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Why does HYP1's discussion seem to stir a rather emotional response?

Formerly "Lemon Fool - Improve the Recipe" repurposed as Room 102 (see above).
scotia
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Re: Why does HYP1's discussion seem to stir a rather emotional response?

#265508

Postby scotia » November 19th, 2019, 4:58 pm

Could I suggest that this is re-homed to the Meaning of Life - as it seems to show all the hallmarks of a religious argument.

Itsallaguess
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Re: Why does HYP1's discussion seem to stir a rather emotional response?

#265510

Postby Itsallaguess » November 19th, 2019, 5:02 pm

Alaric wrote:
Itsallaguess wrote:
Can you please tell me where that 'advocacy' [to buy cum-div in preference to ex-div] exists?


It was by one of the principal advocates.


But again though Alaric, you're simply overplaying your cards.

Just because an investor chooses to run an investment strategy a particular way doesn't necessarily mean that 'the strategy' itself advocates doing something in particular, and using such really quite minor examples like this as a way to generally attack a strategy is the sort of thing that will of course lead to challenges on the attempts to do so.

If challenging such attempts are then portrayed as 'vociferous attacks' then I think you yourself need to take some responsibility in that process by engaging in what seems like an oft-repeated habit of simply overplaying the points that you're wanting to make.

Simply put, you're 'vociferously attacking' the strategy yourself, as are others sometimes too, and I think it's really quite unfair to think you can then simply label any defence of that strategy in the way that you have, if you're not actually willing to acknowledge the regular part you are playing in that two-way process yourself...

It really does seem to me that if there's any 'religious fervour' being thrown around, that it's not only coming from one side here....

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: Why does HYP1's discussion seem to stir a rather emotional response?

#265512

Postby Alaric » November 19th, 2019, 5:02 pm

IanTHughes wrote: I do not have any master so you will have to explain who exactly you are referring to and whose master they are, assuming not yours of course, which was my original assumption.


In an earlier post you use the wayback machine to quote from original pyad articles as if they were the words of the master authority.

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Re: Why does HYP1's discussion seem to stir a rather emotional response?

#265515

Postby IanTHughes » November 19th, 2019, 5:10 pm

Alaric wrote:
IanTHughes wrote: I do not have any master so you will have to explain who exactly you are referring to and whose master they are, assuming not yours of course, which was my original assumption.

In an earlier post you use the wayback machine to quote from original pyad articles as if they were the words of the master authority.

All I was doing was pointing out the truth about the HYP Strategy to counter the lies spread by others.

Can I assume that by quoting me, as you frequently do, you are looking up to me with reverence as your master? Gosh, I have never had a pupil before, how am I doing my little one?


Ian

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Re: Why does HYP1's discussion seem to stir a rather emotional response?

#265518

Postby SalvorHardin » November 19th, 2019, 5:14 pm

Dod101 wrote:A HYPish type approach is all very well but allowing for no deviation is a recipe for at the very least an unbalanced and somewhat dangerous portfolio as we can see from various reports emanating from pyad.

We saw something similar in the pre-HYP days back on TMF on the Value Shares board (very late 1990s and early 2000s), where failing to strictly adhere to the four PYAD rules meant that you were ostracised by the true believers. So much so that the moderators would regularly remove posts for failing to adhere to the four rules, even though there was nothing in the Value shares board rules about it.

The most spectacular bunfights concerned the "A" bit, where you were only meant to buy shares whose asset value in the accounts was more than the share price. Some of us committed heresy by pointing out that asset values in the accounts often bore no relation to the market value of these assets. The biggie was small oil companies, whose asset value for discoveries was what had been spent to discover them - the size of the discovery was irrelevant. When compared with what was being paid for companies in takeovers the value in the accounts was often a tiny fraction of what they would fetch if the company was sold. And of course there was the economic situation, which purists were supposed to ignore completely, with rising demand for oil driving up prices (supply could not be increased at a sufficient rate in the early 2000s due to the previous oil bust).

Anyway some of us preferred being heretics and wandered off to the oil and gas board, whilst the value share purists congratulated themselves (the term "bongo tinpot" was regularly used by TMFers in articles to describe small oil explorers). Within a few years some of these oil shares had turned into ten baggers or more (it was like shooting fish in a barrel) and some of us had made life changing amounts. Soco International was the best known success with some people making almost one hundred times their original investment (admittedly Soco also benefited from a huge discovery off the coast of South Vietnam after many of us had bought in).

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Re: Why does HYP1's discussion seem to stir a rather emotional response?

#265522

Postby PinkDalek » November 19th, 2019, 5:28 pm

SalvorHardin wrote:[Anyway some of us preferred being heretics and wandered off to the oil and gas board, ...


Yes but aren't you coming up with a solution? You went off to another board to discuss what you wanted to discuss.

Those who aren't proponents of the High Yield Portfolios (HYP) - Practical (Practical discussions about equity High-Yield Portfolios (HYP) for income) strategy seem unable to resist posting there (and here). This isn't the first topic on the subject in the Biscuit Bar, nor shall it be the last.


Some of the replies on this thread remind my of Groundhog Day.


Some of the replies on this thread remind my of Groundhog Day.

There is nothing new to see here.

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Re: Why does HYP1's discussion seem to stir a rather emotional response?

#265524

Postby Alaric » November 19th, 2019, 5:38 pm

IanTHughes wrote:All I was doing was pointing out the truth about the HYP Strategy to counter the lies spread by others.


The heretics are spreading false statements about the true faith. That must be countered by quoting from the scriptures. At least that's how it comes across.

If you Google for "the HYP Strategy", you get TMF America references which refer back to the TMF UK originals and ii discussion groups which reference back to here. Google also has the stockopedia articles. So "the HYP Strategy" lacks definition other than by reference to what Bland and others says it is.

TMF America
https://www.fool.com/investing/dividend ... folio.aspx
ii discussion
https://www.ii.co.uk/discussion/t/anyon ... yp/1147981

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Re: Why does HYP1's discussion seem to stir a rather emotional response?

#265526

Postby Lootman » November 19th, 2019, 5:42 pm

PinkDalek wrote:
SalvorHardin wrote:[Anyway some of us preferred being heretics and wandered off to the oil and gas board, ...

Yes but aren't you coming up with a solution? You went off to another board to discuss what you wanted to discuss.

Those who aren't proponents of the High Yield Portfolios (HYP) - Practical (Practical discussions about equity High-Yield Portfolios (HYP) for income) strategy seem unable to resist posting there (and here). This isn't the first topic on the subject in the Biscuit Bar, nor shall it be the last.

The topic arose because a new Lemon (has been here about 5 weeks) asked about the emotions surrounding some HYP discussions. It is unlikely that someone that new would be aware of the history in the same way as you are. Gengulphus could not answer him and so I attempted to. The sub-topic then got moved here.

I get the "if you don't like it here, the door is over there" argument. But I think people are still perplexed as to why only this investment topic attracts that amount of rancour. (That said, I saw some fights about Technical Analysis back on TMF).

I was less aware about similar fights on the TMF Value Board until Salvor mentioned it. But thinking about it more I did get some pushback once when I went there with questions.

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Re: Why does HYP1's discussion seem to stir a rather emotional response?

#265530

Postby IanTHughes » November 19th, 2019, 5:47 pm

Alaric wrote:
IanTHughes wrote:All I was doing was pointing out the truth about the HYP Strategy to counter the lies spread by others.

The heretics are spreading false statements about the true faith. That must be countered by quoting from the scriptures. At least that's how it comes across.

Do not be down-hearted, oh little one! I as your Master advise you to look strong! When you look and feel strong, you are strong!

Is that what you want from your master? I have to ask because I am rather new to this. After all, you are my only pupil!

Alaric wrote:If you Google for "the HYP Strategy", you get TMF America references which refer back to the TMF UK originals and ii discussion groups which reference back to here. Google also has the stockopedia articles. So "the HYP Strategy" lacks definition other than by reference to what Bland and others says it is.

TMF America
https://www.fool.com/investing/dividend ... folio.aspx
ii discussion
https://www.ii.co.uk/discussion/t/anyon ... yp/1147981

Oh little one, what did you expect? The HYP strategy, including the acronym I believe, was originally postulated and developed by Stephen Bland so exactly whose work did you expect them to reference, Donald Duck's? I am afraid you will just have to accept that, oh little one!


Ian

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Re: Why does HYP1's discussion seem to stir a rather emotional response?

#265536

Postby Alaric » November 19th, 2019, 6:34 pm

Lootman wrote: But I think people are still perplexed as to why only this investment topic attracts that amount of rancour.


I don' think the sarcastic personal attacks made by some of the posters helps, as illustrated in this thread. Grandiose talk of "the HYP Strategy" doesn't help much either.

Investing in equities to generate income is a well established strategy followed by many funds. It shouldn't need a set of beliefs. Nor should the observation that stocks can get to have high yields because the price has dropped be a controversial statement.

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Re: Why does HYP1's discussion seem to stir a rather emotional response?

#265540

Postby PinkDalek » November 19th, 2019, 6:45 pm

Lootman wrote:Gengulphus could not answer him and so I attempted to. The sub-topic then got moved here. ...


Yes I know how we got here but what Gengulphus said was:

'Sorry, but I don't think I can answer that question without going seriously off this board's topic of running HYPs in practice - and as regards answering it on other boards, I would certainly find it at least hard work and possibly impossible to answer it anywhere without breaking TLF's rule "Stick to the facts and argue the points discussed, rather than criticise the poster."'


From https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=265231#p265231

Your point about the "Lemon" being a fairly recent registration is noted. Only that poster can answer if he or she wasn't previously aware of HYP-P or had been reading The Lemon Fool before registration. Come what may, I've yet to spot that poster on this partially moved Topic, so we don't even know if these three pages so far have educated him or her.

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Re: Why does HYP1's discussion seem to stir a rather emotional response?

#265544

Postby IanTHughes » November 19th, 2019, 6:48 pm

Alaric wrote:
Lootman wrote: But I think people are still perplexed as to why only this investment topic attracts that amount of rancour.

I don' think the sarcastic personal attacks made by some of the posters helps, as illustrated in this thread.

Is that the best you an do as an apology?

Alaric wrote:Grandiose talk of "the HYP Strategy" doesn't help much either."

Grandiose? It is called High Yield Portfolio - or HYP for short - and it is an investment "Strategy"! How else should one refer to it?

Alaric wrote:Investing in equities to generate income is a well established strategy followed by many funds. It shouldn't need a set of beliefs.

There are no beliefs involved, except maybe your own.

Alaric wrote:Nor should the observation that stocks can get to have high yields because the price has dropped be a controversial statement.

Don't worry, such an observation is not considered controversial at all. Unless you believe it is of course. Do you?


Ian

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Re: Why does HYP1's discussion seem to stir a rather emotional response?

#265545

Postby Lootman » November 19th, 2019, 6:52 pm

PinkDalek wrote:
Lootman wrote:Gengulphus could not answer him and so I attempted to. The sub-topic then got moved here. ...

Yes I know how we got here but what Gengulphus said was:

'Sorry, but I don't think I can answer that question without going seriously off this board's topic of running HYPs in practice - and as regards answering it on other boards, I would certainly find it at least hard work and possibly impossible to answer it anywhere without breaking TLF's rule "Stick to the facts and argue the points discussed, rather than criticise the poster."'

In my view G should not second guess moderation. If the question is not ruled off topic then it is OK to answer it. On TMF he might have had a point but on TLF, worst case, the issue gets relocated as here. No problem.

PinkDalek wrote:Your point about the "Lemon" being a fairly recent registration is noted. Only that poster can answer if he or she wasn't previously aware of HYP-P or had been reading The Lemon Fool before registration. Come what may, I've yet to spot that poster on this partially moved Topic, so we don't even know if these three pages so far have educated him or her.

I suspect that some Lemons, particularly new ones, are not so conversant about how topics can leap about here, and may well not have seen this new topic, not because he is not interested but because he didn't expect it to pop up elsewhere. I can DM him if you are worried.

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Re: Why does HYP1's discussion seem to stir a rather emotional response?

#265547

Postby Alaric » November 19th, 2019, 6:56 pm

IanTHughes wrote:Don't worry, such an observation is not considered controversial at all.


I seem to recall an attack by you when I said that "the HYP Strategy" involved selecting shares where the price had fallen. You accused me of misrepresenting "the HYP Strategy". Indeed you have frequently accused me of not understanding it. So yes, in my view you regard it as a set of beliefs to be defended. The religious analogy is obvious.

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Re: Why does HYP1's discussion seem to stir a rather emotional response?

#265553

Postby IanTHughes » November 19th, 2019, 7:14 pm

Alaric wrote:
IanTHughes wrote:Don't worry, such an observation is not considered controversial at all.

I seem to recall an attack by you when I said that "the HYP Strategy" involved selecting shares where the price had fallen.

I have only ever said that my following the HYP Strategy involves my selecting shares that are the highest yield available where I consider the dividend to be sustainable and where my Portfolio Concentration limits (Diversification) are not broken. It is hardly surprising if the share price has suffered a recent fall, it is High Yield after all. You are once again making things up.

Alaric wrote: You accused me of misrepresenting "the HYP Strategy".

Only when you have misrepresented the HYP Strategy, which happens rather frequently.

Alaric wrote:Indeed you have frequently accused me of not understanding it.

Only when your posts indicate such a lack of understanding, which they often do, have I attempted to correct your misunderstandings. A rather fruitless task as it has turned out.

Alaric wrote: So yes, in my view you regard it as a set of beliefs to be defended. The religious analogy is obvious.

You are perfectly entitled to your opinion, even though the truth is I neither have any such "beliefs" and nor do I attempt to defend anyone else's. Of course in my view it is you who is on a Religious Crusade, attempting to discredit the HYP Strategy simply because it is there! The fact that on occasions you do not appear to even understand it is rather telling, but of course rather par for the course with Religious Crusades.


Ian
Last edited by IanTHughes on November 19th, 2019, 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why does HYP1's discussion seem to stir a rather emotional response?

#265554

Postby Itsallaguess » November 19th, 2019, 7:16 pm

With regards to the specific thread title, I think it might just save an awful lot of time if we all just agree that there are perhaps two 'emotional responses' in play here -

One, on the side of a HYP owner who clearly knows that the income-strategy that he's been following for years has delivered on the expectations of it, and the other one from the side of someone who can't stop telling him that it shouldn't have done......

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: Why does HYP1's discussion seem to stir a rather emotional response?

#265555

Postby Dod101 » November 19th, 2019, 7:26 pm

I am replying to ITH's post no 265505 of 4.53 pm today. It has become much too convoluted for me to extract bits from it but in any case all I wanted to say is that I would have thought that it was pretty obvious that when I referred to 'the Master' I was referring to the author of the HYP creed, namely none other than pyad himself.

I am not in the least upset about anything but I simply hope that ITH's comments, which come to the fore every time anyone veers slightly off the HYP path, do not unduly influence too many others. Whilst it is good to have almost any investment strategy, sticking strictly to the HYP creed has often been shown to be a mistake and some flexibility is usually better, at least that is my experience.

Dod

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Re: Why does HYP1's discussion seem to stir a rather emotional response?

#265556

Postby Lootman » November 19th, 2019, 7:29 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:With regards to the specific thread title, I think it might just save an awful lot of time if we all just agree that there are perhaps two 'emotional responses' in play here -
One, on the side of a HYP owner who clearly knows that the income-strategy that he's been following for years has delivered on the expectations of it, and the other one from the side of someone who can't stop telling him that it shouldn't have done......

I'm not sure that you can assume that all HYP's are successful but, more importantly, how does the practitioner of any strategy learn if they are never exposed to criticism? Don't we only learn from having mistakes pointed out to us? And why is it only HYP that needs that special protection?

A defensive attitude does not imply confidence and success, but rather fear and doubt.

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Re: Why does HYP1's discussion seem to stir a rather emotional response?

#265558

Postby IanTHughes » November 19th, 2019, 7:38 pm

Dod101 wrote:I am replying to ITH's post no 265505 of 4.53 pm today. It has become much too convoluted for me to extract bits from it but in any case all I wanted to say is that I would have thought that it was pretty obvious that when I referred to 'the Master' I was referring to the author of the HYP creed, namely none other than pyad himself.

I was right then. You do see Stephen Bland pyad as your Master. Tell me, do you attend secret meetings with other followers? Do you get together with other followers and chant his name while in a trance? Oh please do tell!


Ian

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Re: Why does HYP1's discussion seem to stir a rather emotional response?

#265559

Postby Itsallaguess » November 19th, 2019, 7:42 pm

Lootman wrote:
Itsallaguess wrote:
With regards to the specific thread title, I think it might just save an awful lot of time if we all just agree that there are perhaps two 'emotional responses' in play here -

One, on the side of a HYP owner who clearly knows that the income-strategy that he's been following for years has delivered on the expectations of it, and the other one from the side of someone who can't stop telling him that it shouldn't have done......


I'm not sure that you can assume that all HYP's are successful but, more importantly, how does the practitioner of any strategy learn if they are never exposed to criticism?

Don't we only learn from having mistakes pointed out to us? And why is it only HYP that needs that special protection?

A defensive attitude does not imply confidence and success, but rather fear and doubt.


I don't assume anything, and you can be sure that I wouldn't for a minute try to suggest 'that all HYP's are successful' - who would?

But why try to put those words into my mouth?

What's more interesting though is that some critics seem to think that holding up specific granular examples of HYP-shares 'gone-bad' can be a method of suggesting that HYP's can never be successful, which I hope you might agree would be an equally ridiculous claim to make...

The point of my post above was to highlight that whilst some HYP critics seem to repeatedly claim some sort of 'religious fervour' when it comes to HYP income-investors, it's often seemed to me that a mirror needs holding up to some of those frothing at the mouth with their constant stream of criticism too...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess


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