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New board: Philanthropy?

Formerly "Lemon Fool - Improve the Recipe" repurposed as Room 102 (see above).
GrahamPlatt
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New board: Philanthropy?

#401407

Postby GrahamPlatt » April 3rd, 2021, 5:24 pm

We really need another thread - if not another board entirely to develop the haves vs have-nots discussions: Philanthropy?

viewtopic.php?f=71&t=28754

viewtopic.php?f=99&t=28714&start=20#p401374

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/a ... t-all-away

Yeah, it’s a “long read” that Guardian article. But worth your time.

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Re: New board: Philanthropy?

#401412

Postby Clariman » April 3rd, 2021, 5:38 pm

Can you give a brief explanation or overview of the suggestion. I'm presuming it's a serious one. I will try to read the links and threads at some point, but a short explanation would be helpful.

Thanks
Clariman

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Re: New board: Philanthropy?

#401445

Postby GrahamPlatt » April 3rd, 2021, 6:39 pm

Finding discussions on different boards addressing the common issue of poverty, and then discovering the G article coming at it from another angle, I thought there may be grounds for a dedicated forum. I’m not entirely sure this is a “good” idea or where it may lead... politics &c being involved. But if it were to be a board of itself, threads could deal with subjects such as good causes, community efforts (food banks etc), donating (inc tax), sociology & politics thereof etc. It could work out.

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Re: New board: Philanthropy?

#401456

Postby Gengulphus » April 3rd, 2021, 6:57 pm

GrahamPlatt wrote:We really need another thread - if not another board entirely to develop the haves vs have-nots discussions: Philanthropy?

viewtopic.php?f=71&t=28754

viewtopic.php?f=99&t=28714&start=20#p401374

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/a ... t-all-away

Yeah, it’s a “long read” that Guardian article. But worth your time.

I've read enough of that Guardian article to know that it's not about philanthropy. Abigail Disney, the person it starts by describing, is a philanthropist on a scale that few can possibly manage, but it's mainly about what she wants to happen on top of that:

She has been donating to good causes ever since – $72m (£52m) and counting, mostly to groups helping women in prison, women living with HIV, and victims of domestic violence. But giving it away is no longer enough. She wants the tax collector to take more money, not only from her, but from “all of the absurdly rich people across the world”.

As a simple matter of correct use of English, giving away your own money for the benefit of mankind is philanthropy, but causing others' money to be compulsorily collected from them is not!

The point of this is that I can imagine a Philanthropy board being created on TLF, and I can imagine a board to discuss tax proposals (such as wealth tax proposals, which are what the Guardian article is mainly about) and other tax policy issues being created on TLF, and I would be mildly in favour of either or both of them as long as they were created in sensible places and given sensible names. But that implies that they are NOT the same board! In particular, the board about tax policy issues needs to be given a name like Taxes (Policy) and I'm pretty certain it needs to be in the Polite Debate & Discussion area due to its interactions with politics and the fact that it's about speculative issues that people tend to get hot under the collar about. Whereas a Philanthropy board (which might also be named Charitable Lemons or various other names) would not want to be politicised, so would want to avoid the Polite Debate & Discussion area... (I can see that it might fit somewhat imperfectly in any of the Managing Your Finances, Lemon-Aid or Interests - Culture, Leisure, Food and Nature areas - or those imperfect fits might indicate that Any Other Business is where it would really belong.)

I will note that there is a possible issue about a Taxes (Policy) board in the Polite Debate & Discussion area, namely that the boundary between it and the The Economy board isn't entirely obvious. On the other hand, it has the advantage that it may act as a lightning rod, hopefully giving off-topic-for-Taxes-(Practical) discussions like viewtopic.php?f=49&t=26684&p=364425#p364425 a more obvious place to get started and so reducing the moderation workload for Taxes (Practical).

A reminder to those readers who pay little attention to what board they're on: this thread is about creating a board on which views like Abigail Disney's can be discussed, and is NOT itself a place where those views can be discussed!

Gengulphus

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Re: New board: Philanthropy?

#401470

Postby Dod101 » April 3rd, 2021, 7:34 pm

Personally I am far removed from Abigail Disney and I am not sure what a dedicated Board would achieve except that it would probably get bogged down in politics. I am for instance very happy to give some money each year to various charities, mostly medical ones as it happens but few of us would have the concerns of Abigail Disney and I certainly do not. On the whole, I would vote against such a new Board.

Dod

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Re: New board: Philanthropy?

#401478

Postby Lootman » April 3rd, 2021, 8:02 pm

Dod101 wrote:Personally I am far removed from Abigail Disney and I am not sure what a dedicated Board would achieve except that it would probably get bogged down in politics. I am for instance very happy to give some money each year to various charities, mostly medical ones as it happens but few of us would have the concerns of Abigail Disney and I certainly do not. On the whole, I would vote against such a new Board.

I would add my vote to not have a board for "the haves vs have-nots discussions".

It would rapidly dissolve into the usual left versus right arguments with all their attendant stereotypes, biases and guilt-mongering.

As for a non-political board for discussing charitable giving, I have always taken the view that the best way to donate to causes is to do it with humility and, ideally, anonymously. I really do not want to read about how generous this Lemon or that Lemon has been to their favourite cause, as I find such bragging to be rather undignified.

Finally if a topic is needed about the tax implications of giving, then the existing Taxes board is the place to discuss Gift-Aid and other forms of tax breaks for gifts such as IHT relief.

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Re: New board: Philanthropy?

#401487

Postby GrahamPlatt » April 3rd, 2021, 8:37 pm

As I said, that article’s a long read. Worth reading to the end. Iit’s not all about Disney, though it does start & finish with her.
& BTW I shan’t sulk if there is no new board - I agree that such might be too divisive/political. It was just a thought, though there might be some merit in one of the aspects of the idea.

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Re: New board: Philanthropy?

#401506

Postby melonfool » April 3rd, 2021, 10:28 pm

Why do people feel they have to 'vote against' a board - surely if they don't want it, they just don't visit it?

There are loads of boards I don't visit.

But my view is that this isn't a topic in itself, it's just part of normal philosophical debate and there is a philosophy board.

Mel

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Re: New board: Philanthropy?

#401582

Postby dealtn » April 4th, 2021, 10:22 am

melonfool wrote:Why do people feel they have to 'vote against' a board - surely if they don't want it, they just don't visit it?

There are loads of boards I don't visit.

But my view is that this isn't a topic in itself, it's just part of normal philosophical debate and there is a philosophy board.

Mel


I agree with the sentiment, but not sure you are correct about a Philosophy Board. There is Meaning Of Life, which with a bit of rephrasing of its purpose might be suitable, but as it stands this is a Religion and Philosophy destination and its not clear how "Philanthropy" would sit well there.

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Re: New board: Philanthropy?

#401584

Postby csearle » April 4th, 2021, 10:22 am

Moderator Message:
Couple of posts deleted. The topic is the need or otherwise for a Philanthropy board not for discussion of linked articles, especially the politics thereof. - Chris

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Re: New board: Philanthropy?

#401585

Postby dealtn » April 4th, 2021, 10:31 am

Gengulphus wrote:I will note that there is a possible issue about a Taxes (Policy) board in the Polite Debate & Discussion area, namely that the boundary between it and the The Economy board isn't entirely obvious. On the other hand, it has the advantage that it may act as a lightning rod, hopefully giving off-topic-for-Taxes-(Practical) discussions like viewtopic.php?f=49&t=26684&p=364425#p364425 a more obvious place to get started and so reducing the moderation workload for Taxes (Practical).



Which would allow sensible discussion to take place about the economy, on a The Economy Board not in Polite Debate & Discussion. The Economy in itself isn't about politics, and shouldn't be hijacked by political debate. Having a "sensible" The Economy Board in say Investors' Roundtable (where Macro and Global Topics sits), and moderated appropriately so it doesn't potentially descend into politics, and away from economics, (with a Taxes (Policy) Board replacing it in Polite Debate & Discussion) has merit in my opinion.

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Re: New board: Philanthropy?

#401614

Postby Dod101 » April 4th, 2021, 12:22 pm

So comment on the Guardian article is verboten yet that was the basis for the proposed new Board. Now we should forget all about it? What on earth would be the point of a new Board on Philanthropy any more than the OP quoting the Guardian article?

I think as is already becoming apparent that it would just be yet another bone for contention (my wording is deliberate) WE have enough contentious issues anyway all of which encourage an already, unhealthy, divided society.

Dod

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Re: New board: Philanthropy?

#401617

Postby csearle » April 4th, 2021, 12:28 pm

Dod101 wrote:So comment on the Guardian article is verboten yet that was the basis for the proposed new Board.
As you very well know Dod es ist hier verboten because this is a thread about improving the Lemon Fool rather than carrying out the discussion that might possibly belong on a new board. If you wish to voice your politics (with which I tend to agree) then you know where it may politely be done. Chris

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Re: New board: Philanthropy?

#401727

Postby Gengulphus » April 4th, 2021, 9:33 pm

melonfool wrote:Why do people feel they have to 'vote against' a board - surely if they don't want it, they just don't visit it?

Well, if someone says they "would vote against" a new board, that's a statement about what they would do if we were having a vote about the board. Since we're actually engaged in a discussion about a possible new board, and it doesn't even seem clear to me whether that board is one about philanthropy or one about tax policy, those statements seem distinctly premature to me.

So what I'd suggest anyone thinking in terms of votes about new boards does is firstly wait to see what new board proposal or proposals come out of this (if any), then wait to see whether the admins and moderators post a poll about it (my guess is that they won't!), and only if and when both of those things happen decide how to vote on the specific proposal(s)!

melonfool wrote:But my view is that this isn't a topic in itself, it's just part of normal philosophical debate and there is a philosophy board.

I'd regard both philanthropy and tax policy as only rather distantly related to philosophical debate!

Lootman wrote:As for a non-political board for discussing charitable giving, I have always taken the view that the best way to donate to causes is to do it with humility and, ideally, anonymously. I really do not want to read about how generous this Lemon or that Lemon has been to their favourite cause, as I find such bragging to be rather undignified.

Finally if a topic is needed about the tax implications of giving, then the existing Taxes board is the place to discuss Gift-Aid and other forms of tax breaks for gifts such as IHT relief.

There are quite a few possible non-political discussions about charitable giving besides tax breaks for giving and bragging about how generous one has been. For example, the advantages and disadvantages of using organisations like the Charities Aid Foundation, how to go about organising various types of fundraising, or people wanting suggestions of charities dealing with specific types of cause. (Note that this is just a list of some types of topic that might be discussed on a board about charitable giving - NOT a suggestion that anyone discusses them in this thread!)

I do agree with you about bragging about how generous one has been. Also, I think one of the danger areas for discussions about charitable giving drifting into political areas is posts linking to articles on the internet about such-and-such an exceedingly wealthy person having donated £1 million to such-and-such a charity - that can easily lead to arguments between those who feel that a gift of millions by anyone is incredibly generous and those who feel that donating less than 1% of one's wealth is not generous at all, which can then rapidly turn political... Furthermore, such a political discussion about a specific person's actions obviously has a much higher-than-normal chance of ending up containing derogatory statements about that person.

That's crystallised a vague misgiving I've had about having a board called Philanthropy - it would make little sense to have such a board on which discussing a news article about a prominent philanthropist was off-topic. Charitable Giving or even Charitable Giving (Practical) would IMHO be a much better name for a non-political TLF board about charitable giving IMHO - assuming such a board is wanted. (I would personally probably read such a board and occasionally post to it if it existed, but saying that it's wanted by me would be putting it a lot too strongly.)

And if such a board is created, I think there's a decent case for it also having a board rule/guidance against discussing the amounts given by any individual, including oneself.

Gengulphus

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Re: New board: Philanthropy?

#401742

Postby Lootman » April 4th, 2021, 10:27 pm

Gengulphus wrote:
melonfool wrote:Why do people feel they have to 'vote against' a board - surely if they don't want it, they just don't visit it?

Well, if someone says they "would vote against" a new board, that's a statement about what they would do if we were having a vote about the board. Since we're actually engaged in a discussion about a possible new board, and it doesn't even seem clear to me whether that board is one about philanthropy or one about tax policy, those statements seem distinctly premature to me.

So what I'd suggest anyone thinking in terms of votes about new boards does is firstly wait to see what new board proposal or proposals come out of this (if any), then wait to see whether the admins and moderators post a poll about it (my guess is that they won't!), and only if and when both of those things happen decide how to vote on the specific proposal(s)!

Yes, it is true that there was not a formal vote or poll about this putative new board. But given that it is unusual, if not unprecedented, for there ever to be a vote or poll on a new board, then in practice this topic is the first and possibly only public discussion of the idea. So if someone wishes for an opportunity to either support the idea or else object to or disagree with the idea, then this is the time and place to do that. After all, the topic title was expressed as a question implying that answers were expected and desired. And in that context "vote against" merely means "I disagree with the proposal".

I took melonfool's point to be a more general one i.e. that nobody should object to the creation of any new board because we can always just ignore boards we don't like. That is fair enough, although I can think of a few reasons why others might want to object, such as:

1) TLF is easier to understand and navigate if there are fewer boards. As I recall, early on in the inception of this site, its sponsors stated a desire that it should have fewer boards than TMF did and, as a result, many TMF boards were merged into a single TLF board.

2) A proliferation of boards can make it harder to know which one to post a topic on. As noted some "philanthropy" topics may belong on the Taxes board, the Current Affairs board, or elsewhere. As an example some people continue to be confused over which of the two HY boards to post topics too. Such confusion may increase with more overlapping boards.

3) The potentially confrontational nature of topics likely to be discussed on a new board may lead to an increase in tensions and arguments, along with an increase in moderation that leads to frustration on the part of contributors. A charity board might not do that, but given the rather political examples chosen by the OP, that strikes me as quite likely in this case.

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Re: New board: Philanthropy?

#401752

Postby 88V8 » April 4th, 2021, 10:53 pm

It would be soooo political.

The very concept of 'poverty', a word all too often divorced from it's qualifier 'relative', is highly political.

I think that a couple of trial Topics in CAN would quickly illustrate my point, if indeed it needs illustrating.

V8

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Re: New board: Philanthropy?

#401769

Postby Dod101 » April 5th, 2021, 6:54 am

Then there is the beneficiaries of one's philanthropy. It need not be all about helping the poor (however we define them; which is, as already been suggested' a subject for debate itself). It could be about helping out your local theatre, especially after this Covid year, cats and dogs homes, medical charities or whatever. Even starting your own charity. You do not need to an Abigail Disney to do that.

Also of course some of the admin to go with that and how successful or otherwisee the Charity Commissioners (OSCR in Scotland) are at policing them. Philanthropy and its attendant topics is a big subject. I said not a good idea basically because I suspect it would get bogged down in all the attendant political issues that are not far removed from most of its topics.

This to me is a highly personal matter and better left that way. I do not want to see a new wing at my local Uni named 'The Dod School of Perversity' or something.

Dod

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Re: New board: Philanthropy?

#401783

Postby melonfool » April 5th, 2021, 9:19 am

Lootman wrote:
Gengulphus wrote:
melonfool wrote:Why do people feel they have to 'vote against' a board - surely if they don't want it, they just don't visit it?

Well, if someone says they "would vote against" a new board, that's a statement about what they would do if we were having a vote about the board. Since we're actually engaged in a discussion about a possible new board, and it doesn't even seem clear to me whether that board is one about philanthropy or one about tax policy, those statements seem distinctly premature to me.

So what I'd suggest anyone thinking in terms of votes about new boards does is firstly wait to see what new board proposal or proposals come out of this (if any), then wait to see whether the admins and moderators post a poll about it (my guess is that they won't!), and only if and when both of those things happen decide how to vote on the specific proposal(s)!

Yes, it is true that there was not a formal vote or poll about this putative new board. But given that it is unusual, if not unprecedented, for there ever to be a vote or poll on a new board, then in practice this topic is the first and possibly only public discussion of the idea. So if someone wishes for an opportunity to either support the idea or else object to or disagree with the idea, then this is the time and place to do that. After all, the topic title was expressed as a question implying that answers were expected and desired. And in that context "vote against" merely means "I disagree with the proposal".

I took melonfool's point to be a more general one i.e. that nobody should object to the creation of any new board because we can always just ignore boards we don't like. That is fair enough, although I can think of a few reasons why others might want to object, such as:

1) TLF is easier to understand and navigate if there are fewer boards. As I recall, early on in the inception of this site, its sponsors stated a desire that it should have fewer boards than TMF did and, as a result, many TMF boards were merged into a single TLF board.

2) A proliferation of boards can make it harder to know which one to post a topic on. As noted some "philanthropy" topics may belong on the Taxes board, the Current Affairs board, or elsewhere. As an example some people continue to be confused over which of the two HY boards to post topics too. Such confusion may increase with more overlapping boards.

3) The potentially confrontational nature of topics likely to be discussed on a new board may lead to an increase in tensions and arguments, along with an increase in moderation that leads to frustration on the part of contributors. A charity board might not do that, but given the rather political examples chosen by the OP, that strikes me as quite likely in this case.


Those weren't the reasons you gave for your "vote against" it though.

Mel

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Re: New board: Philanthropy?

#401890

Postby Lootman » April 5th, 2021, 4:38 pm

melonfool wrote:
Lootman wrote:
Gengulphus wrote:Well, if someone says they "would vote against" a new board, that's a statement about what they would do if we were having a vote about the board. Since we're actually engaged in a discussion about a possible new board, and it doesn't even seem clear to me whether that board is one about philanthropy or one about tax policy, those statements seem distinctly premature to me.

So what I'd suggest anyone thinking in terms of votes about new boards does is firstly wait to see what new board proposal or proposals come out of this (if any), then wait to see whether the admins and moderators post a poll about it (my guess is that they won't!), and only if and when both of those things happen decide how to vote on the specific proposal(s)!

Yes, it is true that there was not a formal vote or poll about this putative new board. But given that it is unusual, if not unprecedented, for there ever to be a vote or poll on a new board, then in practice this topic is the first and possibly only public discussion of the idea. So if someone wishes for an opportunity to either support the idea or else object to or disagree with the idea, then this is the time and place to do that. After all, the topic title was expressed as a question implying that answers were expected and desired. And in that context "vote against" merely means "I disagree with the proposal".

I took melonfool's point to be a more general one i.e. that nobody should object to the creation of any new board because we can always just ignore boards we don't like. That is fair enough, although I can think of a few reasons why others might want to object, such as:

1) TLF is easier to understand and navigate if there are fewer boards. As I recall, early on in the inception of this site, its sponsors stated a desire that it should have fewer boards than TMF did and, as a result, many TMF boards were merged into a single TLF board.

2) A proliferation of boards can make it harder to know which one to post a topic on. As noted some "philanthropy" topics may belong on the Taxes board, the Current Affairs board, or elsewhere. As an example some people continue to be confused over which of the two HY boards to post topics too. Such confusion may increase with more overlapping boards.

3) The potentially confrontational nature of topics likely to be discussed on a new board may lead to an increase in tensions and arguments, along with an increase in moderation that leads to frustration on the part of contributors. A charity board might not do that, but given the rather political examples chosen by the OP, that strikes me as quite likely in this case.

Those weren't the reasons you gave for your "vote against" it though.

Correct, otherwise I would have just been repeating myself!

The earlier reasons were based on my thoughts about this particular idea for a new board.

The later reasons were based on my assessment of general reasons why someone might object to any new board.

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Re: New board: Philanthropy?

#401914

Postby csearle » April 5th, 2021, 7:22 pm

Maybe we should have a poll?

Arguments have been made for why the subject of Philanthropy is broad enough to warrant a board. Arguments have been made for why such a board might be superfluous or unwise.

Although The Lemon Fool is not a democracy, maybe a poll of the users would be indicative? After all stooz and Clariman clearly shepherd the site but they are not my idea of dictators.

Chris


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