rules are more draconian b) the posters do not entirely understand the system. Whichever it is, this is a message which might point to some improvements being necessary.
Part of that could be communication - for example, posters complain that posts have "disappeared" without explanation. At a very basic level,to delete without explanation is poor etiquette, but more relevently, if one does not receive an email to say what the offence was, how is one to learn? The mods make a rod for their own backs if they do not PM people with an explanation - I'm willing to learn, but if no one can be bothered to point out where we've crossed the line, it makes more work for everyone.

Arb.


Arb.

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Re: it's raining deletions

#218096

Postby Arborbridge » April 29th, 2019, 10:18 am

melonfool wrote:And there we have the crux of the issue - some people don't understand how the software works and want to use it in the same way as they did TMF.

Mel


Yes, it's a good point. It was quite understandable that those coming from TMF would expect this board to be at least similar - though we soon realised there were big differences in the architecture. Like all software, one learns more as one uses it, and in my case (like most users, I'd guess) I muddle along in favourite bits of the labrynth, but don't learn anything extra until the need arises. That's the way it is with most software users.

The question I posed about the little icons on the left is a typical point. I've never understood them, but then I've never had a desperate need to know, either. One of those mysteries peripheral to one's requirements until brought into focus by some event.

As with all internet/computer experience, it isn't until you look back that you realise how far you've come and how much has been learnt on the way - from either poking around, or from willing helpers who give one a "leg up" - many of whom are on these boards, and for whom I am always grateful.

Arb.

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Re: it's raining deletions

#218100

Postby Arborbridge » April 29th, 2019, 10:22 am

PinkDalek wrote:https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=13514


I've just noticed your link, thank you. From what I see in that link, there is no room for posters to have a communal discussion about moderation or compare views about it.

In other words, it's a gagging order. Make of that what you will, but "draconian" springs to mind. A discussion site without the possibility of discussion seems an odd concept.


Arb.

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Re: it's raining deletions

#218101

Postby Itsallaguess » April 29th, 2019, 10:28 am

Arborbridge wrote:


I've just noticed your link, thank you. From what I see in that link, there is no room for posters to have a communal discussion about moderation or compare views about it.

In other words, it's a gagging order. Make of that what you will, but "draconian" springs to mind. A discussion site without the possibility of discussion seems an odd concept.


Arb,

We're currently on Page 3 of a thread discussing moderation....

You're claiming 'draconian gagging orders' in a thread where quite a lot of flexibility has clearly been granted to have these discussions, where we've been able to both air and appreciate both sides of the issue here.

Can you not acknowledge that the willingness to do so is far away from the picture that you seem to want to paint here?

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: it's raining deletions

#218105

Postby melonfool » April 29th, 2019, 10:40 am

Arborbridge wrote:
MDW1954 wrote:
Your acknowledgement that you are willfully and deliberately wasting volunteers moderators' time by posting the wrong stuff in the wrong place simply means that more of your posts will be deleted.


MDW1954


That isn't what I said, or what I meant. There's nothing "wilful" neither am I wasting moderators time - you are perfectly capable of doing that without my help!
If there's a problem on a board, in my view I am better raising with that particular community since it will then be read by the people most conerned. It was LMF who set up this draconian system to which we often fall prey - and confusion as to the nicety of what should be posted where, so you can hardly blame posters if we get confused. As one who has only heard of the either the Biscuit Bar or what was it Room 101? - I do find it difficult to decided what should go where, and why. Before now, I've never even looked at these boards - no doubt I will learn more as I go along, but for the moment I just write as I see fit, where I believe it seems most appropriate.

The fact remains, that there are an enormous number of deletions on LMF compared with TMF (at least, if my experience is typical). This could be us telling us various things: a) the moderators are quicker to delete, b) the rules are more draconian b) the posters do not entirely understand the system. Whichever it is, this is a message which might point to some improvements being necessary.
Part of that could be communication - for example, posters complain that posts have "disappeared" without explanation. At a very basic level,to delete without explanation is poor etiquette, but more relevently, if one does not receive an email to say what the offence was, how is one to learn? The mods make a rod for their own backs if they do not PM people with an explanation - I'm willing to learn, but if no one can be bothered to point out where we've crossed the line, it makes more work for everyone.

Arb.


Arb.


Do you not think this is quite rude?


"I am better raising with that particular community...." - or, surely you are 'better' following the requirements of the site you are posting on?

"Draconian system"? Rude and hyperbolic.

"We often fall prey" - same. And really, many people manage to avoid 'falling prey' to it.

"Confusion as to the nicety" - no, a sensible structure so people can find things, follow the things they want to and not be distracted by other things. The vast majority of posters seem to manage it.

"The fact remains" - there is no 'fact' in your post, your posts are mainly assumption and opinion.

"There are an enormous amount of deletions" - you cannot possibly know this to be true. And not every deletion is equal either. If a topic goes off topic by one post, as mods have said, they will probably leave it, but then loads more carry on and the whole thread gets diverted, then people chip in that the posts are off topic and you end up with long threads with no substance, then yes, probably quite a few from one thread get deleted, but actually whole threads run with zero deletions.

"Compared with TMF" - please do share your workings.....

It has been explained time and time again by mods how much work it is to PM posters. And all mods have said they do their best to do this where they can. How can you ask of them to do MORE THAN their best? How? What do you expect of them? Where there are a lot of deletions for threads that have gone feral, it's too much to ask a mod to remember the name of every contributor (especially when it is something like acpy873xw0 which presumably mean something to the user but are difficult to remember) and PM them all, not everyone is sitting at a desk with a notepad to hand, I used to have to do this on my phone on the train and it just was not possible to PM people every time.

Calling it 'poor etiquette' is to totally misunderstand the nature of a discussion board, its users and moderation.

'The mods make a rod for their own backs' , 'if no one can be bothered' - I just find these phrases so rude to people who are there to keep the board nice and useful to people.

Mel

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Re: it's raining deletions

#218117

Postby BrummieDave » April 29th, 2019, 11:28 am

Walrus wrote:
BrummieDave wrote:What's happened to my post - has it been deleted...?


Ironically it appears to have been deleted along with my response.


Ironic doesn't even come close.

It's sad that my post which started off by complimenting the mods, and I've thanked them previously and do so again here, THANK YOU, then went on to inject a little humour into an otherwise rather argumentative thread, and ended with some very gentle and obviously good humoured mickey taking, was deleted, and also your response that simply said it made you laugh.

A sad day indeed.

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Re: it's raining deletions

#218179

Postby Arborbridge » April 29th, 2019, 3:46 pm

melonfool wrote:
Arborbridge wrote:
MDW1954 wrote:
Your acknowledgement that you are willfully and deliberately wasting volunteers moderators' time by posting the wrong stuff in the wrong place simply means that more of your posts will be deleted.


MDW1954


That isn't what I said, or what I meant. There's nothing "wilful" neither am I wasting moderators time - you are perfectly capable of doing that without my help!
If there's a problem on a board, in my view I am better raising with that particular community since it will then be read by the people most conerned. It was LMF who set up this draconian system to which we often fall prey - and confusion as to the nicety of what should be posted where, so you can hardly blame posters if we get confused. As one who has only heard of the either the Biscuit Bar or what was it Room 101? - I do find it difficult to decided what should go where, and why. Before now, I've never even looked at these boards - no doubt I will learn more as I go along, but for the moment I just write as I see fit, where I believe it seems most appropriate.

The fact remains, that there are an enormous number of deletions on LMF compared with TMF (at least, if my experience is typical). This could be us telling us various things: a) the moderators are quicker to delete, b) the rules are more draconian b) the posters do not entirely understand the system. Whichever it is, this is a message which might point to some improvements being necessary.
Part of that could be communication - for example, posters complain that posts have "disappeared" without explanation. At a very basic level,to delete without explanation is poor etiquette, but more relevently, if one does not receive an email to say what the offence was, how is one to learn? The mods make a rod for their own backs if they do not PM people with an explanation - I'm willing to learn, but if no one can be bothered to point out where we've crossed the line, it makes more work for everyone.

Arb.


Arb.


Do you not think this is quite rude?


"I am better raising with that particular community...." - or, surely you are 'better' following the requirements of the site you are posting on?

"Draconian system"? Rude and hyperbolic.

"We often fall prey" - same. And really, many people manage to avoid 'falling prey' to it.

"Confusion as to the nicety" - no, a sensible structure so people can find things, follow the things they want to and not be distracted by other things. The vast majority of posters seem to manage it.

"The fact remains" - there is no 'fact' in your post, your posts are mainly assumption and opinion.

"There are an enormous amount of deletions" - you cannot possibly know this to be true. And not every deletion is equal either. If a topic goes off topic by one post, as mods have said, they will probably leave it, but then loads more carry on and the whole thread gets diverted, then people chip in that the posts are off topic and you end up with long threads with no substance, then yes, probably quite a few from one thread get deleted, but actually whole threads run with zero deletions.

"Compared with TMF" - please do share your workings.....

It has been explained time and time again by mods how much work it is to PM posters. And all mods have said they do their best to do this where they can. How can you ask of them to do MORE THAN their best? How? What do you expect of them? Where there are a lot of deletions for threads that have gone feral, it's too much to ask a mod to remember the name of every contributor (especially when it is something like acpy873xw0 which presumably mean something to the user but are difficult to remember) and PM them all, not everyone is sitting at a desk with a notepad to hand, I used to have to do this on my phone on the train and it just was not possible to PM people every time.

Calling it 'poor etiquette' is to totally misunderstand the nature of a discussion board, its users and moderation.

'The mods make a rod for their own backs' , 'if no one can be bothered' - I just find these phrases so rude to people who are there to keep the board nice and useful to people.

Mel



If you cannot accept at least some of the message, then I may as well give up - like others before me. But then, that's exactly what you want, isn't it?!
You need to see past your own defensive reactions and realise that there are problems with the moderation and that it is killing the board. That is what several posters have been trying o tell you, albeit in sometimes a hamfisted or even unfair way. I've spent the past ten years or so contributing to the HYP board, and I wouldn't have started grumbling if there weren't some good reasons behind it. Until about half a year ago, we have been pretty much content - so ask yourself: what are rule makers and mods we doing wrong?


Arb.

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Re: it's raining deletions

#218180

Postby melonfool » April 29th, 2019, 4:02 pm

Arb

I am not commenting on the message as much as the delivery.

I am not 'defensive', why would I be? I have different view to you, if you feel the need to label that, fine, that's your call.

The moaning about HYP is just so tedious I'm not sure why TLf even has the board, especially as so many of you keep telling everyone that it's not the board you want (but there are as many views of this as there are users) and that you're all going to flounce any minute if you don't get your own way.

My view is that HYP should just be a thread in 'other investing'.

Mel

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Re: it's raining deletions

#218198

Postby XFool » April 29th, 2019, 4:57 pm

Arborbridge wrote:Part of that could be communication - for example, posters complain that posts have "disappeared" without explanation.

Just a quick post to point out, as has been explained before, this situation can arise accidentally due to the working of the board software.

It is always possible to have clicked PREVIEW rather than the intended SUBMIT. More to the point, if another post has been made before yours is submitted then, even if you do click on SUBMIT, the post will not be posted, rather you will be dropped back into editing mode. There is supposed to be some message in this case, which I always seem to miss. If you are certain you pressed SUBMIT you may just have rapidly moved on and not noticed.

Later, it may seem to you that your post has been 'deleted'. I am pretty sure this has happened to me. I don't know how many times.

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Re: it's raining deletions

#218209

Postby Lootman » April 29th, 2019, 5:18 pm

XFool wrote:
Arborbridge wrote:Part of that could be communication - for example, posters complain that posts have "disappeared" without explanation.

Just a quick post to point out, as has been explained before, this situation can arise accidentally due to the working of the board software.

It is always possible to have clicked PREVIEW rather than the intended SUBMIT. More to the point, if another post has been made before yours is submitted then, even if you do click on SUBMIT, the post will not be posted, rather you will be dropped back into editing mode. There is supposed to be some message in this case, which I always seem to miss. If you are certain you pressed SUBMIT you may just have rapidly moved on and not noticed.

Later, it may seem to you that your post has been 'deleted'. I am pretty sure this has happened to me. I don't know how many times.

One thing you can do when that "later" happens is sucessively hit the back button and eventually you will arrive back at the point where you hit submit. You will then see the message about the intervening post and, assuming you still want to submit the post, can simply hit that button again (looking carefully for yet more intervening posts of course).

I can't guarantee that works on phones and the like but it certainly does on the three devices that I regularly use.

All that said I am fairly sure that Arb is talking about genuine Mod deletions.

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Re: it's raining deletions

#218234

Postby Arborbridge » April 29th, 2019, 6:16 pm

Lootman wrote:
XFool wrote:
Arborbridge wrote:Part of that could be communication - for example, posters complain that posts have "disappeared" without explanation.

Just a quick post to point out, as has been explained before, this situation can arise accidentally due to the working of the board software.

It is always possible to have clicked PREVIEW rather than the intended SUBMIT. More to the point, if another post has been made before yours is submitted then, even if you do click on SUBMIT, the post will not be posted, rather you will be dropped back into editing mode. There is supposed to be some message in this case, which I always seem to miss. If you are certain you pressed SUBMIT you may just have rapidly moved on and not noticed.

Later, it may seem to you that your post has been 'deleted'. I am pretty sure this has happened to me. I don't know how many times.

One thing you can do when that "later" happens is sucessively hit the back button and eventually you will arrive back at the point where you hit submit. You will then see the message about the intervening post and, assuming you still want to submit the post, can simply hit that button again (looking carefully for yet more intervening posts of course).

I can't guarantee that works on phones and the like but it certainly does on the three devices that I regularly use.

All that said I am fairly sure that Arb is talking about genuine Mod deletions.


Yes, and people who reported in this thread that there post "disappeared" - I'm fairly certain that Walrus, for example, would know about the wrinkles mentioned here and would not have been caught out that way.
However, it does take a while to discover these software foibles, so it is as well to mention them again.

Arb.


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