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TLF and its position within Social Media in the world today

Formerly "Lemon Fool - Improve the Recipe" repurposed as Room 102 (see above).
johnhemming
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TLF and its position within Social Media in the world today

#376863

Postby johnhemming » January 14th, 2021, 8:01 am

Moderator Message:
This is actually off-topic for Room 101 as general discussion of moderation. I have moved it to the Biscuit Bar (chas49)
I thought I would raise a topic about TLF as I feel it would be a good idea for the moderators to consider some issues not for immediate action, but as to whether over time a modification of the approach is needed.

I have been a long term user of the internet and although I did not have much engagement with usenet I have had some with various types of online messaging systems and fora.

It is an accepted fact that when people use pseudonyms they can be at times more rude and abusive than when they send messages with their own name.

I think also with the restrictions on personal movement and the use of online systems we are seeing perhaps a greater amount of tension in society and this may also be reflected in things like the attack on the Capitol.

Unsurprisingly TLF will to some extent reflect changes more widely and I have identified more recently a greater willingness from some posters to make insulting and defamatory postings about other users (including myself). I probably use half a dozen forums at the moment and have found myself to be subject to more abuse in this forum than the others. I post under my own name in all of them.

I have a lot of experience with defamation having issued and won three claims in the high court since 2018 and having issued another claim in 2020 which I expect to win. These all relate to comments made by others on the internet. I am also assisting with two other linked cases where I am not formally a party. I previously won a case in 1992, but did not need to issue proceedings between 1992 and 2018 as people were generally sensible.

On the other hand I am perhaps more willing to ignore such comments than many people as I know how much work there is involved in legal proceedings and the details of how things work out. Hence more recently I have simply taken to use the formal "foe" function to ignore certain posters. From a purely personal basis I would probably simply retire from the forum rather than start a legal process.

I accept entirely the rationale for people to post under pseudonyms although I do not do that myself.

However, under Section 5 of the 2013 Defamation Act for an internet organisation to be able to defend itself from a defamation claim it needs to be able to provide sufficient details of posters so that a claimant can issue proceedings against the poster even if that is not in the jurisdiction.

The issues, therefore, I would suggest are worth thinking about for the moderators are

a) Should the board moderation policy perhaps be a bit more active in discouraging direct personal criticism, abuse and defamatory comments or just wait for posts to be reported. Other forums that I participate in have a more active moderation policy.

b) Does the board have sufficient information about people posting to have a defence under S5 DA 2013.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/20 ... /5/enacted

As I said earlier I perhaps have a greater tolerance to abuse than many. I take the view that if people wish me to communicate with them they should be reasonably polite. Also I always have the simple option of logging off.

However, there may be others who when subjected to the same abuse have a thinner skin and kick off. As I know that can get very expensive (including for the forum as a whole) very quickly if people have not taken the correct steps to ensure that they are protected.

I also take the view that it would be generally good for people to be polite to each other and that if the forum continues tolerating more and more abuse that this will change the culture of the forum for the worse.

JohnB
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Re: TLF and its position within Social Media in the world today

#376893

Postby JohnB » January 14th, 2021, 9:27 am

The foe mechanism doesn't help with defamation, but I wish it could be strengthened to avoid irritation. I don't like the New Posts lists to be updated merely when a foe posts, or see their names in threads. I accept that foe's need to be able to read and quote my posts for forum consistency, but I want to blank them more.

I don't think real names should be a requirement here.

Dod101
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Re: TLF and its position within Social Media in the world today

#376899

Postby Dod101 » January 14th, 2021, 9:41 am

If the OP has been abused as much as he says, might he not be the problem? Personally I cannot say that I have ever been abused here. On or two silly comments by others but nothing remotely near what I would call abuse and I do not see a lot of abusive comments (Of course they may have been removed before I see them)

Personally I think these Boards are havens of peace compared to many, not that I look at many others as there is no need; I am primarily interested only in investment topics. I have not the slightest interest in stuff that goes on in Polite Discussions for instance and have no time for barrack room lawyers and the like, or posters who pontificate about their favourite topic.

Dod

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Re: TLF and its position within Social Media in the world today

#376902

Postby SalvorHardin » January 14th, 2021, 9:51 am

Unfortunately many people think that their online anonymity exempts them from the law of the land. It doesn't.

I had quite a bit of experience on the receiving end of this on TMF, notably by someone who decided that because I supported Brexit this made me as bad a person as a Nazi concentration camp guard. This person's employer was none too happy when I forwarded the various threats that they had sent me, many of which came directly from their office email account.

This was much more effective than actually suing for libel (or invoking the various laws against harassment and use of a electronic communications network to send threats (see s127 Communications Act 2003)).

Putting people in the foe box is one solution. I highly recommend it.

Leaving Polite Discussions is another (a decision made easy for me when the requirement to register for it was imposed). TLFs successor to LoST has attracted similar levels of abusive postings, many of which are made by people who only ever post there and have zero interest in investment or related matters (just as LoST was on TMF).

Arborbridge
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Re: TLF and its position within Social Media in the world today

#376906

Postby Arborbridge » January 14th, 2021, 10:00 am

Dod101 wrote:If the OP has been abused as much as he says, might he not be the problem? Personally I cannot say that I have ever been abused here. On or two silly comments by others but nothing remotely near what I would call abuse and I do not see a lot of abusive comments (Of course they may have been removed before I see them)

Personally I think these Boards are havens of peace compared to many, not that I look at many others as there is no need; I am primarily interested only in investment topics. I have not the slightest interest in stuff that goes on in Polite Discussions for instance and have no time for barrack room lawyers and the like, or posters who pontificate about their favourite topic.

Dod


I think this my own experience too. There has been a bit of joshing on occasions, but nothing one could call abusive or even particularly impolite. I've had a few, but it's all part of life and soon forgotten. What's worrying about the approach is that it could be a route for closing down debate, like the cancel culture which has been gaining hold.
If one is seriously worried about a comment, it is very easy to write to that person and ask for an apology, or mention it to the mods and they will take action. If it isn't serious enough to go to the effort of raising a complaint, then one must question whether it is much of a worry.

Incidentally, I find people sometimes express themselves badly - text comes without body language, as you've mentioned before, Dod - and this can make a misunderstanding more likely. When one PMs a person, they are usually willing to discuss it or apologise if hurt has been caused.

I want TLF to remain the friendly and safe place that it is now. To that end, directly tackling any abuser is the right way to go rather than creating an inflammed atmosphere which will affect and inhibit everyone generally.

Arb.

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Re: TLF and its position within Social Media in the world today

#376907

Postby chas49 » January 14th, 2021, 10:01 am

johnhemming wrote:However, under Section 5 of the 2013 Defamation Act for an internet organisation to be able to defend itself from a defamation claim it needs to be able to provide sufficient details of posters so that a claimant can issue proceedings against the poster even if that is not in the jurisdiction.

The issues, therefore, I would suggest are worth thinking about for the moderators are

...

b) Does the board have sufficient information about people posting to have a defence under S5 DA 2013.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/20 ... /5/enacted
...


This is a good question. Moderators don't necessarily know the answer (and certainly don't have access to members personal details). The admins/site owners will (I assume) have the answer in terms of what information can be provided in response to a proper request.

My brief reading of Section 5 suggests that there isn't a requirement for people to post under their real names. Simply imposing such a rule on the forum would require the site owners to collect ID etc to prove that the member claiming he is Boris Johnson is actually a person called Boris Johnson - though not to prove that he is *the* Boris Johnson. They would then have to store the relevant contact details in order to be able to mount the defence under this section. Would name and email address be enough? I can't see that information being enough to allow someone to issue legal proceedings. So presumably there has to be a valid real-world address at which service of documents can be delivered.

It certainly seems to be a can of worms

chas49
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Re: TLF and its position within Social Media in the world today

#376910

Postby chas49 » January 14th, 2021, 10:05 am

Moderator Message:
This is actually off-topic for Room 101 as general discussion of moderation. I have moved it to the Biscuit Bar (chas49)

Arborbridge
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Re: TLF and its position within Social Media in the world today

#376918

Postby Arborbridge » January 14th, 2021, 10:17 am

An interesting "sub" point here is that unless one directly confronts an abuser, or someone who you think has offended you - he may never know. That is, he may carry on discussing in the same manner (which may to him be not particularly unusual) because he does not know he has given you offence.
This would only make matters worse for the abused since he may feel the abuse is continuing. In other words, in my view, it would be emminently sensible, as in all polite society, for those being impolite or abusive to have to a chance to make amends.
If this process happens, there is every possibility that the two parties can resolve the problem without escalation or further action being necessary.

Arb

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Re: TLF and its position within Social Media in the world today

#376928

Postby tjh290633 » January 14th, 2021, 10:31 am

Looking at Polite Discussions in particular, there seems to be a lot of acrimony around. As a moderator I had to delete one post yesterday with vile abuse, directed at the OP.

Somehow politeness seems to have been lost, be it between brexiteers and remainers/rejoiners, or between those who favour one method of reporting Covid statistics and another.

There is no need for almost a full page of accusations and rebuttals, nor is there the need to quote a full exchange to give a one-line answer. A lot of it is down to the pot calling the kettle a grimy one, but there is excessive repetition. I try not to interfere in some of these two-person squabbles, but it is tempting to say "Enough" and delete all further comments and lock the topic.

TJH

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Re: TLF and its position within Social Media in the world today

#376931

Postby johnhemming » January 14th, 2021, 10:42 am

Dod101 wrote:If the OP has been abused as much as he says, might he not be the problem?

I accept that I get abused because of some of the views I express. Again I don't think that is right anyway because people should be willing to discuss things openly and not abuse people simply because they disagree with them. There is a human trait you can find from time to time which is to attack those who are heretics. That does not make it a good human trait.

On the other hand I do get involved in discussions about political issues. Still I think this is an issue for the forum moderators to consider.

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Re: TLF and its position within Social Media in the world today

#376935

Postby Clariman » January 14th, 2021, 10:44 am

johnhemming wrote:Unsurprisingly TLF will to some extent reflect changes more widely and I have identified more recently a greater willingness from some posters to make insulting and defamatory postings about other users (including myself). I probably use half a dozen forums at the moment and have found myself to be subject to more abuse in this forum than the others. I post under my own name in all of them.

John - I am disappointed to read this. If you PM me I will look into it. However, the rules of this site are very clear and there should be no insulting or defamatory posts

Extract from Rules Section 3
  • To make this a valued and successful discussion forum, LemonFool asks all users to be respectful, understanding and helpful to other posters
  • It is forbidden to write defamatory remarks, whether about site users or others. Any potentially defamatory posts will be removed without warning
  • Wilful and disruptive behaviour is unacceptable, such as trolling or repeatedly arguing in an unconstructive and unhelpful manner.
  • Topics or posts which appear to incite or encourage an act that may be illegal, or advise in favour of a course of action which may be illegal, or any post which is in itself might be criminal or illegal, may be deleted without warning, and appropriate sanctions may be taken against posters of such material.
  • Robust debate is allowed, but it must remain polite and respectful at all times. Stick to the facts and argue the points discussed, rather than criticise the poster.
  • ...
  • Where a user identifies any post that contravenes the above rules, LemonFool kindly requests that you click on the "!" to report the post to the moderation team who will deal with it

Can I also draw your attention to the last point which requests that people report problems if they see posts that contravene these rules. Many people do.

johnhemming wrote:The issues, therefore, I would suggest are worth thinking about for the moderators are

a) Should the board moderation policy perhaps be a bit more active in discouraging direct personal criticism, abuse and defamatory comments or just wait for posts to be reported. Other forums that I participate in have a more active moderation policy.

b) Does the board have sufficient information about people posting to have a defence under S5 DA 2013.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/20 ... /5/enacted

I cannot speak for other forums but TLF does more than "discourage" defamatory comments - it disallows them. I would be staggered if all members of the site were not aware of that and I would encourage people to report any posts that contravene this rule. Should we be more "active" in discouraging them? We are open to ideas on how that could be done. We have a team of volunteer moderators who handle all reported posts and also proactively handle issues when they see them. We do not actively read every post on every board so some may be missed if they go unreported.

Ref the legislation, it would perhaps be more appropriate for Stooz to respond as the site is now a Ltd company of which Stooz is the sole director. However, I think we have that covered and I know of one instance where we have provided details to a complainant.

But finally, can I emphasise how important it is to have respectful discussion. It can be summarised as - always remember to play the ball not the [wo]man. And can I also request that you report posts which you feel are defamatory. This, above all, is a community and we must all play our part.

Clariman

AsleepInYorkshire
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Re: TLF and its position within Social Media in the world today

#376937

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » January 14th, 2021, 10:45 am

Arborbridge wrote:An interesting "sub" point here is that unless one directly confronts an abuser, or someone who you think has offended you - he may never know. That is, he may carry on discussing in the same manner (which may to him be not particularly unusual) because he does not know he has given you offence.
This would only make matters worse for the abused since he may feel the abuse is continuing. In other words, in my view, it would be emminently sensible, as in all polite society, for those being impolite or abusive to have to a chance to make amends.
If this process happens, there is every possibility that the two parties can resolve the problem without escalation or further action being necessary.

Arb

70% of communication between us is through "body language". Therefore, I'd offer up that use of internet forums really requires all users to ensure that their written words cannot be misunderstood. And at times that can be difficult. It's almost akin to arbitrating every post one puts up. I can only speak for myself but I often put up responses to posts and save them in draft. If I feel strongly enough I can come back and post at a later time when I've had the chance to reflect.

I have said this before and huge apologies for constantly repeating. I have many strengths. One is not the ability to deal with some of the more robust personalities and their posts. That's when I have to recognise it's time for me to withdraw from a conversation. It's simple self preservation. I'd highly recommend using the ignore poster option on TLF. It's not rude. It's what we would do in the real world with those we prefer to keep at arms length. We can't always share the same values all the time. Impossible. Often the basis for my feelings towards a post or poster are to be found in my belief that everyone should be dignified and respectful all the time. That belief creates an entitlement which I then protect. I'm the source of my own problem and I need to work on that constantly.

For the most TLF is a pleasant environment and getting to know other posters does help to understand their comments and styles of posting.

AiY

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Re: TLF and its position within Social Media in the world today

#376938

Postby johnhemming » January 14th, 2021, 10:46 am

chas49 wrote:It certainly seems to be a can of worms

It is indeed a can of worms, but given that there has been a growing tendency to make defamatory comments I thought I should raise it so that it is considered before it becomes an issue.

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Re: TLF and its position within Social Media in the world today

#376939

Postby swill453 » January 14th, 2021, 10:46 am

tjh290633 wrote:Looking at Polite Discussions in particular, there seems to be a lot of acrimony around. As a moderator I had to delete one post yesterday with vile abuse, directed at the OP.

Interesting. I have to admit I was tending to think the OP was being a little thin-skinned*, but of course I realise that any replies he had which were genuinely abusive would probably have been reported and deleted.

* I speak as someone who has been called abusive by the OP, thus presumably am on his "foe" list. I called him patronising and exasperating. My posts are extant.

Scott.

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Re: TLF and its position within Social Media in the world today

#376941

Postby tjh290633 » January 14th, 2021, 10:49 am

swill453 wrote:* I speak as someone who has been called abusive by the OP, thus presumably am on his "foe" list. I called him patronising and exasperating. My posts are extant.

Scott.

I think it is one of those irregular verbs, I am commenting, you are criticising, he is abusive.

Perhaps the answer is to think before posting.

TJH

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Re: TLF and its position within Social Media in the world today

#376942

Postby johnhemming » January 14th, 2021, 10:50 am

Clariman wrote:John - I am disappointed to read this. If you PM me I will look into it.

I will do this in the future, but have not done it in the past.

However, I have flagged a number of posters as ignore because they were abusive or defamatory. I would not be inclined to unflag them merely to report their posts (they still comment on my posts from time to time) if they continue to be abusive or defamatory.

I made this comment because my views, posting style and identity are consistent between online systems, but I get the abuse and defamation here, but not elsewhere.

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Re: TLF and its position within Social Media in the world today

#376952

Postby johnhemming » January 14th, 2021, 10:59 am

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote: But it is a fact that some posters are "more equal" than others when posting on this forum. I won't mention names but I am sure you have noticed too. On the odd occasion, I have reported insulting posts and had them removed, but more often those posters with a higher privilege do seem to be able to say things beyond anything I have posted and had deleted. It's life, I suppose. I try not to rise to the bait anymore. The mods by and large do a good job here. I suppose all forums have some posters who are cut more slack than others.


I do have some agreement with this, but don't want to get involved in any detailed analysis. I think my main point is that there should be some willingness from moderators to take action to deal with abusive or defamatory comments when they appear rather than necessarily to await complaints. I have noticed some real concentration on certain points such as posting links to other sites and the technical question as to what is and what is not HYP. However, when it comes to posters being abusive that does not have the same attention.

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Re: TLF and its position within Social Media in the world today

#376955

Postby Clariman » January 14th, 2021, 11:01 am

johnhemming wrote:
Clariman wrote:John - I am disappointed to read this. If you PM me I will look into it.

I will do this in the future, but have not done it in the past.

However, I have flagged a number of posters as ignore because they were abusive or defamatory. I would not be inclined to unflag them merely to report their posts (they still comment on my posts from time to time) if they continue to be abusive or defamatory.

I made this comment because my views, posting style and identity are consistent between online systems, but I get the abuse and defamation here, but not elsewhere.

John

May I suggest the following approach in the future, then ..

  • Report any new posts you feel are offensive or defamatory. Do this by clicking on the ! at the top right of the offending post. The Moderators will then deal with it. Generally this would be either deleting the post or by editing out the offensive comments and putting a Mod box to say that has been done. This is the first line of defence.
  • If you are unhappy with the Moderation response, contact the Moderator involved, if you know who it is.
  • If you remain unhappy, contact one of the Admins (Stooz, Clariman, Redsturgeon) or post in Room 101
  • By all means continue to use the Ignore button
  • Anything really serious you need to report, the by all means go directly to Stooz, copying me
I am disappointed to hear that you find TLF worse than others. The general feedback we get is that the site is well moderated. Are the other sites also investment and general discussion ones or are they on topics where people are less likely to find something to argue about?

C

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Re: TLF and its position within Social Media in the world today

#376965

Postby johnhemming » January 14th, 2021, 11:05 am

Clariman wrote:The general feedback we get is that the site is well moderated. Are the other sites also investment and general discussion ones or are they on topics where people are less likely to find something to argue about?


The other sites tend to be the same topics with the same disagreements and the same tribal allegiances to points of view.

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Re: TLF and its position within Social Media in the world today

#376972

Postby Arborbridge » January 14th, 2021, 11:12 am

johnhemming wrote:
Clariman wrote:John - I am disappointed to read this. If you PM me I will look into it.

I will do this in the future, but have not done it in the past.

However, I have flagged a number of posters as ignore because they were abusive or defamatory. I would not be inclined to unflag them merely to report their posts (they still comment on my posts from time to time) if they continue to be abusive or defamatory.

I made this comment because my views, posting style and identity are consistent between online systems, but I get the abuse and defamation here, but not elsewhere.


I am sorry to hear that you feel this abusive or defammatory behaviour. The problem with your putting a general comment like this is that many of us will be wondering whether we are personally at fault,. Those persons do not know whether you are referring to them, or someone else.
I for one would prefer to know, to be directly informed, that I have given offence, whether to you or anyone else. My purpose on TLF is not to make people's lives unhappy, but on the other I also know that I am sometimes guilty of being robust in my language. Some posters seem to relish a robust exchange, and others certainly do not - we can learnt from experience who is in which category.

If I have given offence - to you or anyone else - provided I know about it, I will apologise and hopefully learn from it.

Arb.


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