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David Amess

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simsqu
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David Amess

#450440

Postby simsqu » October 15th, 2021, 6:45 pm

Awful of course, but I suspect this will be followed up by the inevitable platitudes, enquiry, lessons learned, must never happen again, Jo Cox, etc etc., all to absolutely no avail.

Surely the unpalatable truth is that, unless all public figures are kept behind bulletproof plexiglass whenever outside their front doors, they are going to attract the occasional nutter with murderous intent.

Very depressing

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Re: David Amess

#450461

Postby XFool » October 15th, 2021, 7:47 pm

simsqu wrote:Awful of course, but I suspect this will be followed up by the inevitable platitudes, enquiry, lessons learned, must never happen again, Jo Cox, etc etc., all to absolutely no avail.

Surely the unpalatable truth is that, unless all public figures are kept behind bulletproof plexiglass whenever outside their front doors, they are going to attract the occasional nutter with murderous intent.

And yet they didn't used to, or so it seemed.

simsqu wrote:Very depressing

Indeed.

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Re: David Amess

#450462

Postby Lootman » October 15th, 2021, 7:52 pm

simsqu wrote:Surely the unpalatable truth is that, unless all public figures are kept behind bulletproof plexiglass whenever outside their front doors, they are going to attract the occasional nutter with murderous intent.

Another reason, perhaps, why the quality of people going into political life has been declining for a good while now. The US President might be the only politician who is immunised from such threats, but at a massive cost.

What this really reflects is a growth in intolerance. Whether it is Arab terrorists, or people blocking motorways, or other kinds of protests involving harm and inconvenience, it sometimes seems these days that everyone thinks that their own personal ideology, beliefs and prejudices are so important that they justify actions that go so far beyond the mere expression of free speech.

People are taking themselves much too seriously.

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Re: David Amess

#450480

Postby tjh290633 » October 15th, 2021, 9:10 pm

It didn't stop Reagan from being attacked.

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Re: David Amess

#450491

Postby csearle » October 15th, 2021, 10:10 pm

tjh290633 wrote:It didn't stop Reagan from being attacked.
Amongst others.

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Re: David Amess

#450494

Postby Maylix » October 15th, 2021, 10:43 pm

tjh290633 wrote:It didn't stop Reagan from being attacked.

A bit like the vaccine, doesn't stop the attack, but greatly reduces the chance of death! :lol:

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Re: David Amess

#450496

Postby Redmires » October 15th, 2021, 10:53 pm

XFool wrote:And yet they didn't used to, or so it seemed.


Let's not forget that they certainly were targets in the 70's - 90's. Just a different flavour of terrorist these days. Very sad.

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Re: David Amess

#450497

Postby UncleEbenezer » October 15th, 2021, 10:55 pm

Lootman wrote:The US President might be the only politician who is immunised from such threats, but at a massive cost.

Like Kennedy or Lincoln?

In a sense, the saddest case was Olof Palme in 1986. A serving prime minister living an ordinary life, with no kind of bodyguard. It simply hadn't been thought necessary by anyone, including him. And that after incurring the wrath of many powerful enemies including both superpowers by not being shy to criticise their respective atrocities.

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Re: David Amess

#450542

Postby sg31 » October 16th, 2021, 10:34 am

Most protection relies on people not wanting to be caught or killed as they attack someone. If the attacker is prepared to die it is impossible to protect someone sufficiently without locking them away in a secure location. That's not possible for public figures so these killings will continue to happen.

Sad isn't it.

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Re: David Amess

#450578

Postby Gilgongo » October 16th, 2021, 1:45 pm

Lootman wrote:What this really reflects is a growth in intolerance. Whether it is Arab terrorists, or people blocking motorways, or other kinds of protests involving harm and inconvenience, it sometimes seems these days that everyone thinks that their own personal ideology, beliefs and prejudices are so important that they justify actions that go so far beyond the mere expression of free speech.

People are taking themselves much too seriously.


If political violence in the UK is getting more common (and I'm not sure that it is) then it would need a cause...

If you were born after about 1990, the chances of you having what your parents had when they were 30 (a house, a car, savings and a proper pension, freedom to travel, etc.) are low. Climate change, over a decade of cuts to social welfare (and many more before then), soaring inequality, rampant tax evasion clearly documented, the gig economy, etc. have often quite visible causes. And every time economic and social regulations are removed, every time minorities (even GPs now!) are blamed for social ills, every time public services are cut, fossil fuels burnt despite warnings while private equity strip-mines the socio-economic landscape... it removes the comfort that society as a whole needs if it's to function properly. If you expect people not to take that seriously, or not to grow "intolerant" of it, then perhaps you'd prefer the beatings to continue until morale improves.

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Re: David Amess

#450579

Postby UncleEbenezer » October 16th, 2021, 1:50 pm

As ever in these cases, the worst risk is horrendous overreaction from TPTB and/or the people getting scared and captured by the great tyrants.

Fortunately I can't see this case becoming a successor to the really effective terrorists Gavrilo Princip or Yigal Amir.

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Re: David Amess

#450605

Postby Lootman » October 16th, 2021, 4:18 pm

Gilgongo wrote:
Lootman wrote:What this really reflects is a growth in intolerance. Whether it is Arab terrorists, or people blocking motorways, or other kinds of protests involving harm and inconvenience, it sometimes seems these days that everyone thinks that their own personal ideology, beliefs and prejudices are so important that they justify actions that go so far beyond the mere expression of free speech.

People are taking themselves much too seriously.

If political violence in the UK is getting more common (and I'm not sure that it is) then it would need a cause...

If you were born after about 1990, the chances of you having what your parents had when they were 30 (a house, a car, savings and a proper pension, freedom to travel, etc.) are low. Climate change, over a decade of cuts to social welfare (and many more before then), soaring inequality, rampant tax evasion clearly documented, the gig economy, etc. have often quite visible causes. And every time economic and social regulations are removed, every time minorities (even GPs now!) are blamed for social ills, every time public services are cut, fossil fuels burnt despite warnings while private equity strip-mines the socio-economic landscape... it removes the comfort that society as a whole needs if it's to function properly

If you expect people not to take that seriously, or not to grow "intolerant" of it, then perhaps you'd prefer the beatings to continue until morale improves.

In those instances I expect people to vote differently. I expect them to peacefully and legally argue for change. I expect them to engage in mature debate. I don't expect them to become violent, harmful or disruptive.

If I can express opinions peacefully why can't (some) others?

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Re: David Amess

#450658

Postby Sussexlad » October 16th, 2021, 7:47 pm

Gilgongo wrote:If you were born after about 1990, the chances of you having what your parents had when they were 30 (a house, a car, savings and a proper pension, freedom to travel, etc.) are low. Climate change, over a decade of cuts to social welfare (and many more before then), soaring inequality, rampant tax evasion clearly documented, the gig economy, etc. have often quite visible causes. And every time economic and social regulations are removed, every time minorities (even GPs now!) are blamed for social ills, every time public services are cut, fossil fuels burnt despite warnings while private equity strip-mines the socio-economic landscape... it removes the comfort that society as a whole needs if it's to function properly. If you expect people not to take that seriously, or not to grow "intolerant" of it, then perhaps you'd prefer the beatings to continue until morale improves.


I have mixed feelings over this. I think we have shifted from a world where personal responsibility ruled, to one of rights and entitlement. It's no one else's responsibility to pay your way. A few went to university but most like me, left school and went to work a week later, training was at a college. By 20 I was earning an adult wage, by 23 married with my wife also working full-time and indeed we could afford to buy our first, small house but we didn't have a child for 5 years. I've had one new car, never flown, been to the continent a few times but have basically lived quite frugally.

Where I do believe there's a real problem these days is in job longevity. I worked in the some organisation for 40 years and as you say, a decent pension came with it. Now, no one can be certain they'll have a job in twelve months time and that makes it almost impossible to plan and almost certainly there will be financial struggles at some point for everyone, with pension planning a nightmare. Add to that the growing insecurity within relationships and the relative certainty and stability most have experienced is no more for most.

However, how you get round those issues, in this rapidly changing world, I have no idea ! All I will say, is that I believe we've enjoyed the best period this country is ever going to have to offer and I'm very grateful.

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Re: David Amess

#450761

Postby SimonS » October 17th, 2021, 12:43 pm

Sussexlad wrote:
Gilgongo wrote:If you were born after about 1990, the chances of you having what your parents had when they were 30 (a house, a car, savings and a proper pension, freedom to travel, etc.) are low. Climate change, over a decade of cuts to social welfare (and many more before then), soaring inequality, rampant tax evasion clearly documented, the gig economy, etc. have often quite visible causes. And every time economic and social regulations are removed, every time minorities (even GPs now!) are blamed for social ills, every time public services are cut, fossil fuels burnt despite warnings while private equity strip-mines the socio-economic landscape... it removes the comfort that society as a whole needs if it's to function properly. If you expect people not to take that seriously, or not to grow "intolerant" of it, then perhaps you'd prefer the beatings to continue until morale improves.


I have mixed feelings over this. I think we have shifted from a world where personal responsibility ruled, to one of rights and entitlement. It's no one else's responsibility to pay your way. A few went to university but most like me, left school and went to work a week later, training was at a college. By 20 I was earning an adult wage, by 23 married with my wife also working full-time and indeed we could afford to buy our first, small house but we didn't have a child for 5 years. I've had one new car, never flown, been to the continent a few times but have basically lived quite frugally.

Where I do believe there's a real problem these days is in job longevity. I worked in the some organisation for 40 years and as you say, a decent pension came with it. Now, no one can be certain they'll have a job in twelve months time and that makes it almost impossible to plan and almost certainly there will be financial struggles at some point for everyone, with pension planning a nightmare. Add to that the growing insecurity within relationships and the relative certainty and stability most have experienced is no more for most.

However, how you get round those issues, in this rapidly changing world, I have no idea ! All I will say, is that I believe we've enjoyed the best period this country is ever going to have to offer and I'm very grateful.


There are a couple of things you miss out. When you( and I) grew up it was considered important that one saved if at all possible. Now the emphasis is on spending. Indeed as we have seen repeatedly in the pandemic, many industries exist solely to provide employment and are now considered too big / important to be allowed to go to the wall because they employ too many people. On a minor scale, I have a young godchild who has rarely washed, or had washed, her Tee-shirts. Her mother worked out it was cheaper to buy them and dispose of them than to wash them. Washing them would require her to buy and run a washing machine, then move to somewhere with extra space and so on. The old laundrette, as the advert almost said, is now a trendy wine bar.

A quick look at the ONS saving trend shows that saving rose dramatically with the onset of the pandemic to over 20% from around 6%, its lowest level for years, but now seems to be heading back down again equally fast. So the lack of savings is almost entirely voluntary, people seeing no reason to save money.

Advertising is significantly to blame along with a trendy ignorance. One young person I know has gone to university but proudly told her mother that the stove in their digs is entirely unused and therefore immaculate because none of the girls with whom she shares has any idea how to cook. (trendy ideas are to blame for more than that, with a government proud of producing a knowledge oriented society, should it have come as any surprise that there is a shortage of lorry drivers and manual skills workers.

Essentially we get the government we vote for, and certainly since the 90's that government (whatever the party) has been concentrating on the trendy,youth-centric views rather than actually laying a foundation and infrastructure for a successful country.

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Re: David Amess

#450796

Postby SteMiS » October 17th, 2021, 2:26 pm

SimonS wrote:There are a couple of things you miss out. When you( and I) grew up it was considered important that one saved if at all possible. Now the emphasis is on spending.

I'm not sure the long term savings ratio figures support this however when my father was starting out, as a tool maker foreman (having left school at 13 to go to technical college and then apprenticed at 15) with two young children and a stay at home wife, he bought a brand new semi in 1962 for £1750. Probably had to save a 10% deposit. £1750 in todays money is about £38,000. The problem is that that house would now cost £150,000. Saving a 10% deposit is now out of reach for someone in his position (assuming he could have even got a mortgage for the rest). Rents have also followed up house prices making it even harder to save than when he was young

SimonS wrote:On a minor scale, I have a young godchild who has rarely washed, or had washed, her Tee-shirts. Her mother worked out it was cheaper to buy them and dispose of them than to wash them. Washing them would require her to buy and run a washing machine, then move to somewhere with extra space and so on. The old laundrette, as the advert almost said, is now a trendy wine bar.

So she doesn't wash underwear, other clothes, towels, bed clothes? Sounds a little unlikely...

SimonS wrote:Advertising is significantly to blame along with a trendy ignorance. One young person I know has gone to university but proudly told her mother that the stove in their digs is entirely unused and therefore immaculate because none of the girls with whom she shares has any idea how to cook. (trendy ideas are to blame for more than that, with a government proud of producing a knowledge oriented society, should it have come as any surprise that there is a shortage of lorry drivers and manual skills workers.

I've two sons at university and my girlfriend a daughter. All they and their shares cook. In contrast my father could barely cook an egg. I doubt the shortage of lorry drivers is much to do with culinary skills of the younger generation.

SimonS wrote:Essentially we get the government we vote for, and certainly since the 90's that government (whatever the party) has been concentrating on the trendy,youth-centric views rather than actually laying a foundation and infrastructure for a successful country.

I agree that we get the government we vote for and that we seem to have forgotten the idea that "society grows strong when old men plant trees the shade of which they'll never sit under". But I disagree that we've been running the country in the interests of the young. Quite the contrary...

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Re: David Amess

#450801

Postby MrFoolish » October 17th, 2021, 2:52 pm

SimonS wrote:A quick look at the ONS saving trend shows that saving rose dramatically with the onset of the pandemic to over 20% from around 6%, its lowest level for years, but now seems to be heading back down again equally fast. So the lack of savings is almost entirely voluntary, people seeing no reason to save money.


I expect saving is a hard sell to young people, saddled with tuition fee debts, near zero interest rates and house prices out of reach.

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Re: David Amess

#450804

Postby Sussexlad » October 17th, 2021, 3:21 pm

SteMiS wrote:I'm not sure the long term savings ratio figures support this however when my father was starting out, as a tool maker foreman (having left school at 13 to go to technical college and then apprenticed at 15) with two young children and a stay at home wife, he bought a brand new semi in 1962 for £1750. Probably had to save a 10% deposit. £1750 in todays money is about £38,000. The problem is that that house would now cost £150,000. Saving a 10% deposit is now out of reach for someone in his position (assuming he could have even got a mortgage for the rest). Rents have also followed up house prices making it even harder to save than when he was young


Can't argue with any of that. Our first house was £3850 and with a 95% mortgage, the deposit was approx 2 months take home pay of £75. I did have to go into the pay group though and argue that my regular shift allowance should be included in my income in order to have the mortgage approved!.

Now those same houses are in excess of £300,000 and you require a 10% deposit. There's simply no comparison.

It does irk me though, that watching 'Homes Under the Hammer', some people are making £10,000s for just a few weeks work! We didn't expect to walk into pristine homes and did our own DIY, to gradually bring the house up-to-date. I do accept that the authorities have now terrorised our young folk by telling them a screwdriver is a lethal weapon and as for electricity !!!!! but I think we need a bit more Barry Bucknell and less HUTH..

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Re: David Amess

#450810

Postby MrFoolish » October 17th, 2021, 4:07 pm

Sussexlad wrote:It does irk me though, that watching 'Homes Under the Hammer', some people are making £10,000s for just a few weeks work! We didn't expect to walk into pristine homes and did our own DIY, to gradually bring the house up-to-date. I do accept that the authorities have now terrorised our young folk by telling them a screwdriver is a lethal weapon and as for electricity !!!!! but I think we need a bit more Barry Bucknell and less HUTH..


Have to agree with you here. I know from personal experience of trying to sell a very affordable terrace house but with "old person's decor" that not a single young person turned up for a viewing. Was told by the estate agent that young people are not interested in a property that needs any work doing on it. Sad.

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Re: David Amess

#450820

Postby UncleEbenezer » October 17th, 2021, 4:40 pm

MrFoolish wrote:
Sussexlad wrote:It does irk me though, that watching 'Homes Under the Hammer', some people are making £10,000s for just a few weeks work! We didn't expect to walk into pristine homes and did our own DIY, to gradually bring the house up-to-date. I do accept that the authorities have now terrorised our young folk by telling them a screwdriver is a lethal weapon and as for electricity !!!!! but I think we need a bit more Barry Bucknell and less HUTH..


Have to agree with you here. I know from personal experience of trying to sell a very affordable terrace house but with "old person's decor" that not a single young person turned up for a viewing. Was told by the estate agent that young people are not interested in a property that needs any work doing on it. Sad.


Yeah, but not true. My neighbours at my previous house had a daughter who bought a house to do up at age 19. More extreme than her, those folks who bought on "a house for £1" schemes.

And the doer-upper houses weren't an unmitigated good, either. My parents owned the first house I remember, and it was much bigger than I'll ever afford - which was great. But they couldn't afford to do it up. A few slates going missing from the roof each winter was an expectation, and when my bedroom ceiling collapsed on me it was just one of those things (shrug). Different times, different standards.

Finally, one reason fewer young people like doing up a wreck is that they now have an alternative. A rental market that, while it still leaves something to be desired, is mercifully distant from the worlds of Rachmann or Hoogstraaten.

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Re: David Amess

#450828

Postby Sussexlad » October 17th, 2021, 5:06 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:
MrFoolish wrote:
Sussexlad wrote:It does irk me though, that watching 'Homes Under the Hammer', some people are making £10,000s for just a few weeks work! We didn't expect to walk into pristine homes and did our own DIY, to gradually bring the house up-to-date. I do accept that the authorities have now terrorised our young folk by telling them a screwdriver is a lethal weapon and as for electricity !!!!! but I think we need a bit more Barry Bucknell and less HUTH..


Have to agree with you here. I know from personal experience of trying to sell a very affordable terrace house but with "old person's decor" that not a single young person turned up for a viewing. Was told by the estate agent that young people are not interested in a property that needs any work doing on it. Sad.


Yeah, but not true. My neighbours at my previous house had a daughter who bought a house to do up at age 19. More extreme than her, those folks who bought on "a house for £1" schemes.

And the doer-upper houses weren't an unmitigated good, either. My parents owned the first house I remember, and it was much bigger than I'll ever afford - which was great. But they couldn't afford to do it up. A few slates going missing from the roof each winter was an expectation, and when my bedroom ceiling collapsed on me it was just one of those things (shrug). Different times, different standards.

Finally, one reason fewer young people like doing up a wreck is that they now have an alternative. A rental market that, while it still leaves something to be desired, is mercifully distant from the worlds of Rachmann or Hoogstraaten.


You don't have to buy a wreck or one that's too big though. You start small and move up the market if that's what you require. The point with DIY is that you're not paying for the labour or huge profits for developers.

As for the growing rental market, who's going to be paying all these rents when they eventually retire?


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