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"Source of wealth information" requested

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bobsmydog
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Re: "Source of wealth information" requested

#220383

Postby bobsmydog » May 9th, 2019, 11:34 am

Barclays. Hmm.

In the late 1990's I had to go into a branch with documents to prove who I am. I had banked with Barclays (personal and business accounts) since 1967!

Then a few years ago I was named executor in my mother's will. She held a Barclays Sterling Bond fund in Jersey. I had to show where my parents' wealth had come from.

She was 90 when she died. They had both worked in employment and self employment, inherited, saved, invested, and bought and sold properties during their lifetimes.

Did they mean the original source of that one particular investment? Spare cash is rolled over during a lifetime into various assets and would never have had a sticker attached to it to trace it's source, but hey ho!

GoSeigen
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Re: "Source of wealth information" requested

#220429

Postby GoSeigen » May 9th, 2019, 1:40 pm

bobsmydog wrote:Barclays. Hmm.

In the late 1990's I had to go into a branch with documents to prove who I am. I had banked with Barclays (personal and business accounts) since 1967!

Then a few years ago I was named executor in my mother's will. She held a Barclays Sterling Bond fund in Jersey. I had to show where my parents' wealth had come from.

She was 90 when she died. They had both worked in employment and self employment, inherited, saved, invested, and bought and sold properties during their lifetimes.

Did they mean the original source of that one particular investment? Spare cash is rolled over during a lifetime into various assets and would never have had a sticker attached to it to trace it's source, but hey ho!


When asked this sort of question I simply list everything that might conceivably have contributed to my wealth without further comment: wages, investment returns, property disposals, insurance claims, compensation, prizes, gifts, sale of chattels, inheritance, betting wins, tax refunds etc.

I normally do not include theft, fraud or drug dealing in this list.


No-one has ever queried it.

GS

BrummieDave
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Re: "Source of wealth information" requested

#220436

Postby BrummieDave » May 9th, 2019, 2:09 pm

I posted yesterday on the "Taxes, practical" board something which is probably equally relevant here, and is something that some/many may not realise until pointed out. HMRC, the primary government department for collecting any data about income let alone wealth, currently only collects information that's directly relevant to income tax collection. This means that they only collect info about an individuals, and only then their taxable income. This ignores all non-taxable sources of income such as non-domiciled residents, all capital gains whether realised or not, and tax-exempt returns on savings and investments (ISAs, dividends and interest below tax allowance levels) etc. When extended to wealth, this also ignores tax exempt inheritance such as inherited pension pots, and also limits data to an individual, not a household (whilst your tax return asks if you are married, it doesn't ask "who to?" simply asking for your spouse's NI Number would solve this).

As it's this HMRC data that amongst other things informs social policy, it's somewhat of an omission. A seminar I attended recently explored one aspect of this field and may be of interest: https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/research/c ... lions.aspx

PeterGray
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Re: "Source of wealth information" requested

#220448

Postby PeterGray » May 9th, 2019, 2:38 pm

I think I just put "savings and investment returns" down when I had to fill one. I can't see anyone coming back for more.

IR35x
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Re: "Source of wealth information" requested

#220499

Postby IR35x » May 9th, 2019, 5:38 pm

I spoke to Barclays Smart Investor customer services and the guy I spoke to said he thought I needed printouts of all of my contract notes for the last 20 years. I hope he didn't know what he was talking about. I did have a look at my Barclays account to see if I could download the history of transactions but the history only goes back 7 years and only downloads into a spreadsheet - not exactly "proof".

stevensfo
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Re: "Source of wealth information" requested

#220511

Postby stevensfo » May 9th, 2019, 6:30 pm

IR35x wrote:I spoke to Barclays Smart Investor customer services and the guy I spoke to said he thought I needed printouts of all of my contract notes for the last 20 years. I hope he didn't know what he was talking about. I did have a look at my Barclays account to see if I could download the history of transactions but the history only goes back 7 years and only downloads into a spreadsheet - not exactly "proof".


There has to be a Monty Python sketch there somewhere. Where's John Cleese when you need him? :-)

Steve

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Re: "Source of wealth information" requested

#220544

Postby GPhelan » May 9th, 2019, 9:17 pm

Dunno about John Cleese, but Terry Jones and Rob Buckman were in a video for Pensions/Investment manager Cardano.
It uses all the expected Monty Python visual antics and ridicules a suited salesman from Cardano trying to give a standard investment talk.
My copy (in 2 parts) was called "Cardano Risky Business and the Business of Risk".
The full thing is about 25 minutes, but sadly the only link I can now find on Youtube leads to a page saying it has be removed following a copyright request. There is the merest 90 second fragment, giving a brief flavour of what you are missing on Vimeo: https://vimeo.com/29417153

Hariseldon58
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Re: "Source of wealth information" requested

#221034

Postby Hariseldon58 » May 12th, 2019, 10:03 am

An interesting thread, many of my earlier electronic records were Quicken and Money, following a file corruption issue , this data would now be unobtainable.

I have always kept a set of ledgers ( presently book 4 ) alongside these electronic records, in theory one could unravel my whole investment history and I would be interested in the conclusions.... but even for just one individual and a spouse thus would be immensely complex ! Good luck to them...

As an aside I am astonished that no one in government has ever thought about an asset census... Declare what you own .....directly or beneficially....HMRC would have a field day, let’s hope John McDonnell is not reading this, not something I would fear in the slightest but I imagine there anew a few people would be exposed.

Lootman
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Re: "Source of wealth information" requested

#221041

Postby Lootman » May 12th, 2019, 11:18 am

Hariseldon58 wrote:I am astonished that no one in government has ever thought about an asset census... Declare what you own .....directly or beneficially....HMRC would have a field day, let’s hope John McDonnell is not reading this, not something I would fear in the slightest but I imagine there anew a few people would be exposed.

Agreed, it is a rare blessing that the government has never decided that it has a business in knowing the net worth of its residents. But at present that only happens upon death, for IHT determination purposes.

So until you die, your net worth is a secret (unless you claim means-tested welfare benefits, which I assume nobody here does). The government can certainly estimate some of it, based on assets they do know about, like property ownership, pensions and ISAs. But it is still possible to legally maintain undisclosed assets, particularly those that create no income, rents or gains which are declarable.

Given how much the Labour party tediously drones on about "inequality" (as if success is somehow a bad thing) then it's a decent bet that it would invoke some kind of "crisis" as a rationalisation for an audit of personal wealth.

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Re: "Source of wealth information" requested

#221045

Postby scrumpyjack » May 12th, 2019, 12:15 pm

Many years ago one did have to include share acquisitions in the tax return, not just disposals, but the revenue eventually removed that requirement.

Now with their Connect snooper computer systems they probably have access to all UK brokers financial records anyway (and banks?)

Lootman
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Re: "Source of wealth information" requested

#221050

Postby Lootman » May 12th, 2019, 12:32 pm

scrumpyjack wrote:Many years ago one did have to include share acquisitions in the tax return, not just disposals, but the revenue eventually removed that requirement.

I imagine that was back when gains were indexed for inflation and before self-assessment. So acquisition data would be needed for HMRC to assess your CGT.

These days acquisition data is not required at all; only that you report the cost basis of your disposals.

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Re: "Source of wealth information" requested

#221054

Postby scrumpyjack » May 12th, 2019, 12:44 pm

The requirement to give details of share purchases predated the introduction of indexation of gains as I recall. Anyway the revenue never worked out your indexation. One had to submit a computation showing original cost (or March 82 value) and the calculation of the indexation adjustment.

I guess someone at HMRC eventually realised they were asking for data that they never actually used.

Alaric
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Re: "Source of wealth information" requested

#221059

Postby Alaric » May 12th, 2019, 1:04 pm

scrumpyjack wrote:I guess someone at HMRC eventually realised they were asking for data that they never actually used.


I don't know when they phased this out, but if they asked for share purchase data during the mass privatisation era, they would be demanding detail on a large number of small purchases from Sid and his fellow investors.

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Re: "Source of wealth information" requested

#221060

Postby Lootman » May 12th, 2019, 1:12 pm

scrumpyjack wrote:The requirement to give details of share purchases predated the introduction of indexation of gains as I recall.

OK, then that must have been a very long time ago. My first share purchase was 1982 and I was never aware of that requirement. And subsequent disposals never attracted any scrutiny based on the fact that the original acquisition had not been reported.

I imagine that indexation started with the high inflation of the 1970s. In fact I believe that CGT itself only goes back to the 1960s.

scrumpyjack
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Re: "Source of wealth information" requested

#221066

Postby scrumpyjack » May 12th, 2019, 1:45 pm

Yes indexation relief was introduced in 1982 (hence also the rebasing then of asset values to their March 1982 market values) by Geoffrey Howe as I recall (who was famously insulted by Denis Healey - he said being attacked by Howe was like being savaged by a dead sheep!).

Various inflation reliefs (eg stock relief) had been brought in earlier for companies as they would otherwise have been ruined by being taxed on non existent accounting profits resulting from the massive inflation of the seventies.

CGT itself was brought in in the mid 1960's

tjh290633
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Re: "Source of wealth information" requested

#221091

Postby tjh290633 » May 12th, 2019, 4:29 pm

scrumpyjack wrote:The requirement to give details of share purchases predated the introduction of indexation of gains as I recall. Anyway the revenue never worked out your indexation. One had to submit a computation showing original cost (or March 82 value) and the calculation of the indexation adjustment.

I guess someone at HMRC eventually realised they were asking for data that they never actually used.

My first share purchase was in the early 1970s, and I am sure that I never provided any such information to the taxman. In fact I started buying unit trusts in 1958, and presumably they would have been included.

Do you have any information about when this requirement arose? Also about when it ceased?

TJH

scrumpyjack
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Re: "Source of wealth information" requested

#221101

Postby scrumpyjack » May 12th, 2019, 5:34 pm

I really can't remember but it certainly was a requirement in the late '60s and early seventies. Similarly I can't remember when they ceased havnig a box on the income tax form for it. My first share purchases were in the late '60s.

My guess would be they started asking when CGT was introduced and then eventually realised it was a bit of a waste of time!

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Re: "Source of wealth information" requested

#221272

Postby PinkDalek » May 13th, 2019, 12:14 pm

tjh290633 wrote:Do you have any information about when this requirement arose? Also about when it ceased?


See below re ceased but I've found a 1966 Income Tax Repayment claim which asks for Chargeable Assets acquired. So it looks like from the the start of CGT on 6 April 1965 (don't know about before when, from memory, there was a short term gains tax).

scrumpyjack wrote:I really can't remember but it certainly was a requirement in the late '60s and early seventies. Similarly I can't remember when they ceased havnig a box on the income tax form for it. ...


My Inland Revenue Tax Return 1986-87 - 11P (1986) on page 6 included a sub-section for the following:

Capital Gains: 6 April 1985 to 5 April 1986

Chargeable assets acquired

Date of acquisition
Description

Cost or acquisition value

Self / Wife


The following year only had Chargeable assets disposed of.

Perhaps others are misremembering/didn't need to complete returns/had no items to include.

yyuryyub
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Re: "Source of wealth information" requested

#222280

Postby yyuryyub » May 17th, 2019, 8:21 am

After all the fuss, my wife and I have both received letters from Barclays Smart Investor saying "You can ignore the recent letter we sent you. .... The letter was sent in error etc ... you don't have to do anything "

So that's a relief. Personally, I do intend to ensure that this kind of information is retained indefinately (by intention rather than by chance).

Alaric
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Re: "Source of wealth information" requested

#222311

Postby Alaric » May 17th, 2019, 9:37 am

yyuryyub wrote:After all the fuss, my wife and I have both received letters from Barclays Smart Investor saying "You can ignore the recent letter we sent you. .... The letter was sent in error etc ... you don't have to do anything "


So they've backed down. You wonder why they went to the trouble of drafting a letter, getting it mail merged etc, without someone in the organisation pointing out that it wasn't necessary.


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