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Posts deleted without comment

Formerly "Lemon Fool - Improve the Recipe" repurposed as Room 102 (see above).
Dod101
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Re: Posts deleted without comment

#381757

Postby Dod101 » January 28th, 2021, 11:06 pm

without knowing or being particularly interested in the subject of johnhemming's post that was deleted, I must say that I personally find it very perplexing when a post is deleted without comment. It has only happened to me once or twice.

johnhemming otoh, has a bit of 'previous'. His posts can be a bit 'edgy' and maybe he needs to think about what he is posting to cause the deletions.

Dod

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Re: Posts deleted without comment

#381771

Postby Mike4 » January 28th, 2021, 11:45 pm

MDW1954 wrote:
88V8 wrote:If it really takes so long for the mods to send a short message, one has to wonder why. One can rattle something off pretty quickly I would have thought.

V8


Three points:

1) It's not so much the time, as the number. Most of us are working. All of us are busy. And the site's rules are clear: deleted posts don't have to be explained. If they are evidently off-topic or downright abusive, I for one usually don't bother.

2) Today, a user on the HYP-P board has two posts deleted. I exchanged multiple messages, and worked with them to establish a clear understanding of what the issue was. This was a significant time investment, within a normal working day.

3) If a user has had a post deleted, experience shows that the last thing that they want to receive is a post that comprises "something that has been rattled off pretty quickly". For proof, post something off-topic, and I'll delete it and rattle something off pretty quickly by way of explanation.

MDW1954


I can totally understand this.

The TMF method was really slick and I've yet to see it improved upon on any other site including this.

A post is either left to stand in its entirety or deleted. If deleted, an automated email is sent to the author telling them is has been deleted but quoting the post, quoting the rule it breached, and inviting them to edit and re-post compliantly.

Neat, fast and fully informing the offender. Could this be set up here perhaps?

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Re: Posts deleted without comment

#381774

Postby csearle » January 28th, 2021, 11:57 pm

Editing out an offending part of a post without deleting the whole thing can be quite useful too though. I maintain a link to each post with the extracted text in case the poster wants to know what was removed.

It is fairly quick to PM the poster of a deleted post. In fact I pretty much always do unless it is spam or I've warned that poster already that future repeat infringements will be removed without further warning.
C.

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Re: Posts deleted without comment

#381777

Postby SteMiS » January 29th, 2021, 12:13 am

AsleepInYorkshire wrote:When posting it's reasonably easy to copy and paste each post into a Notepad file and save it. 30 seconds (if that) of the posters time.

That would allow moderators to delete without having to send the post to a poster.

Surely we need to respect the moderators time first?

Am I allowed to suggest it's not up to the moderators to wait on us hand and foot?

AiY

I think the point, and I agree with John on this, is that you may never know that the post has even been deleted. Sometimes the deletion can be for a specific bit which does not invalidate the rest of the post, which the poster may have spent considerable time on constructing.

I don't see that it's that hard of time consuming to send a message (including a copy of the post) saying that the post has been deleted for reason X with the proviso that the moderators are not obliged to enter into a dialogue about the deletion. That would at least allow the poster to amend and repost without having to re-do all the work.

After all, how many posts are moderators deleting ?

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Re: Posts deleted without comment

#381780

Postby csearle » January 29th, 2021, 12:24 am

SteMiS wrote:After all, how many posts are moderators deleting ?
I have deleted three in the last five minutes. In lieu of three PMs I just posted a mod comment on the thread they were in. Admittedly this will not trigger a message unless they are subscribed to the thread with notifications switched on but it would be a bit tedious to formulate three PMs. If they want the content they can PM me for it.

Chris

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Re: Posts deleted without comment

#381782

Postby Mike4 » January 29th, 2021, 12:58 am

csearle wrote:I have deleted three in the last five minutes.
Chris


Oi, leave my posts alone!! :D

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Re: Posts deleted without comment

#381787

Postby GoSeigen » January 29th, 2021, 7:23 am

johnhemming wrote:I wish moderators would not delete posts without leaving some comment or sending a message.

It's always been the policy here despite many requests to alter it. You cannot be unaware of that and it's unlikely to change, so probably best just to suck it up or go elsewhere.

GS

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Re: Posts deleted without comment

#381795

Postby Arborbridge » January 29th, 2021, 8:36 am

Mike4 wrote:I find John's complaint perplexing. I'm curious about what happens when one has a post deleted. How does one find out? How is John finding out? Is one informed by PM or a Notification? Maybe it happens to me too, but without me noticing.



I sometimes find out because there is a notifiaction telling me that my post has been thanked, or quoted - when you click the link, the post isn't there. The only other immediate way is "I'm sure I posted a comment - where is it?".

It can be hurtful that something you've spent much time on has vanished, and I'd prefer a notification system - but I appreciate the Mods are volunteers and do not have time to get too embroiled, so I accept the current system is what we have to work within, cheerfully (well, sanguinely anyway).

The mods do a good job in general, and I am thankful to them, but if the system can be improved, I would be grateful too.

Arb.

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Re: Posts deleted without comment

#381803

Postby Wizard » January 29th, 2021, 9:15 am

GoSeigen wrote:
johnhemming wrote:I wish moderators would not delete posts without leaving some comment or sending a message.

It's always been the policy here despite many requests to alter it. You cannot be unaware of that and it's unlikely to change, so probably best just to suck it up or go elsewhere.

GS

My bold.

From his last post in the thread I get the impression that is exactly what he intends to do. If that is the case it is a real shame, IMHO he was one of a very small number of posters here who provide(d) genuinely useful comment at times.

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Re: Posts deleted without comment

#381806

Postby Mike4 » January 29th, 2021, 9:31 am

Arborbridge wrote:
Mike4 wrote:I find John's complaint perplexing. I'm curious about what happens when one has a post deleted. How does one find out? How is John finding out? Is one informed by PM or a Notification? Maybe it happens to me too, but without me noticing.



I sometimes find out because there is a notifiaction telling me that my post has been thanked, or quoted - when you click the link, the post isn't there. The only other immediate way is "I'm sure I posted a comment - where is it?".

It can be hurtful that something you've spent much time on has vanished, and I'd prefer a notification system - but I appreciate the Mods are volunteers and do not have time to get too embroiled, so I accept the current system is what we have to work within, cheerfully (well, sanguinely anyway).

The mods do a good job in general, and I am thankful to them, but if the system can be improved, I would be grateful too.

Arb.


So I think it might be worth picking this apart properly. To me, John's complaints is/was that he received no personalised explanation for a post deletion, whereas from what you are saying when a post is deleted, the software does not send an automated notice to the poster and I'm, wondering if this is John's complaint in reality.

So, if John was complaining about receiving no personalised explanation, I think he is being unreasonable. But if his complaint is, as you suggest, that one receives no notification of any sort on post deletion, I agree with his irritation and disappointment.

Once programmed in, it would be no effort whatever from Team Mod if the forum software was to notify a poster of a deletion, just as used to happen on TMF.

Edit to add: So my point is, we need to distinguish between:
1) Personalised comment, which the deleting mod may or may not send, and
2) Automated notification, which appears never to happen
Last edited by Mike4 on January 29th, 2021, 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Posts deleted without comment

#381807

Postby swill453 » January 29th, 2021, 9:35 am

Mike4 wrote:Once programmed in, it would be no effort whatever from Team Mod if the forum software was to notify a poster of a deletion, just as used to happen on TMF.

I think if that was (relatively) easy, it would have been done a long time ago, given that it's been talked/complained about for years.

Scott.

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Re: Posts deleted without comment

#381808

Postby dealtn » January 29th, 2021, 9:36 am

88V8 wrote:Randomly...

I have only had a very few posts deleted, I can think of only one that had taken much effort to write.

Deletion is I imagine more likely if people just respond to posts using the New Post button or whatever it's called - I don't use it = regardless of the board on which they are posting. Not saying that's John's case.

In John's position I think I might feel irked. It would be a shame to lose someone whose contributions are well considered. He could however save himself a lot of time by abstaining from the CV statistics.....

If it really takes so long for the mods to send a short message, one has to wonder why. One can ratlle something off pretty quickly I would have thought.

V8


You're proposing (self) censorship? That would improve the site you think?

If a particular subject isn't of interest, to anyone, I would think a better solution is not to read it, rather than not to write it.

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Re: Posts deleted without comment

#381809

Postby 88V8 » January 29th, 2021, 9:42 am

dspp wrote:V8, et al,

... serial offenders. ......act quickly .....have to obey the "no posting again too quickly" rules ......modding from a small screen can be very difficult ...........our actual Modding powers..... And we too have human failings.


Thankyou for taking the time to cover those points.
In particular I had not considered the 'small screen' issue, as I view the internet world solely through a 19" monitor. Sometimes, where one stands depends on where one sits.

dealtn wrote:You're proposing (self) censorship? That would improve the site you think?

If a particular subject isn't of interest, to anyone, I would think a better solution is not to read it, rather than not to write it.

We do that already, surely?

And I agree that the thin-skinned should self-censor their reading.

No, I was just griping on John's behalf about deletion without written explanation. But the mods have answered the point, I think.

V8
Last edited by 88V8 on January 29th, 2021, 9:53 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Posts deleted without comment

#381811

Postby XFool » January 29th, 2021, 9:48 am

Mike4 wrote:I find John's complaint perplexing. I'm curious about what happens when one has a post deleted. How does one find out? How is John finding out? Is one informed by PM or a Notification? Maybe it happens to me too, but without me noticing.

That is exactly one of the issues here. Not the only one.

You "find out" by noticing (if you do) that one of your posts is apparently 'missing in action'. Whereby, depending on the timing and the state of your memory, the process is:

Did I dream I made a post? Did I post it on another thread rather than where I am now looking? Did I merely Display it, see the post as it would appear and then forget to actually Submit it? Did I Submit it but another post was made in the interval and I missed the warning and assumed it had been posted, but it wasn't? Then, if you don't know the thread moderator (I usually don't), you either have to shrug your shoulders - likely none the wiser - or have to resort to Room 101...

Mike4 wrote:If posts are routinely deleted completely without personalised comment from TLF and without automated notification, How does John know a post of his has been deleted without comment, other than by periodically visiting all his posts to check they are all still there?

Exactly! And with a variable time interval... (See above)

This is not a new issue.

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Re: Posts deleted without comment

#381815

Postby Itsallaguess » January 29th, 2021, 10:02 am

XFool wrote:
You "find out" by noticing (if you do) that one of your posts is apparently 'missing in action'. Whereby, depending on the timing and the state of your memory, the process is:

Did I dream I made a post? Did I post it on another thread rather than where I am now looking? Did I merely Display it, see the post as it would appear and then forget to actually Submit it? Did I Submit it but another post was made in the interval and I missed the warning and assumed it had been posted, but it wasn't? Then, if you don't know the thread moderator (I usually don't), you either have to shrug your shoulders - likely none the wiser - or have to resort to Room 101...


Well you know for a fact that I've deleted posts of yours in the past without subsequent notifications XFool, but you've been warned well in advance that that was likely to happen if you continued to post politically argumentative posts outside of the Polite Discussions board...

Your response at the time was that you took it on yourself not to want to register for the Polite Discussions area, and as such, seemed to think it was in your gift to simple ignore the site rules regarding political posts, and just continue to post politically argumentative posts wherever you chose...

Whilst it's clear that there is likely to be a continued grey area where moderators might not live up to the high expectations of board-users in the area of post-deletion notifications, I'd like to think that the majority of sensible guidance-following posters will also recognise that there's often some posters who cause so much trouble that they're simply not worth spending any additional time on with such niceties, and after suitable warnings that this was likely to be the case if such behaviour were to continue, then some posters really do need to lie in the bed that they've made for themselves...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: Posts deleted without comment

#381825

Postby XFool » January 29th, 2021, 10:27 am

Itsallaguess wrote:Well you know for a fact that I've deleted posts of yours in the past without subsequent notifications XFool, but you've been warned well in advance that that was likely to happen if you continued to post politically argumentative posts outside of the Polite Discussions board...

What I "know for a fact" is I am not interested in posting party Political argumentative posts on TLF, simply for their own sake. Not being a particularly political animal myself. *** THAT IS WHY I AM NOR REGISTERED FOR THE Polite Discussions BOARD ***.

What I also "know for a fact" is some TLF moderators seem to have fetishised on the belief that ANY EXPRESSION OF DIFFERENCE of opinion on TLF, of any kind, is automatically to be designated as "politically argumentative posts" and therefore can be dumped in Polite Discussions - even against the expressed wishes of the poster (e.g. rather than simply being deleted).

I find this means two things:

Many potentially interesting discussions simply cannot be had on TLF, because of this highly artificial categorisation of 'political'.
Since I am not a party to this very TLF definition of what is and what is not 'political' I never feel confident any post of mine on any topic will ever satisfy TLF Rules of posting. Perhaps one should simply stick to posting about something like gardening?

XFool

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Re: Posts deleted without comment

#381836

Postby dealtn » January 29th, 2021, 11:15 am

XFool wrote:Many potentially interesting discussions simply cannot be had on TLF, because of this highly artificial categorisation of 'political'.
Since I am not a party to this very TLF definition of what is and what is not 'political' I never feel confident any post of mine on any topic will ever satisfy TLF Rules of posting. Perhaps one should simply stick to posting about something like gardening?

XFool


Or maybe ... ?

The Lemon Fool

Shares, Investment and Personal Finance Discussion Forums

The clue is in the site's tagline.

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Re: Posts deleted without comment

#381853

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » January 29th, 2021, 11:50 am

Arborbridge wrote:
Mike4 wrote:I find John's complaint perplexing. I'm curious about what happens when one has a post deleted. How does one find out? How is John finding out? Is one informed by PM or a Notification? Maybe it happens to me too, but without me noticing.



I sometimes find out because there is a notifiaction telling me that my post has been thanked, or quoted - when you click the link, the post isn't there. The only other immediate way is "I'm sure I posted a comment - where is it?".

It can be hurtful that something you've spent much time on has vanished, and I'd prefer a notification system - but I appreciate the Mods are volunteers and do not have time to get too embroiled, so I accept the current system is what we have to work within, cheerfully (well, sanguinely anyway).

The mods do a good job in general, and I am thankful to them, but if the system can be improved, I would be grateful too.

Arb.

Excellent post. May I point out that I think that "improvements will come at a cost to a moderators time" and that may be the underlying issue we are discussing. Chris has mentioned earlier that the "software" isn't really "one click". I also feel more than miffed when a post is removed and I am not informed. But I've managed to convince myself that the moderators time is worth more to them than my feelings about a bulletin board post.

I completely understand John's point. I too have had a post removed without explanation. And I too felt very negatively about it. But, after I calmed myself down I managed to accept it was kinder for me and the moderator to move on and leave the subject behind. Life's too short.

I've said this before so huge apologies Arb for repeating myself. The mods, as you've said, do a great job for nothing. I see that as a kindness they offer me. And I can also imagine that some days even our moderators cannot be perfect and perhaps even they are having a bad day. We never know how they are feeling at the other end of the keyboard. As an example I feel rubbish today. I did have some brandy last night, but not a stupid amount at all. But the point is if I was moderating perhaps I may not feel like donating an extra five minutes of my time today.

We have some super characters within the community. And many are very tuned in to other people's thoughts and feelings. I'm not a religious person in any sense but I suggest we are blessed to have this kind of opportunity.

I'm sure your points are entirely valid and more than correct. I'm convinced the moderators do take on board much of what we say and they do appear to put additional effort in behind the scenes too.

I cannot and will not disagree with John's thoughts on the subject. I think it's clear he is also listening to the responses from the moderators and the wider community. This is a community issue. But everything comes with compromise and understanding.

And on the upside as I look at the numbers I can see I've still managed to get over 1,700 posts by the moderators so I'm still beating them hands down :lol: (May bad :oops: )

Take care

AiY

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Re: Posts deleted without comment

#381871

Postby XFool » January 29th, 2021, 12:12 pm

dealtn wrote:
XFool wrote:Many potentially interesting discussions simply cannot be had on TLF, because of this highly artificial categorisation of 'political'.
Since I am not a party to this very TLF definition of what is and what is not 'political' I never feel confident any post of mine on any topic will ever satisfy TLF Rules of posting. Perhaps one should simply stick to posting about something like gardening?

XFool

Or maybe ... ?

The Lemon Fool

Shares, Investment and Personal Finance Discussion Forums

The clue is in the site's tagline.

OK. Then delete ALL BOARDS that are not strictly: Shares, Investment and Personal Finance Discussion Forums

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Re: Posts deleted without comment

#381874

Postby Gengulphus » January 29th, 2021, 12:15 pm

Mike4 wrote:
MDW1954 wrote:
88V8 wrote:If it really takes so long for the mods to send a short message, one has to wonder why. One can rattle something off pretty quickly I would have thought.

Three points:

1) It's not so much the time, as the number. Most of us are working. All of us are busy. And the site's rules are clear: deleted posts don't have to be explained. If they are evidently off-topic or downright abusive, I for one usually don't bother.

2) Today, a user on the HYP-P board has two posts deleted. I exchanged multiple messages, and worked with them to establish a clear understanding of what the issue was. This was a significant time investment, within a normal working day.

3) If a user has had a post deleted, experience shows that the last thing that they want to receive is a post that comprises "something that has been rattled off pretty quickly". For proof, post something off-topic, and I'll delete it and rattle something off pretty quickly by way of explanation.

I can totally understand this.

The TMF method was really slick and I've yet to see it improved upon on any other site including this.

A post is either left to stand in its entirety or deleted. If deleted, an automated email is sent to the author telling them is has been deleted but quoting the post, quoting the rule it breached, and inviting them to edit and re-post compliantly.

Neat, fast and fully informing the offender. Could this be set up here perhaps?

It wasn't completely automated - in particular, the TMF moderators could choose whether to send the author the notification email. Every now and then they failed to do so, and if a poster noticed (*) and asked for a copy of it to be returned to them, the TMF moderators would generally do so. As far as I remember the TMF moderators' explanations, it was that they generally chose not to send the automated email in clear cases of spamming, and also when they did a mass deletion e.g. of an off-topic side-argument that had erupted overnight and spawned dozens of posts before it had been reported and they had been able to notice and deal with the report(s). There might also have been cases where 'hate speech' or libel was involved and TMF didn't want to take any part in encouraging it, not even returning it to an author who might not have kept a copy (and who doesn't need it returned if they have kept a copy).

I suspect that to send the email, they had to tick a box and select among a number of standard reasons for deletion or an "other" reason (for which they then had to type a brief explanation to be put into the email), with the system then automatically completing and sending the email. For a mass deletion, even though the amount of work that required for each deleted post was small, that could add up to a significant amount of time and effort because the reason could vary between the individual deleted posts (**) and so couldn't be supplied just once for the whole lot (and quite possibly the TMF board software didn't have an option to supply a single reason for a mass deletion even if the reason was the same for every deleted post).

IIRC, it also occasionally happened that the TMF moderators failed to send the notification email on an ordinary deletion, I'd guess by simply forgetting to tick a box saying it should be sent. Certainly I ended up emailing them on few occasions (under once per year on average over the ~17 years I was a TMF poster) asking for the return of a post of mine that I'd put a considerable amount of work into and that had been deleted, and I don't think they were all cases of being caught up in a mass deletion.

As for whether it could be done here, having read a fair amount (but by no means all!) of the phpBB documentation, I think it would require a phpBB extension to add a 'delete this post with a notification PM/email sent to the post's author' button to the facilities accessible to moderators. I haven't managed to spot such an extension among those offered by phpBB.com, which might just be a failure on my part but I suspect it means we would have to design and develop such an extension for ourselves. And designing it may not be entirely trivial, especially if it's done with PMs due to the way that PMs work, with limits on the number of PMs that a user can store and PMs remaining in the sender's outbox until the recipient actually picks them up. It would for instance not be at all desirable for moderators' outboxes to become full due to non-cooperating users refusing to pick the notification PMs up, or simply failing to do so because they don't notice they're there or the user having ceased to visit TLF.

I do agree though that it would be very useful for things to work that way, and specifically for users to routinely get feedback when a post of theirs has been deleted, including why it has been deleted - and the same goes for moderator decisions to edit a post. One particular area where that feedback would be useful is to do with the site rule "Robust debate is allowed, but it must remain polite and respectful at all times. Stick to the facts and argue the points discussed, rather than criticise the poster." People's opinions can differ markedly on whether a post is commenting ad hominem / personally / critically, I think mainly because some interpret comments as doing that only if they clearly attack the poster, while others also do so if they're only being dismissive about the poster's arguments on the basis of who posted them. E.g. a comment along "Well, you would say that, wouldn't you - you're successful and well off." lines wouldn't strike the former group as breaking the rule - calling someone successful and well off isn't criticising them! Or at least, it isn't if you only pay attention to the very commonly-used meaning of 'criticise' as meaning 'comment adversely on' and if you don't notice or disregard the implication of being blind to concerns that matter to less successful and not so well off people - and the latter group don't do at least one of those things, possibly paying attention to the alternative meaning of 'criticise' as 'comment analytically on', so e.g. a film critic criticises a film regardless of whether their review ends up slating the film or being a glowing review.

That's not intended to ask for a resolution of such differences of interpretation here, but just to say that they do exist (***) and there's very little in the way of effective feedback from moderators to help users learn what the moderators' standards are on such matters. There is often feedback in the form of a post disappearing or being edited with the addition of a moderator message saying that an edit has been done and why - but it's hardly effective feedback because (a) it may never be noticed by the users who posted the offending comments, who are probably mainly (or even exclusively) reading new posts in the thread, not re-reading old ones; (b) even if it is noticed, the poster may not remember want the offending comments were in enough detail to see how they offended and thus learn what not to do again.

(*) It was easier to notice that a message had been deleted on TMF, and to be certain that it wasn't e.g. a case of having written the message but failed to finally submit it, because deleted posts didn't entirely vanish there - instead, a short message along "This seems to have been eaten by aliens from the planet Zog. Or else it's been deleted for breaking site rules..." lines was shown.

(**) One particular reason why it could vary is that it could happen that an individual post in an off-topic side-argument could be on-topic, but be deprived of its context because it was responding to a specific point someone else had made in an otherwise largely off-topic post - a situation the TMF moderators described as the deleted post having been "left dangling" by other deletions (****). So the reasons for the individual posts being deleted in a mass deletion would often vary between being "off-topic" and being "left dangling".

(***) As a recent piece of evidence that such differences of interpretation exist among TLF users, see the exchange in the first section of viewtopic.php?p=379952#p379952.

(****) Unlike the TLF moderators, the TMF moderators couldn't deal with the situation by editing the post being replied to down to just the specific on-topic point, because the TMF board software didn't give them the ability to edit posts, just to delete posts. And a related point is a difference between the two systems about replying specifically to another post. On TLF, you either click on "Post Reply" to produce a general reply to an entire thread, not picking out any particular post in the thread as being replied to unless you take care to add a quote from or a link to a specific post to your reply, or you click on the button in a post to reply to that specific post and by default get a post containing a quote of that entire post (apart from nested quotes more than a few levels deep being removed) but no link to that post. On TMF, there was no facility to produce a general reply to an entire thread, and the only way to post a reply was to click "Post Reply" in a specific post (it was a button in each post rather than in each thread as it is on TLF). When you did that, your reply got a subject line which was fixed as "Re: " followed by the thread subject, with no ability to edit it as there is on TLF, and that subject line was a link to the specific post that you'd replied to. Your post didn't by default get any quote. So the easiest method of replying to a post on TLF ends up with a quote of the entirety of the post one is replying to but no link to it, whereas on TMF it ended up with a link to that post but no quote from it. That meant that a post being "left dangling" was more important on TMF than it is on TLF, as a deletion of the post being replied to would leave readers with no way of seeing what point it's replying to... It also meant that it was more important on TMF that links to posts continued to work to some extent, which probably helps to explain (*) above.

Gengulphus


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