Lemon Soul

[panamagold]

I signed up to TMF in Feb 1999 and was moded just the one time after taking a slice out of some sanctimonious pr1ck (can't remember their handle).
They indulged themselves in a holier than-thou castigating of myself for having the temerity to enquire on the Computer board if anyone knew how to enter the gubbins of MS Office and change the default name as I was donating a computer, with Office installed, to a small cash strapped dog rescue charity.

[UncleEbenezer]

All seems pretty Jurassic now, back in '95/6 the internet was in it's infancy, and we were mostly accessing 'Soc.etc.etc' newsgroups via unix terminals. The first time I saw a website with html [at that time] it was something else. Naturally it was a porn channel, which seemed to dominate the early web.

Just to take issue with that. '95 was when I set up my first publicly-accessible web server (c/o my then-client, who I convinced could benefit from it rather than having to take orders for data via fax and send the data on a tape). I'm not sure exactly what counts as porn, but in over 30 years online from home and/or work[1], the most I've encountered is on newspaper websites, particularly the Daily Mail. Anything nastier, you have to take the trouble to seek it out.

[1] OK, not all of that was the Web as we know it today. It was 1987 I first subscribed to an online service provider - a precursor of the modern 'net - and saw my first online pics of sorts.

[csearle]

Ah spammers..
Been mercifully free so far, although a few 'low volume ' posters are on my mental watch list ...

You live a sheltered life AC. We have a constant stream of spammers and a working mechanism to keep on top of them (so far). Chris

[Gengulphus]

Ah spammers..
Been mercifully free so far, although a few 'low volume ' posters are on my mental watch list ...

You live a sheltered life AC. We have a constant stream of spammers and a working mechanism to keep on top of them (so far). Chris

One of the dangers of any really effective 'policing': it's so effective that people cease to see any need for it! :-}

Gengulphus

[AleisterCrowley]

Ah spammers..
Been mercifully free so far, although a few 'low volume ' posters are on my mental watch list ...

You live a sheltered life AC. We have a constant stream of spammers and a working mechanism to keep on top of them (so far). Chris

You're doing a wonderful job CS et al
Obviously I only see the ones that get through the mod-filter, and they disappear quickly. Of course sometimes it takes them a while to show their true colours -they start off all innocuous..
The loathsome spotted reptiles!

[Gengulphus]

Interesting, I found the moderating on the old place to be a bit of a PITA, especially when a thread was to be considered closed, but you hadn't noticed and found that your beautifully crafted and erudite post, that had been given lots of Recs, was cut. Or even worse, the post you were answering was cut and you went with it.

I don't think that I've been moded here, but it used to seem to happen at least once a month at the old place.

At the 'old place', the main way that I found out when I'd had a post removed by the moderators was that I received an email from TMF saying they'd done so. I did occasionally happen to spot that the post had gone before I saw the email, but that was very rare: most times, I'm pretty certain I would never have noticed if it hadn't been for the email. And when it happened, the email normally told me why they'd removed it and included a copy of the text of my post, which made it much easier for me to fix the reason for the removal and repost if I wanted to, or for example to rescue a particularly beautifully-crafted bit of text for use in another post if I wanted to do that instead. I didn't want to do either of those two things all that often, and it was less than perfect because the email only returned the basic text of the post without the formatting, and recreating the formatting could take a bit of work - but it was definitely easier than recreating the whole thing!

Here, the only way I discover I've been 'modded' is if I happen to look back to where I'd posted in the thread, and if my post has been removed there will be no sign that it was ever even there - so I may well not even suspect that it's happened, and even if I do, I'll often not remember exactly what I'd posted where definitely enough to know rather than just suspect... From my point of view, that's very much a minus point of the TLF moderation system compared with TMF.

As a bit of an aside, I do appreciate that from the moderators' point of view, it's not so clear-cut: a user who doesn't know that they've been 'modded' is a user who doesn't argue with the moderator about it - but also a user who may well not know that they've done anything that the moderators find unacceptable, so there's a distinct risk that they'll do it again... Moderators can try to deal with that by adding moderator messages, but ones placed in the 'modded' post may well go just as unnoticed as the actual 'modding', and users may well see ones placed in a new post at the end of the thread as applying to other users, not themselves. (I've certainly seen cases of users who have made remarks that I'm pretty certain the moderators would consider both personal and at least mildly derogatory and in the same post said that they don't post personal attacks! Which is understandable, as it probably just means that they have a different threshold for considering something "personal" and/or an "attack" than the moderators, but a moderation system can only function smoothly if users adapt their behaviour to the moderators' standards: the alternative of the moderators adapting their moderation to each user's standards is clearly totally unworkable!)

Back to the main points I want to make: one of them is that how much people perceive themselves as having been 'modded' doesn't necessarily reflect how much they actually have been, and there are very good reasons to think it doesn't when one moderation system much more actively draws users' attention to the fact than the other. So while I too have noticed my posts being 'modded' quite a lot less than at TMF, I don't think that necessarily reflects reality.

The other is that although I regard the failure to inform users that their posts have been 'modded' and to return what they wrote to them as a minus point of the TLF moderation system compared with the TMF one, I'm not saying that it's a worse moderation system. It has major plus points as well, in particular the moderators being able to move and edit problematic posts rather than just having the options of doing nothing, posting to the board to ask users to cease and desist, or removing the posts concerned (and the more drastic option of also suspending/banning the author, of course). Those make a lot of the 'modding' that does happen much less drastic than it was at TMF, because there were substantial problems with all of the options the TMF moderators had.

So I think the TLF moderation system has both good and bad points compared with TMF's. Overall, I think it's better, but equally that at least in principle it could be improved. How easy that would be in practice is the difficult question, though - because the changes I can see that I consider pretty clear improvements all depend on upgrading the software, in ways that might be anything from a simple configuration change to something that required reimplementation every time TLF moved to a new version of the phpBB software.

Gengulphus

[Clariman]

I have been following this thread with interest. If the site has a "soul" (or not) is down to the posts that are made, the social element, the ethos set out and the moderating. As creators of the site, Stooz and I can take full responsibility for the ethos and a degree of responsibility of the moderating. The rest is down to you all!

Given that TMF was precious to many people and that TLF could become just as important, we do not want to jeopardise it. Given that there is no limited company or organisation behind it, we are taking a low-risk approach when it comes to copyright issues (for example). In terms of users being "polite" to each other and not attacking others, then I'll take full responsibility for that, because I would not want any site that has my name (even pseudonym) on it to be a bear pit or worse. Someone used the word "prim" about the site. I'd rather it was seen as "respectful" than "prim" but maybe that amounts to the same thing.

As far as moderation goes it is a tricky area. We have some well-defined rules and we have some moderation guidelines. Overall I think the moderators do a brilliant job keeping this site in order, but there are a few mod decisions that I would have done differently. But that's going to happen when everyone involved in running and maintaining this site is a volunteer. We are all human.

One could argue that if there is room for subjectivity in moderation decisions then maybe we need a tighter set of rules. The trouble with that is that over-tight rules remove the ability for a bit of common-sense to be used when making judgements.

That's my thoughts.

C

[Lootman]

how much people perceive themselves as having been 'modded' doesn't necessarily reflect how much they actually have been, and there are very good reasons to think it doesn't when one moderation system much more actively draws users' attention to the fact than the other. So while I too have noticed my posts being 'modded' quite a lot less than at TMF, I don't think that necessarily reflects reality.

I'd agree that many of us have probably been moderated here without always knowing it. And when that happens then, as you suggest, the user does not learn anything, and so is likely to continue to do the same thing.

But if that were a widespread problem then I would imagine that a Moderator would write to the guilty party pointing out the repeated transgressions, thereby alerting the miscreant to the problem they would otherwise not be aware of. The alternative would be that the Moderator keeps removing the same Lemon's posts over and over again for the same crime, which would eat up the Moderator's time.

So even if it is too much trouble for a Moderator to send a message every time, they should surely do that when the alternative takes even more time. I somehow doubt that a Lemon can keep committing the same sin over and over again without being informed or warned. And I'd assume further that since I have not been informed or warned in that way, that my sins are deemed to be occasional and isolated rather than regular and systemic.

As for the comparison with TMF, it's interesting to see that some Lemons like Dod think the moderation here is stricter, whereas others like Slarti think it was stricter on TMF. I'd include myself in the latter camp as well as it very apparent to me that I was moderated more at TMF than TLF, and I am fairly sure I have not changed my posting style. But someone with a different posting style might encounter more moderation here. What irks a volunteer Moderator may be quite different from what irks a corporate employee. The difference in user perceptions of moderation on the two sites is probably a combination of site-specific and user-specific factors.

[melonfool]

So even if it is too much trouble for a Moderator to send a message every time, they should surely do that when the alternative takes even more time. I somehow doubt that a Lemon can keep committing the same sin over and over again without being informed or warned.

We do.

If there is, say, one post in a thread, in isolation, that has an issue and we delete it, I reckon we all PM the user to explain. But, if there is a whole load of posts that need dealing with, we probably don't. So, if you see a post that is out of line - it's best to report it (though I know you don't agree with reporting) and certainly not reply and quote it. There is nothing more annoying than picking up a report of 'he said this', you go to delete the post only to find five people have quoted it *including* the person who reported it to you, meaning you have to delete all those posts, or amend them in some way and I'm sure that you can understand that in those circumstances it's far easier to just delete the whole lot of posts and is a lot of hassle to PM each user.

If we have 'regular offenders' we discuss on the mod board what to do - we may not know of regular offenders as we mod different boards so if someone is a regular offender on one board I don't mod, I would have no idea, but may have seen one or two bad posts on 'my' boards. So, I wouldn't necessarily know if 'the alternative takes more time'. I try, I really try, to PM anyone where I remove a post. And I often PM the reporter to thank them as well. But, I have recently been treated badly by someone who I PM'd to tell them a post was removed and it really makes you stop and think about why you bother, frankly. And I expect that person is reading this.

I have also taken on board that putting mod boxes in posts does not get seen. If it's just a quick box to remove an expletive, say, then I don't think it matters, it's just for future readers not to have to see it and to maintain our 'prim' ethos.

But, if it changes the whole post, I would then tend to add a 'new post' explaining what has happened but make the whole post a mod box so that anyone subscribed to that thread will see it. I don't generally PM in these circs as, if it was a really bad transgression, I would have deleted and sent a PM anyway.

The main reason I might amend rather than delete is to keep the discussion going. But with some topics actually it is better to just stop the discussion anyway.

I don't actually think users need to 'learn', the rules are there, I am sure people can understand them and it's not black and white anyway.

I do think the ability to lock a thread here is good, I agree that responding to something on TMF then later seeing the 'thread stopper' and having your post removed or having to PP your own post, was a bit annoying.

Mel

[PinkDalek]

Shouldn't the more recent stuff about Moderation on this thread be at the "Biscuit Bar"?

This board being for light hearted pub related banter and discussion.

[AleisterCrowley]

pub...moderation...hmmm
http://www.themodreading.com/
Ideal for informal mod meets??
Last time I was there I was at Reading festival which makes it 2005 or before* - looks like it's gone upmarket...


*I'm officially 'too old for Reading' now

[PinkDalek]

pub...moderation...hmmm
http://www.themodreading.com/
Ideal for informal Mods meets?? ...

Looks somewhat elitist. No room for Rockers, informal or otherwise?

[Dod101]

I thoroughly object to my posts being mucked around with and am getting increasingly fed up of it.

Dod

Moderator Message:
Redsturgeon: I have removed the references in this post to a specific moderation action by a named moderator. Please PM for a specific response.

[Slarti]

I will add that, a few times I thought a post had been modded out of existence and then realised that it was the dreaded "Somebody else has posted to this thread while you were typing" and so it never got posted in the first place.

I've not had a post edited, think that I'd rather have the whole thing removed than to have it changed.

Finally, I have reported 2 or 3 posts where they advertising, pure and simple.

Slarti

[redsturgeon]

Moderator Message:
We have now drifted from "soul" to moderation. Please feel free to carry on discussing "soul" but any further posts on moderation will now be removed (and you probably won't receive a PM to tell you). If you wish to talk about general moderation then the Biscuit Bar is the place to do that.

[scotia]

I have settled in comfortably to TLF. The only board I miss from TMF is A Fool and his money _ but I fully understand why it was impractical to risk operating such a board

[PinkDalek]

viewtopic.php?p=146000#p146000

… At the recent Lemon Social I recall (half a gallon in, so perhaps not reliably) Pink Dalek and I disagreeing on the primary role of the site. IIRC PD felt it was information and help whereas I saw it more as entertainment and amusement. …

I forgot to reply to this and, yes, we were a number of drinks in and many of the conversations were interrupted. If I said that, I was probably trying to refer to the primary purpose of TLF, which I now see in the strapline is "Discussion forums for UK shares, Personal Finance and Investment". To me that is somewhat dry.

As for entertainment and amusement I think it should, within reason, depend on which board. I see you post at Polite Discussions a fair bit. Is that about entertainment or amusement or both?

I still have in mind to "Educate, Amuse and Enrich", despite that having been dropped a few years back in the old place, with the emphasis on my being educated and enriched by others here.

On the amuse front, I still wear my LoOToPian hat of old, I see your post was a Landmark.

[Howyoudoin]

….or the lack of it?

We're still in the early days of this site of course (and we're all very grateful for C&S for their efforts)…..but the place appears to be lacking soul.

Maybe it's just me.

Maybe I was expecting the 'feel' of the old Fool to transfer over immediately. Maybe it's the format of the boards. Maybe it's because we seem to have lost a few comrades along the way. Maybe....no hopefully, it'll gain something in the years to come.


Here's hoping anyway.

I've only recently joined but here is my two penneth . . .

When I used to frequent TMF, there was a 'Best of Boards' where I could see the top recommended posts of that day. Or the week. Or the month etc. Does such a thing exist here? I haven't been able to find it. There's no better way of sorting through the chaff than that, plus it actually educates you if you care to read each post from Boards that you normally wouldn't frequent.

Favourite Boards - is there something similar? Used to be great to see how many posts had been made on your favourite boards since the last time you visited.

Just a couple of things I miss from years ago but I suspect that the creators of this site have already tried to answer these questions many times. Apologies if that is the case guys.


HYD

[PinkDalek]

I've only recently joined but here is my two penneth . . .

When I used to frequent TMF, there was a 'Best of Boards' ...

stooz has managed to introduce "Thumbs up", which has resulted in him creating a Best of equivalent. Available via Quick Links top left, under the header Best Posts. It is time restricted, so you can't see earlier "Best Posts".

Then there is the option to receive Notifications etc. Much of this has been discussed on the equivalent here of Improve the/Using the etc, namely the Biscuit Bar:

viewforum.php?f=19

Probably way too much to read over there but the phpBB FAQ may also help faq.php.

[Howyoudoin]

I've only recently joined but here is my two penneth . . .

When I used to frequent TMF, there was a 'Best of Boards' ...

stooz has managed to introduce "Thumbs up", which has resulted in him creating a Best of equivalent. Available via Quick Links top left, under the header Best Posts. It is time restricted, so you can't see earlier "Best Posts".

Then there is the option to receive Notifications etc. Much of this has been discussed on the equivalent here of Improve the/Using the etc, namely the Biscuit Bar:

viewforum.php?f=19

Probably way too much to read over there but the phpBB FAQ may also help faq.php.

Excellent, thanks PD.

I'll have a look and report back.

The creators of this site have clearly spent an enormous amount of time trying to recreate the TMF experience, even if that is not immediately clear from a first visit.

Top stuff.


HYD