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Selftrade's new website

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gnawsome
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Re: Selftrade's new website

#116649

Postby gnawsome » February 8th, 2018, 3:49 pm

I would urge anybody who is unhappy with the new site to use the secure message facility (if you can find it!). If they don't get sufficient negative feedback, then they won't change anything.[/quote]

I have given them plenty 'feed back' - they take no notice.
Every thing that I used to do in a few keystrokes now takes so many that I forget what I was trying to do

77ss
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Re: Selftrade's new website

#116704

Postby 77ss » February 8th, 2018, 6:03 pm

gnawsome wrote:I would urge anybody who is unhappy with the new site to use the secure message facility (if you can find it!). If they don't get sufficient negative feedback, then they won't change anything.


I have given them plenty 'feed back' - they take no notice.
Every thing that I used to do in a few keystrokes now takes so many that I forget what I was trying to do[/quote]

Yes. I await a response (if any) to my secure message.

In the meantime, I have become sufficiently cross to look at the management team:

CEO Thera Prins joined Equiniti Group plc at the end of 2016 to lead the Consumer Investment and International Payments division; EQ Invest. EQ Invest’s mission is to ensure the services we offer are suitable and accessible to all and we strive to make our customer support the best in the market place.

Mark Taylor - Chief Customer Officer “I make sure that everything we do from top to bottom is focused on helping you every step of the way on your investment journey.”


Matt Payne - Head of IT “I’m responsible for the ongoing development and support of our trading platform technology that provides you with a seamless online investing experience.”


Hollow laughter! Next step is to ask them to waive the transfer out fee - with the threat of referral to the FCA implicit. I've been using them them for over 15 years, and am very angry indeed.

Nested quotes are so difficult - I did try!

Urbandreamer
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Re: Selftrade's new website

#116729

Postby Urbandreamer » February 8th, 2018, 8:10 pm

77ss wrote:
Nested quotes are so difficult - I did try!


It depends. You can quote XYZ "when I asked he said 'dont quote me' ".

Or did you mean
XYZ wrote: when I asked he said
dont quote me.


The second is done using quote in square brakets to open and /quote in square brakets to close. You can nest and on opening asign it to a name by replacing quote with quote="name" as I have done.

I have in the past used the same to quote parts from different posts,
Ie
XYX wrote: said ...

but on the other hand
ABC wrote: said...


though only one will know that I am "replying".

BobGe
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Re: Selftrade's new website

#117494

Postby BobGe » February 12th, 2018, 4:54 am

Another stupidity:
If you have a window open at the log-in page, for example ready to log-in when you have finished doing something else or waiting for market movements, you can find upon entering your log-on details that it won't accept them because the page has timed out. It responds with a message that it's been idle too long and insist you refresh the page (in doing so you have to enter all your details again, needless to say).

So not only do they seem to have reduced the time limits for inactivity when logged on, but they also have a timer running on the log-in page when you are not.

gbjbaanb
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Re: Selftrade's new website

#117536

Postby gbjbaanb » February 12th, 2018, 10:21 am

BobGe wrote:Another stupidity:
If you have a window open at the log-in page, for example ready to log-in when you have finished doing something else or waiting for market movements, you can find upon entering your log-on details that it won't accept them because the page has timed out. It responds with a message that it's been idle too long and insist you refresh the page (in doing so you have to enter all your details again, needless to say).

So not only do they seem to have reduced the time limits for inactivity when logged on, but they also have a timer running on the log-in page when you are not.


No timer, it'll be a cookie set for security reasons, and it has an expiry time to prevent someone who has been recording your login attempts from (after taking the time to decrypt the https communications) replaying them to login as you several days later. So its a reasonable thing, and is something many websites use.

BobGe
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Re: Selftrade's new website

#117772

Postby BobGe » February 13th, 2018, 5:56 am

gbjbaanb wrote:No timer, it'll be a cookie set for security reasons, and it has an expiry time to prevent someone who has been recording your login attempts from (after taking the time to decrypt the https communications) replaying them to login as you several days later. So its a reasonable thing, and is something many websites use.


Thanks for the response. (A 'timer' and a 'cookie with an expiry time' seems to be much the same thing to a simple fellow like me!)
But if the someone replaying one's log-in details would be doing so via a log-in window one still had open, that would seem to suggest they would have effective control of one's PC.(?) So what's to stop them refreshing the window?

(Selftrade actually use use two log-on pages, intitial page for 1st part of log-on and then changes to a new page for the second part.)

Urbandreamer
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Re: Selftrade's new website

#117774

Postby Urbandreamer » February 13th, 2018, 6:48 am

BobGe wrote:(Selftrade actually use use two log-on pages, intitial page for 1st part of log-on and then changes to a new page for the second part.)


So, by the way, does the broker A J BELL and the bank Santander. A J BELL also logs you out if you don't keep accessing pages that are restricted to being logged in. (I suspect that so does the bank, but I've not found out).

Sorry, but I know of no online broker that will leave you logged in, good luck in your hunt (or should that be bad luck given the security implications).

I also note that the second page in all three cases asks for random digits/numbers from a string that you provided so as to prevent a bot replaying them. I advise using the mouse to pick them if possible (it is at Selftrade) as mouse movements themselves can't be usefully key-logged. Any spyware would have to keep screen logs.

That assums that the capture is done on your PC, rather than using a "man-in-the-middle" attack. Such attacks are significantly less common given encryption but I believe that the two page system is a historic method to reduce their likelyhood as each page may travel the internet a different route.

As a client I'm not going to critisise these common measures taken to prevent the theft of my money.

swill453
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Re: Selftrade's new website

#117816

Postby swill453 » February 13th, 2018, 10:00 am

Urbandreamer wrote:Sorry, but I know of no online broker that will leave you logged in, good luck in your hunt (or should that be bad luck given the security implications).

You've missed the point, that's not what BobGe's saying at all.

It's that the first login screen, before you put any details in at all, times out and throws your input away if you take too long about it.

Scott.

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Re: Selftrade's new website

#117833

Postby gbjbaanb » February 13th, 2018, 11:10 am

BobGe wrote:
gbjbaanb wrote:No timer, it'll be a cookie set for security reasons, and it has an expiry time to prevent someone who has been recording your login attempts from (after taking the time to decrypt the https communications) replaying them to login as you several days later. So its a reasonable thing, and is something many websites use.


Thanks for the response. (A 'timer' and a 'cookie with an expiry time' seems to be much the same thing to a simple fellow like me!)
But if the someone replaying one's log-in details would be doing so via a log-in window one still had open, that would seem to suggest they would have effective control of one's PC.(?) So what's to stop them refreshing the window?

(Selftrade actually use use two log-on pages, intitial page for 1st part of log-on and then changes to a new page for the second part.)


A timer is something that actively tracks your (in)activity, the cookie's expiry is more like a "use by" date. When you come to use it, the system looks and says "its got green stuff growing on it, best get a new one". And the easiest way to get a new one is to start over, computer-wise.

Imagine you're in an internet cafe and all your communication with your broker website is going over wifi. That is trivial to capture and record. Every bit and byte can be stored (I used to do this as part of my work, using a tool called wireshark). Now the wifi traffic is encrypted, so its not easy to break and look at the data, but given some time it can be done. The problem you then have is that the data can be replayed to the server - which is dumb enough not to know the difference between you generating this traffic using your browser, and a hacker simply replaying the results of what you did.

Without timestamped cookies (which are compared to data held on the server when ask for the login page) the reply would work just as well as you did it originally (though I'd imagine a hacker would change a value here and there, like a buy to a sell, and possibly even add his own commands to the traffic such as "transfer all the money to dodgy bank ltd").

Your browser is just a tool, like a fax machine. You don't talk to a fax, you press buttons on the machine and it talks to the other end for you. Browsers are just the same. The webserver only knows how to interpret a stream of data but that's no good to you, so it presents it to you a a pretty UI and translates the buttons you click and the numbers you type into data the webserver can understand.

PeterGray
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Re: Selftrade's new website

#117855

Postby PeterGray » February 13th, 2018, 12:46 pm

I think that the pattern of use, where you enter your details and don't press enter - so you are ready to trade slightly more quickly - is probably fairly unusual amongst Selftrade's clients, so perhaps not something they've considered.

However, had they done so I think (and hope) they would have come to the conclusion that what they are doing is right!

If you can enter your login details and leave them sitting on a screen indefinitely you are no more secure than if you stay logged in indefinitely. You might go off to make a coffee/the loo/forget and go out or home etc and then anyone can come and login to your account - so timing it out is pretty essential security.

Peter

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Re: Selftrade's new website

#118287

Postby BobGe » February 15th, 2018, 5:57 am

PeterGray wrote:I think that the pattern of use, where you enter your details and don't press enter - so you are ready to trade slightly more quickly - is probably fairly unusual amongst Selftrade's clients, so perhaps not something they've considered.

Peter, Just for clarity that's not quite the point I made - the 1st log-in page apparently 'time expires' without any details being entered. One finds this out when one comes to use it, at the 'submit' point. (Although I accept that there might not be any difference whether it was blank, partly filled or fully filled if it's the result of a cookie expiry.)

Even when filled (the 1st log-in page, which uses 'general' information inputs) no one should be able to log-in if you were to 'go on a break' unless they had your password for the 2nd log-in page.
Bob.

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Re: Selftrade's new website

#118291

Postby BobGe » February 15th, 2018, 6:23 am

gbjbaanb wrote:Without timestamped cookies (which are compared to data held on the server when ask for the login page) the reply would work just as well as you did it originally...

gbjbaanb 'thanked' :-)

gbjbaanb
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Re: Selftrade's new website

#118350

Postby gbjbaanb » February 15th, 2018, 12:10 pm

BobGe wrote:
PeterGray wrote:Even when filled (the 1st log-in page, which uses 'general' information inputs) no one should be able to log-in if you were to 'go on a break' unless they had your password for the 2nd log-in page.
Bob.


Ah, well, the reason for having 2 login pages like this is a different type of security. Mainly a man-in-the-middle attack where they can redirect you to a different website that looks exactly like the one you're using, or worse - to get you to visit a website but with someone else's credentials "stuck" in your browser so you end up affecting their account thinking its your own.

the way this works is quite complicated and subtle so I won't try to explain it, but the way to ensure it doesn't happen is to set a (time expiring) cookie that says who you are, and when you direct to the next page (eg the one where you enter your password) the cookie value can be compared to the server to ensure that it is the correct one and nobody has managed to interfere with it. You'll see a lot of secure site use this approach of 2-page logins because of it. Its called Cross-Site Request Forgery attacks, or CSRF.

If you want details, try this: http://www.adambarth.com/papers/2008/ba ... hell-b.pdf

77ss
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Re: Selftrade's new website

#122842

Postby 77ss » March 7th, 2018, 9:14 am

77ss wrote:
Yes. I await a response (if any) to my secure message


As expected, I am being fobbed off.

I note, with some interest, the following passage from Equiniti's final results:

Selftrade, the division's execution-only brokerage service, had a successful year despite muted market conditions continuing to gain new customers and to win a greater share of business from existing customers. Selftrade benefitted from significant investment during 2017, resulting in the launch of its new online dealing platform towards the end of 2017 that we expect to drive further growth.

https://www.investegate.co.uk/equiniti- ... 00059054G/

As far as I am concerned, their business will shrink. Next year's ISA allowance is certainly going elsewhere.

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Re: Selftrade's new website

#126503

Postby BobGe » March 20th, 2018, 6:18 pm

Looks like Selftrade have made some modest changes to the website, which probably explains why the page is now wider than the screen window (again), and no functioning horizontal scroll bar!!. So much for their promised March update, I guess...
Months have past and and it's still rubbish. A PDF generation factility and as an improvement to navigations we now seem to have a couple of tabs. Yes, two. Wow! Anyone found anything else?

Many issues and suggestions still seem to have been ignored.

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Re: Selftrade's new website

#128727

Postby cat5 » March 28th, 2018, 11:52 pm

Having moved elsewhere and therefore my Selftrade account being closed (which I don't recall asking them to do, but is what I would wish at some point), I was a little surprised to get a mail from Selftrade around 16 March indicating an SSE corporate action.

Easy to guess what that was, for my SSE shares went ex-div before the transfer, and 16 March is when the dividend is payable.

So I gave them a phone call. First surprise: instead of the usual wait of 20 minutes plus, it was more like 20 seconds! I queried it: "Um, yes, there do seem to be a lot more people round here"!

It was agreed that they had indeed received the dividend. 12 days later, it still hasn't shown up with my new broker.

So, although their appalling phone support was one of the reasons I moved [*], and that might now be less of a reason, I'm still glad to be rid of them. I guess I should go through all my shares and check ex-div and payable dates to see if I'm going to have further problems.

[*] The website was the main reason.

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Re: Selftrade's new website

#128753

Postby PeterGray » March 29th, 2018, 9:03 am

To be fair, the problem of divs arriving after closure of an account is a problem for any broker. Whoever you are with it inevitably leads to a delay in getting them. I suspect your div would have turned up in due course if you had rung or not.

The fact that you were notified it had arrived I would see as a positive sign. Clearly they knew it and would have dealt with it, but it's fiddly time consuming paperwork and no one is likely to handle it very quickly.

Peter

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Re: Selftrade's new website

#128798

Postby gbjbaanb » March 29th, 2018, 12:21 pm

cat5 wrote:It was agreed that they had indeed received the dividend. 12 days later, it still hasn't shown up with my new broker.


What makes you think it was selftrade at fault here. Seems to be they've been very timely with recording and notifying you of the dividend.

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Re: Selftrade's new website

#129109

Postby cat5 » March 30th, 2018, 11:43 pm

gbjbaanb wrote:
cat5 wrote:It was agreed that they had indeed received the dividend. 12 days later, it still hasn't shown up with my new broker.


What makes you think it was selftrade at fault here. Seems to be they've been very timely with recording and notifying you of the dividend.


Because the timely recording and notifying was the standard automated email that happened whenever a divi arrived. Whereas, when I rang to query, the support person I got was rather evasive and referred to a colleague.

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Re: Selftrade's new website

#129132

Postby PeterGray » March 31st, 2018, 8:58 am

Because the timely recording and notifying was the standard automated email that happened whenever a divi arrived. Whereas, when I rang to query, the support person I got was rather evasive and referred to a colleague.

I'm not that surprised. Handling of divs for closed accounts is a relatively unusual and complex procedure. You wouldn't necessarily expect all front line phone handlers to know the details. That doesn't mean they aren't dealing with it correctly behind the scenes. I've no doubt your div would have turned up in due course in your new account without your intervention. But it's one of the well known features of moving accounts, regardless of broker, that divs that arrive after the account has closed take a long time to catch up.

Peter


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