The Lemon Fool

Posted: **November 8th, 2022, 12:50 pm**

My impression from having listened to the whole series of the BBC R4 programmes when first broadcast, is that Paula Vennells is the one who steamrollered the prosecutions through regardless of the evidence put before her that the "Horizon" system was unreliable and flawed.

Posted: **November 8th, 2022, 9:11 pm**

XFool wrote:https://www.postofficetrial.com/2019/12/second-sights-ron-warmington-breaks-his.html

https://www.postofficetrial.com/search?q=ian+henderson&max-results=20

I am grateful to m'learned friend for these links. I hadn't realised that Ian Henderson had made an appearance, precisely one year ago, in the preliminary hearing.

Cinelli

Posted: **November 24th, 2022, 8:39 pm**

Post Office scandal: Horizon contract was 'fatally flawed'

BBC News

A former minister has told a public inquiry into the Post Office Horizon scandal that the contract for the faulty software was "fatally flawed".

"Stephen Byers said he was not aware prosecutions of sub-postmasters were using evidence from Horizon when he was responsible for the Post Office."

Posted: **November 24th, 2022, 10:12 pm**

XFool wrote:Post Office scandal: Horizon contract was 'fatally flawed'

BBC News

A former minister has told a public inquiry into the Post Office Horizon scandal that the contract for the faulty software was "fatally flawed".

"Stephen Byers said he was not aware prosecutions of sub-postmasters were using evidence from Horizon when he was responsible for the Post Office."

Golly. So no-one wrote to the minister responsible at the time? Despite him and everyone else already knowing Horizon was unfit for purpose?

I note that article describes the company responsible as Japanese, despite them only recently (at the time) having inherited the mess when they were mis-sold the British vanity company ICL. The Japs might legitimately be offended not at the well-deserved blow to their company, but at having been suckered into buying a dud on the strength of the Horizon contract.

Posted: **November 25th, 2022, 12:45 am**

staffordian wrote:
XFool wrote:
staffordian wrote:
doolally wrote:
Redmires wrote:Er... No. But rest assured that lessons will be learnt.

Not quite. "Lessons will be learnt" is an obligatory stock phrase used in situations like this.
Whether lessons will actually be learnt in practice is questionable.
doolally

That's precisely what I read into Redmire's post, though some sort of emoticon might have emphasised what I took to be either irony or exasperation

Indeed, that is how I read it. Also I thought, if I had written that I would have made use of the 'ironic' quotes: ...rest assured that "lessons will be learnt".

I understand everyone is very angry about all this and want culprits to punish, however...

Personally, I wonder if something like this can be simply explained by a few 'guilty men'. I speculated about some kind of general explanation of how this situation might have come about (possibly on another thread on this topic?) - very likely wrongly. Also, I have just finished reading "Bad Blood - Secrets and Lies in a Silicon Valley Startup" about the Theranos scandal in the US.

In other words, is it not a case of corporate failure and what contributes (may be individuals) to such failures? The best lessons may be to learn about this. But this may be complex, people will expect and want 'simple' explanations.

I suspect the bugs and errors within the system may well have been complex, but to me, there is one overriding issue, for which individuals must certainly be responsible.

That is the decision(s) made to blame, financially penalise and prosecute individuals when it was abundantly clear that there were serious problems with the system.

Now if those who made these decisions were somehow mislead, and assured that the system was faultless, then those who made those assertions should be held responsible.

I find it impossible to believe that everything was innocently done. Someone, somewhere IMHO made an executive decision to prioritise implementation of the Horizon system above everything else. That person must be morally if not legally guilty and should be held to account.

This is what I can't understand from the original prosecution. If I were defending, I would have just asked Fujitsu for their list of Sofrware updates and bug fixes for the previous 5 years. I bet it would be thousand of pages long, and would immediately disprove "there's nothing wrong with the software" statement

Posted: **November 25th, 2022, 8:39 am**

MickR wrote:This is what I can't understand from the original prosecution. If I were defending, I would have just asked Fujitsu for their list of Sofrware updates and bug fixes for the previous 5 years. I bet it would be thousand of pages long, and would immediately disprove "there's nothing wrong with the software" statement

Agreed.

I suspect a key reason why this didn't happen was that it seems that the Post Office told each "victim" that they were the only person having such a problem, or words to that effect, so no-one on the defence side was aware it was potentially widespread.

Posted: **November 25th, 2022, 12:39 pm**

staffordian wrote:
MickR wrote:This is what I can't understand from the original prosecution. If I were defending, I would have just asked Fujitsu for their list of Sofrware updates and bug fixes for the previous 5 years. I bet it would be thousand of pages long, and would immediately disprove "there's nothing wrong with the software" statement

Agreed.

I suspect a key reason why this didn't happen was that it seems that the Post Office told each "victim" that they were the only person having such a problem, or words to that effect, so no-one on the defence side was aware it was potentially widespread.

... as might still be the case today, were it not for the effect of the 'net putting them in touch with each other. Even those intrepid journalists from Private Eye and the BBC might be banging on in vain ...

Posted: **December 8th, 2022, 10:43 am**

'We haven't had a single penny from the Post Office'

BBC News

Baljit Sethi cannot understand why it is taking so long for the Post Office to pay him compensation.

"It doesn't seem like they're interested in doing anything," he says.

Posted: **December 8th, 2022, 5:34 pm**

XFool wrote:'We haven't had a single penny from the Post Office'

BBC News

Baljit Sethi cannot understand why it is taking so long for the Post Office to pay him compensation.

"It doesn't seem like they're interested in doing anything," he says.

Much like the tainted blood scandal. Draw things out as long as possible so that the claimants die off. Sad but true.

Posted: **December 8th, 2022, 5:44 pm**

Redmires wrote:
XFool wrote:'We haven't had a single penny from the Post Office'

BBC News

Baljit Sethi cannot understand why it is taking so long for the Post Office to pay him compensation.

"It doesn't seem like they're interested in doing anything," he says.

Much like the tainted blood scandal. Draw things out as long as possible so that the claimants die off. Sad but true.

If that is so, then it is worse, far worse, than sad.

Dod

Posted: **December 9th, 2022, 9:58 am**

Dod101 wrote:
Redmires wrote:
XFool wrote:'We haven't had a single penny from the Post Office'

BBC News

Baljit Sethi cannot understand why it is taking so long for the Post Office to pay him compensation.

"It doesn't seem like they're interested in doing anything," he says.

Much like the tainted blood scandal. Draw things out as long as possible so that the claimants die off. Sad but true.

If that is so, then it is worse, far worse, than sad.

Dod

Yes it's criminal and cruel. The PO has acted like the mob, and are still doing so.

Posted: **February 23rd, 2023, 12:34 pm**

And now the latest. Seems that the compensation (for loss of earnings) is, not unnaturally, to be taxed. However, the compensation is to be paid in one lump sum rather than weekly or monthly and taxed accordingly. That will put most beneficiaries into the top rate of tax, can you believe?

Furthermore, a large part of the compensation will be interest for the delay in making payment, on which tax will be levied. Had it been compensation for personal injury it would have been tax free.

Does not seem fair does it?

Dod

Posted: **February 23rd, 2023, 2:01 pm**

Dod101 wrote:And now the latest. Seems that the compensation (for loss of earnings) is, not unnaturally, to be taxed. However, the compensation is to be paid in one lump sum rather than weekly or monthly and taxed accordingly. That will put most beneficiaries into the top rate of tax, can you believe?

https://www.taxjournal.com/articles/pos ... ues-111826

Posted: **February 23rd, 2023, 2:15 pm**

Dod101 wrote:And now the latest. Seems that the compensation (for loss of earnings) is, not unnaturally, to be taxed. However, the compensation is to be paid in one lump sum rather than weekly or monthly and taxed accordingly. That will put most beneficiaries into the top rate of tax, can you believe?

Furthermore, a large part of the compensation will be interest for the delay in making payment, on which tax will be levied. Had it been compensation for personal injury it would have been tax free.

Does not seem fair does it?

Dod

Especially as had it been paid on at the time it should have, then normal tax would have applied
good too see in the link above that

"TPA suggests that the UK government should include a solution in the Spring 2023 Finance Bill, by introducing an exemption from income tax on the compensation payments which would apply retrospectively. "

Posted: **February 23rd, 2023, 3:53 pm**

AF62 wrote:
Dod101 wrote:And now the latest. Seems that the compensation (for loss of earnings) is, not unnaturally, to be taxed. However, the compensation is to be paid in one lump sum rather than weekly or monthly and taxed accordingly. That will put most beneficiaries into the top rate of tax, can you believe?

https://www.taxjournal.com/articles/pos ... ues-111826

Thanks. I picked it up in The Times this morning and it probably was sourced from your piece.

Dod

Posted: **May 2nd, 2023, 1:31 pm**

Hundreds of lives ruined. Not a single person held to account. And still: silence on the Post Office scandal
Marina Hyde

The Guardian

Horrific detail piles on horrific detail as the inquiry rumbles on, barely noticed by those for whom this injustice is seemingly not sexy enough

"The grim saga rumbles on, with comparatively little coverage given its scale and significance. It was arguably ever thus, with all the big beats of this story broken by the likes of Rebecca Thomson at Computer Weekly, the journalist Nick Wallis, Private Eye and the victims themselves, such as Alan Bates. The Times is currently running an excellent series of articles on where we are now, which has revealed that 59 of the victims have died before the end of the inquiry, while some victims were only allocated £1,000 in legal aid. The Post Office has spent £100m on City lawyers."

Posted: **May 2nd, 2023, 3:21 pm**

FWIW I have written to my MP again with regard to this atrocious scandal. The inquiry itself is a scandal of close proportions to the original injustice.

Leo

Posted: **June 26th, 2023, 5:35 pm**

This Tuesday afternoon, 27 July at 4pm. BBC R4 "The Great Post Office Trial: The Inside Story"

https://www.bbc.com/mediacentre/proginfo/2023/26/the-great-post-office-trial-the-inside-story

Posted: **June 26th, 2023, 9:03 pm**

...27 June, not July.

Posted: **June 27th, 2023, 7:53 pm**

XFool wrote:This Tuesday afternoon, 27 July at 4pm. BBC R4 "The Great Post Office Trial: The Inside Story"

https://www.bbc.com/mediacentre/proginfo/2023/26/the-great-post-office-trial-the-inside-story

Anyone else's blood boiling?
The PO is STILL trying to con the Subpostmasters out of an appropriate compensation package. It seems they have learned nothing and continue
with their refusal to admit full liability and confess their guilt.

I truly hope their actions bite them hard on their guilty [expletive deleted] and the senior management, including those awarded CBEs and "holy" associations, face criminal prosecution and disgrace.

They make me sick.

ps Over 60 accused subpostmasters have died awaiting justice.

The Lemon Fool

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