The beginning of the end

[JMN2]

In quite a few EU countries in retail the debit card transaction info goes directly to the tax office.

[UncleEbenezer]

In quite a few EU countries in retail the debit card transaction info goes directly to the tax office.

Citation needed.

Even if the intention were there, where are the miraculous IT systems that could deliver up that information? Are huge IT cockups uniquely British?

[JMN2]

In quite a few EU countries in retail the debit card transaction info goes directly to the tax office.

Citation needed.

Even if the intention were there, where are the miraculous IT systems that could deliver up that information? Are huge IT cockups uniquely British?

I am actually trying to find the article which I read today. Apparently Finnish tax office is very keen and looking into this because it is reality in several European countries, Estonia, Denmark, Sweden perhaps. It's operational with retail companies, and makes tax returns easier and cheaper for the businesses. All this from my memory, I spent about one minute reading and there were reader comments so I'm trying to track it down from my browser history.

Found it, needs translating:
https://www.hs.fi/talous/art-2000005724387.html

[stevensfo]

Every penny you spend on a card will be analysed, dissected and filed....and (probably) the data sold on to people unknown who can make lots of money by sending you even more 'personalised' advertising .

I guess the supermarkets already do that with the info from loyalty cards. So, assuming you use a loyalty card and debit card, somewhere out there is information about not only how much you spent, when, where etc, but what exactly you bought, how much and how often.

With face recognition and tracking of phones, they probably know when you use their loos and how long you spend 'browsing' in the women's lingerie dept. Should sell for thousands!


Steve

[Gengulphus]

Debit card payments have overtaken cash use for the first time, new figures show, as contactless technology takes a firm hold on day-to-day spending.
...
Thoughts?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44496513

And immediately after the bit you quote from that link:

A total of 13.2 billion debit card payments were made last year, a rise of 14% on the previous year, according to banking trade body UK Finance.

That outstripped the 13.1 billion cash payments made, as the use of notes and coins dropped by 15%.

Oh yes? How on earth do UK Finance think they know how many cash payments are happening? Are they simply ignoring the ones that go nowhere near their data gathering? Or are they estimating them, and if so, how?

I've tried to find the answers to those questions, but I haven't found them in the summary report available for free on their website, and the full report costs £3,000+VAT! (And its table of contents, which is available for free, doesn't inspire me with confidence that the answers are there either...)

If anyone wants to read the free stuff (or indeed even pay for the full report!), it's available from https://www.ukfinance.org.uk/statistics/payments/.

On the actual conclusions, I can say that I'm pleased to be bucking the trends! My use of cash is actually somewhat up in recent years, as I got fed up with lots of small transactions cluttering up my bank statements. The occasional reasonably substantial cash machine withdrawal and using cash to make the small payments tidies them up significantly.

As for contactless cards, I've asked my banks for a non-contactless replacement whenever they've sent me one. Quite apart from the fact that I don't want payments small enough to be done contactlessly to clutter up my bank statements, they strike me as only a bit better than walking around with £20 notes hanging out of my back pocket! (And yes, I know that the banks say that the contactless payment system is very secure - but I also know a fair amount about electronic security from my former job, and well, the banks would say that, wouldn't they?)

Gengulphus

[Lootman]

I can say that I'm pleased to be bucking the trends! My use of cash is actually somewhat up in recent years, as I got fed up with lots of small transactions cluttering up my bank statements. The occasional reasonably substantial cash machine withdrawal and using cash to make the small payments tidies them up significantly.

Yep, I am with you there. Cash is king, as they say - anonymous, fungible and always welcome. Various categories of workers much prefer cash including waiters (so that the restaurant managers do not take their tips) and contractors ("VAT? What's that?")

I have a personal preference for 50 pound notes. It allows me to bypass the bank's interference staff who try and steer me to a machine. And 50's always get the attention of the other party like nothing else.

As for contactless cards, I've asked my banks for a non-contactless replacement whenever they've sent me one. Quite apart from the fact that I don't want payments small enough to be done contactlessly to clutter up my bank statements, they strike me as only a bit better than walking around with £20 notes hanging out of my back pocket! (And yes, I know that the banks say that the contactless payment system is very secure - but I also know a fair amount about electronic security from my former job, and well, the banks would say that, wouldn't they?)

Again I agree although less important to me than any claim that a bank makes that the cards are "secure" is the promise to make me whole for any problems. Like the direct debit "guarantee", as long as I get reimbursed for any problem "no questions asked" then I will use these cards. But damn them to hell if they ever renege on that "I can't lose" promise.

[UncleEbenezer]

I tried hard to resist contactless payments, and still won't use them when there's a choice.

Then our buses started accepting contactless, while not accepting cards in any other form. And paying cash on the buses can be a pain: they tend to be reluctant to give change. So inevitably there came a time when the choices were contactless or nothing. Bah, hooked - though I've still never used it anywhere else.

Last time I was in Sweden, folks advised me I needed to book a train ticket online. The station I was travelling from is unmanned and has no facility to sell me a ticket, so no choice but to go to their website and pay by card. No need to print it: just have it on the phone, and the ticket inspector pointed a barcode reader at it.

[Lootman]

Last time I was in Sweden, folks advised me I needed to book a train ticket online. The station I was travelling from is unmanned and has no facility to sell me a ticket, so no choice but to go to their website and pay by card. No need to print it: just have it on the phone, and the ticket inspector pointed a barcode reader at it.

So what does someone without a smart phone, mobile device or internet access do in that situation? Walk?

In the UK if there is no ability to buy a ticket at the station then you can buy one on the train with no penalty.

[Dod101]

I am torn between carrying around a load of small coins and the undoubted convenience of using a contactless card. In Aussieland where I was recently, contactless was almost mandatory, cash was looked at very suspiciously. I don't care if someone wants to track my expenses, they are not going to find anything that is not replicated many times over I am sure so I will use contactless where I can. As for clogging up my bank statements, I scarcely look at them when they arrive as I check them daily via internet banking and pick up anything unusual then.

Dod

[stevensfo]

On the actual conclusions, I can say that I'm pleased to be bucking the trends! My use of cash is actually somewhat up in recent years, as I got fed up with lots of small transactions cluttering up my bank statements.

Same here, and I'd go so far to say that I use cash a LOT more than ever before, especially after the financial crisis. It's also a matter of data protection and privacy, concepts which although still trumpeted out loud, are, in true Orwellian style slowly becoming more and more one-sided.

As for contactless, I simply prefer not to use it and have two colleagues who stopped using them after realising that small amount were sometimes taken off twice. In theory, you should be able to disactivate this function easily. I have an app for my Revolut card that allows me to turn the contactless function on/off as required. Failing that, a small snip in the side breaks the antenna. A card vasectomy?


Steve

[JMN2]

I use contactless whenever I can except in pubs and restaurants. After a pizza or a burger I want to leave quickly and not feel pressurised about the tip. I tip quite generously, say the bill is £16 for a pizza and a coke. Instead of feeling awkward deciding the tip in front of the waitress and wasting time in general I just drop a twenty and say my goodbyes when walking out.

If one is worried about security one can line one's wallet with some foil.

[didds]

So what does someone without a smart phone, mobile device or internet access do in that situation? Walk?

This is the rub. We cant tragvel on London Buses now it seems if there are more than two of us (family wise) as we only have two contactless cards between us, and you cannot double up on one card (I presume as a can;t-accidentally-charge-twice measure).

In the UK if there is no ability to buy a ticket at the station then you can buy one on the train with no penalty.

though the reality is at times you have to have an argument with the ticket chappy on the train over it so as not to be charged a penalty fare

didds

[tjh290633]

You are lucky to find a "Ticket chappy" on one of our trains, which are driver only. Just occasionally the Revenue Control team will target a train, but by evening the barriers are all open anyway.

TJH

[Alaric]

We cant travel on London Buses now it seems if there are more than two of us (family wise) as we only have two contactless cards between us, and you cannot double up on one card (I presume as a can't-accidentally-charge-twice measure).

You can buy an Oyster card or cards from newsagents or other outlets and also top it up. If the Oyster doesn't have any season tickets or Railcard discounts loaded, it can be used by anyone.

[Slarti]

Another one who doesn't pay by debit card, at least since they stopped online charges for credit cards.

I pay everything by cash. Or credit card, for larger items, where section 75 protection kicks in, and for pay at pump.

Slarti

[didds]

We cant travel on London Buses now it seems if there are more than two of us (family wise) as we only have two contactless cards between us, and you cannot double up on one card (I presume as a can't-accidentally-charge-twice measure).

You can buy an Oyster card or cards from newsagents or other outlets and also top it up. If the Oyster doesn't have any season tickets or Railcard discounts loaded, it can be used by anyone.

Yes... of ccourse that rather assumes that where one s parking, to get on a bus, there is such an outlet handy, and doesn't require tieing up some ammount pf cash fo0r a once yearly usage. eg if its a minimum of a fiver, that £15 outlay for three people - but if we only use say £3 each that's £12 that is "dead" sittiung on a oyster card for a year, maybe two.

The bottom line here that as extremely sporadic visitors to London, we have no need normally for anything like an oyster card. And its another piece of flap to have to go through just to get wherever we are going. Once a year (if that).

didds

[Gengulphus]

The bottom line here that as extremely sporadic visitors to London, we have no need normally for anything like an oyster card. And its another piece of flap to have to go through just to get wherever we are going. Once a year (if that).

About the same for me as regards visiting London properly, rather more often as regards travelling via London. But still no need for an Oyster card: if I'm travelling via London, the train ticket covers it; if I'm visiting London properly, a 'Travelcard' ticket covers the entire day's travel.

But I'm not against Oyster cards and other contactless cards that have a limited supply of credit on them at any one time - indeed, if the banks were to offer a contactless 'small payments only' card with a limited amount of credit that couldn't be overdrawn and could only be topped up by accessing one's bank account by another method and choosing a top-up option, I would probably be an early adopter... Of course, maybe they do - I don't guarantee to be aware of every new development! ;-)

Gengulphus

[kiloran]

I have a personal preference for 50 pound notes. It allows me to bypass the bank's interference staff who try and steer me to a machine. And 50's always get the attention of the other party like nothing else.

Where does the local newsagent steer you to when you proffer a £50 note for a mars bar?

--kiloran

[didds]

... to be more specific our London visits requiring a bus are

* drive to sunbury
* catch the bus to Twickenham (having not walked past any local shops etc to buy a travelcard/oyster card etc cos there ain't none between where we park and the bus stop!)
* watch rugby
* catch the bus to Sunbury
* drive home.

errr... that's it.

didds

[Lootman]

I have a personal preference for 50 pound notes. It allows me to bypass the bank's interference staff who try and steer me to a machine. And 50's always get the attention of the other party like nothing else.

Where does the local newsagent steer you to when you proffer a £50 note for a mars bar?

I'm conscious of that and try and employ common sense. Say it's a round of drinks that costs £22.60. I might offer a £50 note plus £2.60 in change. They give me back a 20 and a 10.

I've not had anyone refuse to take one although if they literally could not make change I'd pay another way. A more common reaction is to hold the 50 up to a light to see if it is a forgery. I get that a lot but I only ever get them from a bank.

Now, if you were trying to use a 500 Euro note or a 1,000 Swiss Franc note, then you'd probably run into issues. I guess only drug dealers use those as common currency