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No joint accounts

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TahiPanasDua
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No joint accounts

#134392

Postby TahiPanasDua » April 24th, 2018, 12:03 pm

We currently have 3 joint accounts with Barclays, HSBC and A N Other Overseas and hope to give the latter the bullet and transfer our inactive ETF holdings to a new account.

An obvious choice was the Iweb/Halifax/Lloyds stable but I was surprised to find that they stopped accepting new joint applicants some time ago. Can anyone recommend a broker for joint accounts? I prefer big solid? providers if possible.

Many thanks!

TP2

GeoffF100
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Re: No joint accounts

#134436

Postby GeoffF100 » April 24th, 2018, 1:48 pm

Joint accounts appear to be available with the Halifax branded accounts:

https://static.halifax.co.uk/assets/pdf ... dConds.pdf

doug2500
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Re: No joint accounts

#134441

Postby doug2500 » April 24th, 2018, 2:11 pm

Charles Stanley Direct do them.

Lootman
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Re: No joint accounts

#134454

Postby Lootman » April 24th, 2018, 2:35 pm

TahiPanasDua wrote:An obvious choice was the Iweb/Halifax/Lloyds stable but I was surprised to find that they stopped accepting new joint applicants some time ago.

I don't see how they can. It's a legal from of ownership. What reason are they claiming?

I can just about understand limiting joint accounts to no more than two individuals. I think my bank limits them to four.

PeterGray
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Re: No joint accounts

#134470

Postby PeterGray » April 24th, 2018, 3:59 pm

I don't think there's any reason why a broker has to offer joint accounts, just because it's not illegal too. It's their choice.

Presumably they think they are too expensive/complex/risky to administer (take your pick) and have decided not to.

Peter

TahiPanasDua
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Re: No joint accounts

#134498

Postby TahiPanasDua » April 24th, 2018, 5:16 pm

GeoffF100 wrote:Joint accounts appear to be available with the Halifax branded accounts:

https://static.halifax.co.uk/assets/pdf ... dConds.pdf


Thanks Geoff. The Ts & Cs certainly seem to allow joint accounts but I spoke directly to each of Iweb, Halifax and Lloyds and all 3 confidently and unhesitatingly said they no longer allow this facility. I asked 2 of them why this was the case and they didn't seem to know. One guy said all 3 do this but quite reasonably pointed out that he could only speak for his own outfit.

TP2.

PinkDalek
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Re: No joint accounts

#134509

Postby PinkDalek » April 24th, 2018, 6:06 pm

TahiPanasDua wrote:
GeoffF100 wrote:Joint accounts appear to be available with the Halifax branded accounts:

https://static.halifax.co.uk/assets/pdf ... dConds.pdf


Thanks Geoff. The Ts & Cs certainly seem to allow joint accounts but I spoke directly to each of Iweb, Halifax and Lloyds and all 3 confidently and unhesitatingly said they no longer allow this facility. I asked 2 of them why this was the case and they didn't seem to know. One guy said all 3 do this but quite reasonably pointed out that he could only speak for his own outfit.

TP2.


That pdf includes:

5. Opening an account

Eligibility

5.1 To be eligible for an account you must be:

(a) an individual; ...


The other content about joint accounts could well be referring to existing joint accounts.

I've also seen one side of a tweet from IWeb which seems to confirm what you've been told:

... when we stopped offering the service, we allowed those already holding a joint account to maintain this ...

From https://twitter.com/IWebTrading/status/ ... 7430608900

PinkDalek
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Re: No joint accounts

#134512

Postby PinkDalek » April 24th, 2018, 6:22 pm

TahiPanasDua wrote: ... Can anyone recommend a broker for joint accounts? I prefer big solid? providers if possible. ...


Hargreaves Lansdown Fund and Share Account - first item on their FAQs:

http://www.hl.co.uk/investment-services ... count/faqs

Lootman
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Re: No joint accounts

#134524

Postby Lootman » April 24th, 2018, 7:13 pm

PinkDalek wrote:... when we stopped offering the service, we allowed those already holding a joint account to maintain this ...

From https://twitter.com/IWebTrading/status/ ... 7430608900

I guess my retort to that is that it is not really a service at all. It is a form of ownership.

If my wife and I buy a house, we certainly do not expect to be told that we cannot own it as joint tenants. In fact that is the default for married couples who buy assets.

It matters because a joint tenancy is, amongst other things, a very good tool for estate planning. If a married couple jointly owns everything then there isn't normally any need for probate upon the first death. To achieve the same thing with individual accounts or tenancy-in common ownership would probably require the use of trusts, or some kind of programme of gifts.

I'm actually quite stunned that any financial institution would not agree to a very popular and useful form of ownership. What possible problem do they think they solved?

bobsmydog
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Re: No joint accounts

#134752

Postby bobsmydog » April 25th, 2018, 5:48 pm

I have a joint account with Share Centre.
Selftrade refused me one, which is a shame, as they offer a wider range of investments

BobbyD
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Re: No joint accounts

#134834

Postby BobbyD » April 26th, 2018, 7:39 am

Lootman wrote:I guess my retort to that is that it is not really a service at all. It is a form of ownership.

If my wife and I buy a house, we certainly do not expect to be told that we cannot own it as joint tenants. In fact that is the default for married couples who buy assets.


Nobody is saying that they can't jointly own the contents of the existing account, merely that they are not interested in acting as administrators of an account in which such joint holdings are held.

Lootman
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Re: No joint accounts

#135120

Postby Lootman » April 27th, 2018, 1:07 pm

BobbyD wrote:
Lootman wrote:I guess my retort to that is that it is not really a service at all. It is a form of ownership.

If my wife and I buy a house, we certainly do not expect to be told that we cannot own it as joint tenants. In fact that is the default for married couples who buy assets.

Nobody is saying that they can't jointly own the contents of the existing account, merely that they are not interested in acting as administrators of an account in which such joint holdings are held.

Without giving any plausible reason to deny a perfectly reasonable form of ownership.

robbelg
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Re: No joint accounts

#135163

Postby robbelg » April 27th, 2018, 3:46 pm

Interactive Investor, formerly TDDirect have a form of joint account.

As deputy for my mothers finances I have access to and control of her accounts - when I log on there is an option to say whether its me or my mother.

However I think they legally have to provide this facility. I don't know whether or not they offer proper joint accounts but they clearly have the capability.


Rob

BobbyD
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Re: No joint accounts

#135215

Postby BobbyD » April 27th, 2018, 6:28 pm

Lootman wrote:
BobbyD wrote:
Lootman wrote:I guess my retort to that is that it is not really a service at all. It is a form of ownership.

If my wife and I buy a house, we certainly do not expect to be told that we cannot own it as joint tenants. In fact that is the default for married couples who buy assets.

Nobody is saying that they can't jointly own the contents of the existing account, merely that they are not interested in acting as administrators of an account in which such joint holdings are held.

Without giving any plausible reason to deny a perfectly reasonable form of ownership.


They don't want to is a perfectly sufficient reason. They are offering a service, if it doesn't suit your needs find somebody whose service does meet your needs.

If you are purchasing a house you are buying a thing, the thing in this case has already been bought. Assuming your hypothetical house floats what is being sought is a mooring for your houseboat, nobody is preventing you buying the boat, but neither are they compelling he owner of a private mooring who doesn't like houseboats to rent you his space.

Lootman
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Re: No joint accounts

#135268

Postby Lootman » April 28th, 2018, 3:22 am

BobbyD wrote: They are offering a service, if it doesn't suit your needs find somebody whose service does meet your needs.

Again, it is not a service. It is a form of ownership.

What you are really arguing for is that financial institutions can effectively undermine the law of the land by collectively refusing a perfectly legal form of ownership. If every bank and broker disallowed that then the joint ownership of cash and securities would effectively have been banned without any vote or change in the law.

The fact that neither you, them nor anyone else can come up with a single valid reason for this arbitrary ban is significant.

Sure, if one bank goes rogue it doesn't matter. But what if they all do?

BobbyD
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Re: No joint accounts

#135407

Postby BobbyD » April 28th, 2018, 10:29 pm

Lootman wrote:
BobbyD wrote: They are offering a service, if it doesn't suit your needs find somebody whose service does meet your needs.

Again, it is not a service. It is a form of ownership.

What you are really arguing for is that financial institutions can effectively undermine the law of the land by collectively refusing a perfectly legal form of ownership. If every bank and broker disallowed that then the joint ownership of cash and securities would effectively have been banned without any vote or change in the law.

The fact that neither you, them nor anyone else can come up with a single valid reason for this arbitrary ban is significant.

Sure, if one bank goes rogue it doesn't matter. But what if they all do?


No it isn't, no I'm not and no it isn't.

Joint ownership is a form of ownership, they aren't telling you can't jointly own anything they are telling you that they have no interest in being the business which administers your joint ownership.

Your argument makes no more sense than claiming that an estate agent which refuses to deal with freehold flats is illegally trying to circumvent your right to own a freehold flat, or the pet shop which won't sell rabbits is illegally circumventing your right to own a rabbit, which is to say none sense.

Lootman
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Re: No joint accounts

#135452

Postby Lootman » April 29th, 2018, 9:28 am

BobbyD wrote:Your argument makes no more sense than claiming that an estate agent which refuses to deal with freehold flats is illegally trying to circumvent your right to own a freehold flat, or the pet shop which won't sell rabbits is illegally circumventing your right to own a rabbit, which is to say none sense.

That shows you have utterly missed my point.

If a bank says it no longer wants to offer mortgages then that is fine. They stop offering them and maybe sell the ones they have. No problem.

But if a husband and wife wish to jointly own an asset (house, account, etc.) then that is a fundamental form of ownership supported by law. It may not be a human right but it is certainly a public policy imperative.

It would appear that there is no law that requires institutions to honour joint tenancies and it seems that the odd institution is exploiting that loophole for indeterminate reasons (that I note you cannot explain). Now, if it is just the odd excepetion then maybe it doesn't matter. That institution will lose business and credibility but that is their choice. The market will punish them, and rightly so.

But if there is any evidence that institutions are colluding and conspiring to invalidate a valid form of ownership, then regulation may be needed. And I say that as an unapologetic libertarian who generally opposes more regulation. But here personal freedoms, liberties and choice is at stake, and for no good reason


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