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Can anyone IT minded make sense of this?

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BobGe
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Can anyone IT minded make sense of this?

#150366

Postby BobGe » July 6th, 2018, 3:51 am

"Thank you for contacting us.
We are sorry to hear that you are experiencing ‘time out’ issues.
Our IT department have suggested updating the time zone on your PC to (UTC+00:00) Dublin, Edinburgh, Lisbon, London and not GMT and this should resolve the issue."

Alaric
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Re: Can anyone IT minded make sense of this?

#150375

Postby Alaric » July 6th, 2018, 7:54 am

BobGe wrote:We are sorry to hear that you are experiencing ‘time out’ issues.


"Time out" usually means that you are being disconnected from the website. Many financial websites will do this if you stay logged in but without doing anything.

taylor20
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Re: Can anyone IT minded make sense of this?

#150387

Postby taylor20 » July 6th, 2018, 8:54 am

BobGe wrote:"...time zone on your PC to (UTC+00:00) Dublin, Edinburgh, Lisbon, London and not GMT and this should resolve the issue."


Bit confusing terminology, I think they are suggesting that you disable 'day light saving' i.e. do not observe British Summer Time.

My PC does not have an option for GMT. It is configured for '(UTC+00:00) Dublin, Edinburgh, Lisbon, London' with 'Automatically adjust clock for Daylight Saving Time' enabled.

It does have a plain "(UTC) Coordinated Universal Time", which does not have a 'Daylight saving' option, which should be the same as the turning off Daylight Saving option?

If you do try this and it does stop the connection problems, I would let them know, so they can then fix the rubbish IT, but would not accept it as a long term solution!

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Re: Can anyone IT minded make sense of this?

#150400

Postby GeoffF100 » July 6th, 2018, 9:50 am

taylor20 wrote:
BobGe wrote:"...time zone on your PC to (UTC+00:00) Dublin, Edinburgh, Lisbon, London and not GMT and this should resolve the issue."


Bit confusing terminology, I think they are suggesting that you disable 'day light saving' i.e. do not observe British Summer Time.

No they are saying do not use GMT (which does not use day light saving). Day light saving is the alternative, so they are saying DO use daylight saving.

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Re: Can anyone IT minded make sense of this?

#150427

Postby Alaric » July 6th, 2018, 11:10 am

GeoffF100 wrote:No they are saying do not use GMT (which does not use day light saving). Day light saving is the alternative, so they are saying DO use daylight saving.


What they seem to be suggesting is that the "time out" ie disconnection issue is connected with the use of a non-standard (for the UK) time setting on the computer.

Computers running Windows have had automatic summer time adjustments probably since Windows first got going with Windows 3 back in 1990. A website designer would have to be aware of this, although quite why a website would be upset by a non-standard setting is somewhat strange. Perhaps naming the website with the "time out" issue would help.

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Re: Can anyone IT minded make sense of this?

#150432

Postby UncleEbenezer » July 6th, 2018, 11:28 am

Alaric wrote:
GeoffF100 wrote:No they are saying do not use GMT (which does not use day light saving). Day light saving is the alternative, so they are saying DO use daylight saving.


What they seem to be suggesting is that the "time out" ie disconnection issue is connected with the use of a non-standard (for the UK) time setting on the computer.

Computers running Windows have had automatic summer time adjustments probably since Windows first got going with Windows 3 back in 1990. A website designer would have to be aware of this, although quite why a website would be upset by a non-standard setting is somewhat strange. Perhaps naming the website with the "time out" issue would help.

I expect they've fixed it by now, but Windows used to get both timezones and daylight saving hopelessly wrong. They didn't use a PC's system clock, but implemented everything themselves on some kind of assumption that the system clock would go its own way and their system would have an offset from that. Only of course the reality was a broken mix of system clock and MS nonsense.

From memory, Windows 95 was the first to auto-adjust. It got it wrong, leaving my system clock one hour out and my displayed clock two hours out. Or maybe it was vice versa. After that I took some trouble to figure out how to disable the nonsense completely.

Re: the OP - insufficient context (what question was being answered)? Very likely some idiocy on your broker's platform: for example, relying on something that is incompatible with sensible security/privacy settings in your browser. Or even with some protection against malware websites provided by your ISP (which could itself be broken).

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Re: Can anyone IT minded make sense of this?

#150443

Postby londoninvestor » July 6th, 2018, 11:51 am

UncleEbenezer wrote:Very likely some idiocy on your broker's platform: for example, relying on something that is incompatible with sensible security/privacy settings in your browser.


Wild guess - it's comparing a timestamp from the server with one from your PC, and not taking into account they might come from different timezones.

This is silly, but in my experience of seeing these kind of bugs, pretty plausible.

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Re: Can anyone IT minded make sense of this?

#150457

Postby Alaric » July 6th, 2018, 12:43 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:From memory, Windows 95 was the first to auto-adjust.


Actually that makes sense, because DOS still owned the computer in the Windows 3.x era.

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Re: Can anyone IT minded make sense of this?

#150487

Postby XFool » July 6th, 2018, 1:43 pm

GeoffF100 wrote:
taylor20 wrote:
BobGe wrote:"...time zone on your PC to (UTC+00:00) Dublin, Edinburgh, Lisbon, London and not GMT and this should resolve the issue."

Bit confusing terminology, I think they are suggesting that you disable 'day light saving' i.e. do not observe British Summer Time.

No they are saying do not use GMT (which does not use day light saving). Day light saving is the alternative, so they are saying DO use daylight saving.

Really confusing, since (UTC +00:00) is, as far as I understand things, currently the same time as GMT! Surely British Summer Time would be (UTC +01:00)?

What I assume they mean is "use UTC with Daylight Saving Time" (i.e. currently BST)

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Re: Can anyone IT minded make sense of this?

#150497

Postby Alaric » July 6th, 2018, 1:59 pm

XFool wrote:What I assume they mean is "use UTC with Daylight Saving Time" (i.e. currently BST)


I checked what Windows 7 was displaying.

(UTC+00:00) Dublin, Edinburgh, Lisbon, London


Also there's a tick box to adjust for "Daylight Saving Time"

Time zones are expressed as UTC+.

The other +00:00 are for Casablanca and for Monrovia and Reykjavik

I'm not sure why a UK based PC would be set to anything other than "Dublin, Edinburgh, Lisbon, London", but perhaps the Daylight Saving tick box had been unticked.

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Re: Can anyone IT minded make sense of this?

#150522

Postby XFool » July 6th, 2018, 2:23 pm

Alaric wrote:
XFool wrote:What I assume they mean is "use UTC with Daylight Saving Time" (i.e. currently BST)

I checked what Windows 7 was displaying.

(UTC+00:00) Dublin, Edinburgh, Lisbon, London

Also there's a tick box to adjust for "Daylight Saving Time"
Time zones are expressed as UTC+.

Surely they are also (UTC-) as (UTC +00:00) is effectively GMT and you can be behind GMT on the same day - West of Greenwich?
Time zones in the US and elsewhere are (UTC -xx:00). e.g. Samoa Standard Time is (UTC-11:00).

Alaric wrote:I'm not sure why a UK based PC would be set to anything other than "Dublin, Edinburgh, Lisbon, London", but perhaps the Daylight Saving tick box had been unticked.

I wonder if the original problem isn't with the PC time itself but, as per their suggested solution, the Time Zone. Perhaps GMT is now deprecated and their software doesn't recognise it as a valid time zone?

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Re: Can anyone IT minded make sense of this?

#150546

Postby gbjbaanb » July 6th, 2018, 3:14 pm

londoninvestor wrote:
UncleEbenezer wrote:Very likely some idiocy on your broker's platform: for example, relying on something that is incompatible with sensible security/privacy settings in your browser.


Wild guess - it's comparing a timestamp from the server with one from your PC, and not taking into account they might come from different timezones.

This is silly, but in my experience of seeing these kind of bugs, pretty plausible.


Yup, this. They'll be storing the current time (as the server knows it) in a cookie when you login, and comparing it on the client (or vice versa) when you make operations, and it'll be thinking that you're an hour out.

so you log in at 1pm, send the request to the server that looks at the provided time, and the server will think you logged in an hour ago, and so will time you out (or the other way round). Either way, its very poor time handling that should store all times in UTC as they're only used for differences, or preferably - use the time on the server only, but I imagine they're trying to add some security to prevent an attacker saving web requests and replying them at a later time (ie after they've cracked the encryption and changed the payload).

BobGe
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Re: Can anyone IT minded make sense of this?

#150821

Postby BobGe » July 8th, 2018, 4:23 am

Glad you are all having fun with this! ;) Let me throw this into the ring:

"UTC is not a time zone, but a time standard that is the basis for civil time and time zones worldwide. This means that no country or territory officially uses UTC as a local time."
"The local time within a time zone is defined by its offset (difference) from Coordinated Universal Time (UTC), the world's time standard."
"Neither UTC nor GMT ever change for Daylight Saving Time (DST)."

https://www.timeanddate.com/time/gmt-utc-time.html


"British Summer Time is 1 hour ahead of Universal Time Coordinated
So 3:00 AM in BST is 2:00 AM in UTC
3:00 AM British Summer Time (BST). Offset UTC +1:00 hour"

https://savvytime.com/converter/bst-to-utc


Alaric wrote:Perhaps naming the website with the "time out" issue would help.

Thought it better to leave it out (for now) to avoid bias - but UK based, as am I.


gbjbaanb wrote:Yup, this. They'll be storing the current time (as the server knows it) in a cookie when you login, and comparing it on the client (or vice versa) when you make operations, and it'll be thinking that you're an hour out.

I get the point, but really? (I.E. would mean their server time isn't set current, so they suggesting users to do likewise?)

londoninvestor
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Re: Can anyone IT minded make sense of this?

#150836

Postby londoninvestor » July 8th, 2018, 8:50 am

BobGe wrote:
gbjbaanb wrote:Yup, this. They'll be storing the current time (as the server knows it) in a cookie when you login, and comparing it on the client (or vice versa) when you make operations, and it'll be thinking that you're an hour out.

I get the point, but really? (I.E. would mean their server time isn't set current, so they suggesting users to do likewise?)


No, it's probably a programming oversight like this:

Let's say it's 14:31:12 BST and the server knows this. You click something and your browser submits a request from a page it knows it downloaded at 13:30:12 GMT (one minute ago).

The programmer has written code that just compares the numbers in the timestamps, and ignores the timezones. So it compares "14:31:12 BST" to "13:30:12 GMT" and it thinks you've clicked through from a session that's 61 minutes old - rather than 1 minute old which it is.

Again, speculation, but I can tell you from experience I've seen very similar bugs.

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Re: Can anyone IT minded make sense of this?

#150848

Postby XFool » July 8th, 2018, 10:07 am

BobGe wrote:Glad you are all having fun with this! ;) Let me throw this into the ring:

"UTC is not a time zone, but a time standard that is the basis for civil time and time zones worldwide. This means that no country or territory officially uses UTC as a local time."
"The local time within a time zone is defined by its offset (difference) from Coordinated Universal Time (UTC), the world's time standard."
"Neither UTC nor GMT ever change for Daylight Saving Time (DST)."

https://www.timeanddate.com/time/gmt-utc-time.html

"British Summer Time is 1 hour ahead of Universal Time Coordinated
So 3:00 AM in BST is 2:00 AM in UTC
3:00 AM British Summer Time (BST). Offset UTC +1:00 hour"

https://savvytime.com/converter/bst-to-utc

Yes. That all makes sense to me. Though much better and clearly expressed than my attempt! "What time is it?" gets more complicated the further you look into it...

BobGe wrote:
gbjbaanb wrote:Yup, this. They'll be storing the current time (as the server knows it) in a cookie when you login, and comparing it on the client (or vice versa) when you make operations, and it'll be thinking that you're an hour out.

I get the point, but really? (I.E. would mean their server time isn't set current, so they suggesting users to do likewise?)

In an attempt to find out more I Googled this (GMT and programs) a bit, including some programming sites. It seems there is quite a bit of confusion over GMT, UTC etc. Whether this matters or explains this any better, I don't know.

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Re: Can anyone IT minded make sense of this?

#151659

Postby BobGe » July 11th, 2018, 4:48 am

Going back to the advice: "Our IT department have suggested updating the time zone on your PC to (UTC+00:00) Dublin, Edinburgh, Lisbon, London and not GMT..." Can anyone find a difference between UCT+00.00 and GMT?

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Re: Can anyone IT minded make sense of this?

#151660

Postby Itsallaguess » July 11th, 2018, 4:55 am

BobGe wrote:
Going back to the advice :-

"Our IT department have suggested updating the time zone on your PC to (UTC+00:00) Dublin, Edinburgh, Lisbon, London and not GMT..."

Can anyone find a difference between UCT+00.00 and GMT?


Some info here -

Although GMT and UTC share the same current time in practice, there is a basic difference between the two:

-- GMT is a time zone officially used in some European and African countries. The time can be displayed using both the 24-hour format (0 - 24) or the 12-hour format (1 - 12 am/pm).

-- UTC is not a time zone, but a time standard that is the basis for civil time and time zones worldwide. This means that no country or territory officially uses UTC as a local time.


https://www.timeanddate.com/time/gmt-utc-time.html

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: Can anyone IT minded make sense of this?

#151759

Postby londoninvestor » July 11th, 2018, 3:29 pm

BobGe wrote:Going back to the advice: "Our IT department have suggested updating the time zone on your PC to (UTC+00:00) Dublin, Edinburgh, Lisbon, London and not GMT..." Can anyone find a difference between UCT+00.00 and GMT?


The key is in the "Dublin, Edinburgh, Lisbon, London".

So "(UTC+00:00) Dublin, Edinburgh, Lisbon, London" doesn't mean "UTC+00:00 all year round", which would indeed be for all intents and purposes identical to GMT.

It means "UTC+00:00 as the base, but modified by the daylight saving time rules of the UK, Ireland, and Portugal". That means UTC+00:00 in winter, UTC+01:00 in summer.

To be fantastically pedantic, you could argue that Dublin shouldn't really be in here. Ireland has the same time as the UK and Portugal in practice, but has a different legal definition. Instead of having a standard time of UTC+00:00 which moves forward in the summer, Ireland has a standard time of UTC+01:00 which moves backward in the winter. "Winter" here being the exact opposite of the UK and Portugal's "summer" - every EU country that applies a time adjustment does so at exactly the same time of year: forward at 02:00 UTC on the last Sunday of March, backward at 02:00 UTC on the last Sunday of October.

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Re: Can anyone IT minded make sense of this?

#151774

Postby mc2fool » July 11th, 2018, 4:24 pm

londoninvestor wrote:So "(UTC+00:00) Dublin, Edinburgh, Lisbon, London" doesn't mean "UTC+00:00 all year round", which would indeed be for all intents and purposes identical to GMT.

It means "UTC+00:00 as the base, but modified by the daylight saving time rules of the UK, Ireland, and Portugal". That means UTC+00:00 in winter, UTC+01:00 in summer.

Only if you have "Adjust for daylight saving time automatically" turned on.

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Re: Can anyone IT minded make sense of this?

#151833

Postby londoninvestor » July 11th, 2018, 6:56 pm

mc2fool wrote:Only if you have "Adjust for daylight saving time automatically" turned on.


Yes you're right. Note that if you change your setting to "(UTC+00:00) Monrovia, Reykjavik", the check box for "Adjust for daylight saving time automatically" will disappear - because Liberia and Iceland use UTC with no daylight saving.


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